Why won't God convince atheists?

[Hatuey]

Many atheists are so for valid and defendable reasons. Why would a punishing deity choose not to make himself known to reasonable people who do not believe he exists?

A decent god would know how to convince decent people to believe and care for him as he cared for those decent people.

What sort of god doesn't care to convince sensible people that he exists?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 625 by Faithful One]

Many atheists are so for valid and defendable reasons. Why would a punishing deity choose not to make himself known to reasonable people who do not believe he exists?

A decent god would know how to convince decent people to believe and care for him as he cared for those decent people.

What sort of god doesn't care to convince sensible people that he exists?

Magical fairy unicorns from OZ

Do you think one should have to " convince " another to care for them ? You do understand what this would breed , do you not ?

Yes! One SHOULD have to "convince" another that it EXISTS, if it wants another to CARE for them. IF people don't KNOW that this god exists, then HOW can we believe that it does?

Why CARE about something we don't know even EXISTS?
Do you care about magical fairy unicorns from OZ?

I DO think that magical fairy unicorns from OZ should "convince" us that they exist, and THEN we can take a look a whether they merit our CARING about them. Maybe they are psychopathic magical fairy unicorns from OZ and should NOT be cared for.

And IF we don't even BELIEVE in this god... I guess it's HELL for us, right?

If one should not care enough to have someone he cares about know he even EXISTS.... what's the point of all of that caring?

I think that believers ARE convinced that this god exists, and that it DOES care about things.

Those who are NOT convinced that this god exists, also don't believe that it can CARE about anything.

Someone who does NOT exist would have the same characteristics as the god that doesn't care to convince non believers. Because there is NO NEED to convince BELIEVERS.. they are ALREADY convinced. It's just the NON BELIEVERS ( like me ) who need CONVINCING at all.

So, if your god doesn't CARE to convince me that he at least EXISTS .. then it really doesn't care about me at all. SO MUCH for your "caring god" hypothesis. It ONLY seems to care to convince those who are ALREADY convinced, and the others can literally or figuratively go to hell.

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 626 by Blastcat]

So, if your god doesn't CARE to convince me that he at least EXISTS .. then it really doesn't care about me at all. SO MUCH for your "caring god" hypothesis. It ONLY seems to care to convince those who are ALREADY convinced, and the others can literally or figuratively go to hell.

You are misunderstanding here. When I say "convince " someone to care about them , I mean take actions to sway their opinion, they should care on their own,,not have to be convinced to care.

Should you mean "convince ", in the sense that God should reveal himself , then let us decide , then it leads right back to the what the first type of "convincing " breeds , that which is insincerity.

The God of the bible according to Christians gave us life. What bigger gift can you receive ? I would say this shows caring. God convincing you that he exists and just give you and everyone else eternal life , would take away the whole purpose the God of the bible created man/woman , in the first place . This is the one thing that many not of the faith do not get, even when vividly explained to them, so if you do not understand this premise , I can surely enlighten you some more , but my basic breakdown here should suffice.

There is no sincerity in "convincing " one to care. This reeks of desperation , a most unappealing trait of humans and an impossible trait of God.

[Zzyzx]

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The God of the bible according to Christians gave us life.

That is simply a claim or story that has not been shown to be true.

What bigger gift can you receive ? I would say this shows caring.

The "gift" is hypothetical. The "care" is hypothetical. An imaginary gift is of no value.

God convincing you that he exists and just give you and everyone else eternal life , would take away the whole purpose the God of the bible created man/woman , in the first place .

Creation of humans by God is conjecture.

This is the one thing that many not of the faith do not get, even when vividly explained to them,

Explaining an opinion supported only by ancient opinions is not convincing to those who value truth and accuracy " and verifiable information.

so if you do not understand this premise , I can surely enlighten you some more , but my basic breakdown here should suffice.

Opinion noted. Have "enlightenment" efforts been successful in these debates?

There is no sincerity in "convincing " one to care. This reeks of desperation , a most unappealing trait of humans and an impossible trait of God.

Christianity seems to put quite an effort into convincing " which "reeks of desperation" and is "unappealing". It is known as proselytization, "spreading the word", recruitment.

Some desperation is warranted since Christianity is declining in educated, advanced, technological societies (radically in some cases " particularly European nations).

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 628 by Zzyzx]

Faithful One wrote:

God convincing you that he exists and just give you and everyone else eternal life , would take away the whole purpose the God of the bible created man/woman , in the first place .

Creation of humans by God is conjecture.

This is not conjecture. Please view this as according to the words of the bible , not according to whether God created humans. These are the sensibilities of the religion of Christianity, which is all about sincerity in your worship to God . This is the philosophy of Christianity , not "conjecture ".

Most millionaire parents do not just hand the "keys to the kingdom ",(the wise ones anyway) over to their kids freely , they must earn this reward ,if that is what they wish.

This would surely spoil one ,,not build character, or an appreciation for what they have recieved. There would also be no sincere appreciation to the parents , as they would simply have felt entitled , self entitled, just being given something off this magnitude, with zero reciprocity.

The parents would expect them to be educated , grow a work ethic Struggle for a bit , then they could eventually become worthy of the "keys to the kingdom". The parents only desire would be a sincere appreciation of what they have given their children , nothing monetary , or material.


The same result of being "spoiled " would result if God just came down and granted all eternal life. There would be no true sincerity in the thankfulness of the gift of life. This would go against one of the main reasons God created is in the first place .

[Zzyzx]

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God convincing you that he exists and just give you and everyone else eternal life , would take away the whole purpose the God of the bible created man/woman , in the first place .

Creation of humans by God is conjecture.

This is not conjecture.

Conjecture is defined as: the formation or expression of an opinion or theory without sufficient evidence for proof

Please view this as according to the words of the bible , not according to whether God created humans. These are the sensibilities of the religion of Christianity, which is all about sincerity in your worship to God . This is the philosophy of Christianity , not "conjecture ".

These debates are not bound by the words of the Bible or the sensibilities of Christianity or sincerity of worshiping God or by the philosophy of Christianity.

Christianity is just one of tens of thousands of religions that CLAIM knowledge of supernatural entities and events. What the religions have in common is LACK of verifiable evidence that they represent anything more than imagination. Their statements and claims are conjecture (even if given loftier labels).

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 630 by Zzyzx]

Faithful One wrote:
Please view this as according to the words of the bible , not according to whether God created humans. These are the sensibilities of the religion of Christianity, which is all about sincerity in your worship to God . This is the philosophy of Christianity , not "conjecture ".

These debates are not bound by the words of the Bible or the sensibilities of Christianity or sincerity of worshiping God or by the philosophy of Christianity.

Christianity is just one of tens of thousands of religions that CLAIM knowledge of supernatural entities and events. What the religions have in common is LACK of verifiable evidence that they represent anything more than imagination. Their statements and claims are conjecture (even if given loftier labels).

You are deflecting off the point. This is to show what I am saying is not conjecture. This is just the philosophy of Christianity. This is not what I think , this is what I know.

What I have told you should be understandable , whether you believe or not. You could disagree with the philosophy , or state that I am wrong on it , but calling it conjecture shows that you are not understanding what I am putting down here.

[Hamsaka]

[Replying to post 627 by Faithful One]

You are misunderstanding here. When I say "convince " someone to care about them , I mean take actions to sway their opinion, they should care on their own,,not have to be convinced to care.

In order for a person to care about something, that 'something' ought to exist in the first place. If that something is there, then caring about it (for instance) comes naturally.

It must be very difficult to wrap one's head around the fact that other people don't believe your God is even there to 'be concerned' about. If you tried to be 'concerned' about Odin (and failed, of course), you would understand the atheist point of view. To us, your god is as 'not there' as Odin, or Zeus.

Should you mean "convince ", in the sense that God should reveal himself , then let us decide , then it leads right back to the what the first type of "convincing " breeds , that which is insincerity.

That is bass ackwards. You can't fathom that your God does not exist to us. We aren't convinced your god is even there. And then, you do some kind of fun-house mirror 'opposite' game, and claim that if your god did reveal himself to us, finally, our conviction would be insincere? Is it only 'sincere' if you believe without seeing, first?

Basically, what you and other Christians are telling us to do is 'believe' your god exists before we receive confirmation that it does exist. Blessed is he who believes without seeing, right? So if I were to just . . . I don't know, DECIDE to force myself to believe in your god, then I would be doing it right?

How does a person make themselves believe something before we are sure it exists? Do you repeat it over and over to yourself, in your head, until . . . what? Until our mind gets in the habit? I've heard of this 'technique', it was popular about twenty years ago when 'positive affirmations' were pop psychology's latest answer. You were to repeat certain positive sayings to yourself over and over again, even write it down, say it out loud. "I am a powerful person. I deserve that raise." You say that over and over again until your brain makes a habit out of it. And then, you can go to your boss and ask for a raise with confidence. If your self-esteem is low, you can look at yourself in the mirror and repeat over and over "I am a valuable, worthwhile person." Over and over and over again . . . until you believe it.

Is that how faith in God really develops? By affirmations repeated over and over until something in your head 'clicks'? It was a silly pop psychology, even though it probably did work for some people. Apparently, it works very well to get yourself to believe something you don't really believe.

The trouble is that you have to constantly reinforce it, do constant affirmations about believing in God because that dude is INVISIBLE, UNDETECTABLE, and whatever people claim your God does is not distinguishable from chance, luck, coincidence and . . . well, an enforced 'brain habit'.

When it comes to gods, I take things seriously. I'm not going to mess around with a real god. I'm going to get to 'know' this god, surely it will have knowledge and reassurance and unimaginably wonderful things about it, and what it does. I'm not going to sit around and do positive affirmations until I 'believe' because that is not 'belief'. That is brainwashing. I have enough trouble figuring out what's really going on without deliberately muddying the waters in my own head by forcing or 'training' myself to believe something that I've never seen, known or experienced.

And what in the world would I do that for? So far, the 'pros' of manipulating my brain circuitry to believe something I don't believe is a range of vague promises in an afterlife. "Avoid Hell, Care About God". I wonder how many believers only care so they don't get crisped in that scary, promised afterlife? I don't 'trick' myself into believing based on a really scary afterlife or even a really wonderful one, while most of humanity is burning in Hell. If I have a choice -- which I appear to have, to get myself to believe before I really do -- it won't be that god. There's a ton of better choices, if I'm going to get myself to believe in a god, that is for darn sure.

The God of the bible according to Christians gave us life.

No 'god' gave me or anyone else life. That's what you and other theists believe, it's one of many things you've gotten yourself to believe by constant reinforcement over the years. You just SAY it, over and over again, and perhaps expect it to suddenly become 'true' to me (as long as I am willing to force myself to 'believe' it or repeat it enough). You have no idea what it's like to be an atheist. Not a clue.

Instead, many Christians readily accept ridiculous mumbo jumbo about what atheists really believe because it is a hell of a lot less terrifying than to acknowledge God genuinely does not exist for them.

What bigger gift can you receive ? I would say this shows caring. God convincing you that he exists and just give you and everyone else eternal life , would take away the whole purpose the God of the bible created man/woman , in the first place .

Agreed. If something that . . . I dunno, simple, can unravel the whole purpose of God and the bible, there's something very wrong with the purpose of God and the Bible. One really should consider the implications of a belief system that cannot sustain itself without

-- constant reinforcement (daily bible study, prayers, church attendance, proselytizing)

-- promises of an Afterlife based on the superstitions and social control mechanisms of ancient Hebrews and the three year career of a young man called Jesus who lived before we knew leprosy was not 'demons' or punishment for sin

-- literally abandoning the basics of common sense and rationality in order to salvage 'the whole purpose of God and the Bible'

This is the one thing that many not of the faith do not get, even when vividly explained to them,

Is there any wonder they don't get it? We're being told to force ourselves to 'believe' something before it can be shown to be true. In the very, very least . . . a good example goes quite far. The track record of half-truths, obfuscation and atrocious 'rationales' for accepting the primitive beliefs of an ancient desert people is setting a BAD example, especially regarding those who adhere to fundamentalist/literalist Christian beliefs. Why would *I* want to be like that? What respect is there for theists like this who want to legislate their preferred Biblical laws and sexual taboos and force them onto everyone? That is not a respectable person I would want to emulate.

so if you do not understand this premise , I can surely enlighten you some more , but my basic breakdown here should suffice.

I doubt it.

There is no sincerity in "convincing " one to care. This reeks of desperation , a most unappealing trait of humans and an impossible trait of God.

Then stop proselytizing altogether? Are you convinced, yourself? Therefore, you must be insincere. You weren't born believing in the Bible god, you were at some point convinced yourself. Since there is no sincerity in convincing anyone to care about your god, how then do you work around this insincerity deep at the heart of your faith? I have to agree again, at how dreadfully unappealing it can be to watch some Christians attempt to dictate interpersonal reality by manipulating semantics, while 'between the lines' the insincerity percolates away.

I've already heard ad nauseum about the 'importance' of having faith, that it is the most important thing to have. When it comes to buying the Christian message, I agree, without having 'faith' in the foolishness of God, which is wiser than man's best wisdom, the whole thing unravels, and then what do you have? Just foolishness, and a life-long struggle to keep it from unraveling further. No thanks.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 627 by Faithful One]

So, if your god doesn't CARE to convince me that he at least EXISTS .. then it really doesn't care about me at all. SO MUCH for your "caring god" hypothesis. It ONLY seems to care to convince those who are ALREADY convinced, and the others can literally or figuratively go to hell.

You are misunderstanding here. When I say "convince " someone to care about them , I mean take actions to sway their opinion, they should care on their own,,not have to be convinced to care.

This discussion is about GOD caring to prove that it EXISTS... you seem confused because of the word "CARE". Only people who believe this god is worth caring about WILL care.

Those who don't even know it exists CANT care about it.

The god doesn't seem to want to convince people that it EXISTS. This discussion is about convincing people of God's EXISTENCE .. and not about who cares about who. Let's all pretend that everyone cares about everyone. But your GOD doesn't seem to want to convince non believers that IT EXISTS... so, or course, left on our own with no evidence that it DOES exist, we AREN'T convinced.

God DOES NOT seem to "care" to convince nonbelievers IN HIS OWN EXISTENCE.

Non believers will NOT CARE about something for which there is no EVIDENCE.
You care about this god, and you believe that this god cares about you. BUT you have a BELIEF about a caring god. We do NOT have a believe in a caring god.

WHY do you think that if god really exists, it would not want to CONVINCE people that it at least EXISTS? It's like it WANTS to not be believed by as many thinking people as possible. If the god exists, it seems that it only wants the GULLIBLE people in heaven.

Those who use CRITICAL THINKING are not allowed in Heaven

God convincing you that he exists and just give you and everyone else eternal life , would take away the whole purpose the God of the bible created man/woman , in the first place .

So you really think that the WHOLE purpose the god of the Bible created man/woman in the first place is to BELIEVE WITHOUT EVIDENCE? What a strange purpose that would be. It LITERALLY makes no sense at all. God creates an entire universe to get GULLIBLE people to worship him.. when he can GET THAT in the blink of an eye.

This god seems to suffer from very serious "mental disorders". It is AT LEAST psychopathic, seems delusional, and has personality disorders, probably borderline personality disorder.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-cond ... n-20030111

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 633 by Blastcat]

Faithful One wrote:
God convincing you that he exists and just give you and everyone else eternal life , would take away the whole purpose the God of the bible created man/woman , in the first place .


So you really think that the WHOLE purpose the god of the Bible created man/woman in the first place is to BELIEVE WITHOUT EVIDENCE? What a strange purpose that would be. It LITERALLY makes no sense at all. God creates an entire universe to get GULLIBLE people to worship him.. when he can GET THAT in the blink of an eye.

This god seems to suffer from very serious "mental disorders". It is AT LEAST psychopathic, seems delusional, and has personality disorders, probably borderline personality disorder.

Sir you have missed the whole point entirely. Please go over it again. I gave excellent analogy on this thread , but the message seems to be completely lost.


Let us try one more time .

[Replying to post 628 by Zzyzx]


Quote:
Faithful One wrote:

God convincing you that he exists and just give you and everyone else eternal life , would take away the whole purpose the God of the bible created man/woman , in the first place .

Creation of humans by God is conjecture.



This is not conjecture. Please view this as according to the words of the bible , not according to whether God created humans. These are the sensibilities of the religion of Christianity, which is all about sincerity in your worship to God . This is the philosophy of Christianity , not "conjecture ".

Most millionaire parents do not just hand the "keys to the kingdom ",(the wise ones anyway) over to their kids freely , they must earn this reward ,if that is what they wish.

This would surely spoil one ,,not build character, or an appreciation for what they have recieved. There would also be no sincere appreciation to the parents , as they would simply have felt entitled , self entitled, just being given something off this magnitude, with zero reciprocity.

The parents would expect them to be educated , grow a work ethic Struggle for a bit , then they could eventually become worthy of the "keys to the kingdom". The parents only desire would be a sincere appreciation of what they have given their children , nothing monetary , or material.


The same result of being "spoiled " would result if God just came down and granted all eternal life. There would be no true sincerity in the thankfulness of the gift of life. This would go against one of the main reasons God created is in the first place .

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 634 by Faithful One]


I won the debate because I say I won the debate !!!

Sir you have missed the whole point entirely. Please go over it again. I gave excellent analogy on this thread , but the message seems to be completely lost.

I am glad to hear that you are enthusiastic about your position. I am not.

God's WHOLE purpose is to NOT convince people that he exists !!

God convincing you that he exists and just give you and everyone else eternal life , would take away the whole purpose the God of the bible created man/woman , in the first place .

You say that the WHOLE purpose the god of the Bible has is that he should not CONVINCE anyone.
If this were true, the god would have to be mentally ill. What a bizzare purpose.

This is not conjecture. Please view this as according to the words of the bible , not according to whether God created humans.

It's TRUE because I say it's true !!!

1) You seem to not understand how the word "conjecture" is commonly used.
2) We should always support our assertions/arguments with evidence. To request that we take the assertion itself as evidence is not reasonable. The Bible cannot be used as evidence for "the words of the Bible".

Most MILLIONAIRE PARENTS are GODS !!!

Most millionaire parents do not just hand the "keys to the kingdom ",(the wise ones anyway) over to their kids freely , they must earn this reward ,if that is what they wish.

That's your "excellent analogy".
I think it's about as bad as analogies can get.

1) Most millionaire parents are not omniscient, omnipotent, perfectly benevolent. They are not GODS.
2) Most GOOD parents do not punish their children eternally.
3) Most GOOD parents DO convince their children that they EXIST.
4) Most GOOD parents DO NOT demand that their children simply OBEY them.
5) Most GOOD parents do NOT command their children to LOVE them.

Your god, if he were a human parent would be the WORST possible kind of parent imaginable. I would call the Child Protection Agency in an INSTANT.

No child should be subjected to psychopathic or otherwise mentally ill parents.

Perhaps you need to explain your position yet another time.