God, justice, fairness and perfection

[Justin108]

For this debate, I need you to answer each of these questions in order.

1. Is God perfectly fair and just?

2. If God is not perfectly fair and just, does that mean God is by definition imperfect?

3. Does everyone have an equal chance in getting into heaven?

4. If everyone does not have an equal chance in getting into heaven, is God still perfectly fair and just?

[ttruscott]

Does everyone have an equal chance at salvation? Does a born-into-Islam Iraqi or a born-into-Hindu Indian have the same chance at believing in Jesus, thereby receiving his salvation, than a born-into-Christianity American does?

They did when they were created, pre-earth.

Our earthly lives are a RESULT of our free will choices made pre-conception and only sinners who have rejected YHWH as their GOD or HIS plans for HIS creation by their free will are born as human, a process called sowing by Jesus.

Two levels of sin were chosen to send us to earth: a total rejection of YHWH as GOd resulting nint an eternalsinfulness

[Justin108]

Eastern Orthodoxy teaches that we are responsible for the amount of truth that has been delivered to us.

How is a person born into Christianity responsible for the "truth" that he receives every Sunday at church an after every Bible reading with his family? How is a Hindu responsible for his lack of "truth", living in a community without any Christians?

This conceivably means that a righteous Hindu who loves his neighbor would be saved over a Christian who has rejected the tenets of his faith and treats everyone disdainfully.

Can you back this with scripture? Or is this just wishful thinking? Mark 16:16 disagrees. It plainly states that he who does not believe is damned. It makes no exception for moral non-believers

[bluethread]

3. Does everyone have an equal chance in getting into heaven?

Only if chance is the only determinant

Regardless of if it's the only determinant, it is still a determinant. Some have an advantage that others lack. Therefor, it is not perfectly fair

So, are you saying that chance is a force? I thought chance was the absence of force. Isn't it supposed to be random? How can random be an advantage and how does one counter a random advantage, if there is such a thing?

[Justin108]

Does everyone have an equal chance at salvation? Does a born-into-Islam Iraqi or a born-into-Hindu Indian have the same chance at believing in Jesus, thereby receiving his salvation, than a born-into-Christianity American does?

They did when they were created, pre-earth.

Our earthly lives are a RESULT of our free will choices made pre-conception and only sinners who have rejected YHWH as their GOD or HIS plans for HIS creation by their free will are born as human, a process called sowing by Jesus.

Two levels of sin were chosen to send us to earth: a total rejection of YHWH as GOd resulting nint an eternalsinfulness

Scripture and/or other support please?

[Justin108]

So, are you saying that chance is a force? I thought chance was the absence of force. Isn't it supposed to be random?

Chance isn't always random. If I moved to North America, I would be far more likely to encounter a tornado than if I were to stay in South Africa. The action of moving to North America would not be random. That action is a force that influences chance.

Similarly, unless you believe that God somehow sprinkles us over the earth so we fall where we may, it would not be random. God's placement of our "souls" influence our eventual salvation (being born in India vs the USA). If God does simply sprinkle us randomly, then it is his lack of care for where we end up that then influences our eventual salvation. Either way, it is God's actions that lead to unfair advantages and disadvantages.

[earendil]

Does everyone have an equal chance at salvation? Does a born-into-Islam Iraqi or a born-into-Hindu Indian have the same chance at believing in Jesus, thereby receiving his salvation, than a born-into-Christianity American does? Now before you respond with "yes but not all believers go to heaven", that is still the first step. You need to believe (Mark 16:16) before taking the next step in accepting Jesus. People born the US have a far greater chance to believe in Jesus (step 1) than anyone born in India or Iraq does. So does everyone have an equal chance at receiving salvation?

This is really a great question and it bothers me to no end.

I was raised in a small US town where Christianity abounded. I often wonder what would have happened if (for example) I was born in the Palestinian Authority and raised to hate Jews and to desire to die in the act of slaughtering Jews (All of this is, in fact, taught to their children), would I have the wherewithall to rebell against such teaching or would I simply go along believing that it was the right thing to do?

I would love to be able to give a wise answer to this problem, but I just can't.

I also believe in reincarnation and if I should be reborn into such a situation, what would I do? I tell you, it is really terrifying....because I do not want to be that person.

[JLB32168]

How is a person born into Christianity responsible for the "truth" that he receives every Sunday at church an after every Bible reading with his family?

If one has been given the fullness of God’s truth, which is the claim of Christianity, then that person is responsible for A)abiding by that truth or B)refusing to do so. We don’t fault small children with defiance when they throw their food because they can’t understand the concept that waste of food is wrong. The same is not true for the teen who throws food in the garbage because s/he took to much and now can’t eat it because s/he knows that wasting food (when today will be someone’s last day due to malnutrition) is wrong.

How is a Hindu responsible for his lack of "truth", living in a community without any Christians?

Since all men are made in God’s Image and Likeness, according to Christian teaching, then all men possess some form of moral agency and are able to determine that despising beggars is evil and loving one’s neighbor is good. S/he won’t be held responsible for not knowing that God the Holy Trinity has created them with this moral agency, but s/he will be held responsible for following the conscience that is made in God’s Image and Likeness.

Can you back this with scripture? Or is this just wishful thinking?

It isn’t explicitly mentioned in Scripture, but I don’t see why that’s important since I’m Eastern Orthodox and we’re not sola scriptura kind of people, that is, we don’t hold that God stopped speaking when the Bible was finally compiled and we acknowledge that God did not intend all truth to be contained in the Bible. That is why Christ said He would remain with the Church and conceivably would address things that are occurring now, but which weren’t an issue 2000 years ago.

[Youkilledkenny]

[Replying to post 1 by Justin108]

I'm not sure we can accurately attribute any human characteristic to such a being if it is, indeed, perfect. It always amusses me when people try to do such a thing or claim they can understand such things. It's not possible.
What does just mean? Ask 100 people and you'll probably get 25-50 different answers. Many confuse JUST with VENGENCE in certain aspects.
The god in the Old Testament isn't just by my standards. The one in the New Testament seems to be more so...at least for a while.

[Justin108]

How is a person born into Christianity responsible for the "truth" that he receives every Sunday at church an after every Bible reading with his family?

If one has been given the fullness of God’s truth, which is the claim of Christianity, then that person is responsible for A)abiding by that truth or B)refusing to do so. We don’t fault small children with defiance when they throw their food because they can’t understand the concept that waste of food is wrong. The same is not true for the teen who throws food in the garbage because s/he took to much and now can’t eat it because s/he knows that wasting food (when today will be someone’s last day due to malnutrition) is wrong.

This isn't about what you do with the truth. That comes later. I'm still on step 1, which is receiving the truth. If everyone on earth receives the truth, then we can move on to step 2 which is what you do with that truth. The fact is, being born into a Christian family automatically provides you with step 1 (receiving the truth) and is therefore an unfair advantage over those not born into a Christian family and never receive step 1.

So I ask again, how is the person responsible for receiving step 1? Not step 2 where you accept or reject the truth, but step 1 where you receive the truth.

How is a Hindu responsible for his lack of "truth", living in a community without any Christians?

Since all men are made in God’s Image and Likeness, according to Christian teaching, then all men possess some form of moral agency and are able to determine that despising beggars is evil and loving one’s neighbor is good. S/he won’t be held responsible for not knowing that God the Holy Trinity has created them with this moral agency, but s/he will be held responsible for following the conscience that is made in God’s Image and Likeness.

Mark 16:16 states that non-believers are damned. That is the "truth" that I am referring to. The Hindu in India will be damned through no fault of his own for not having this truth and not believing. Mark 16:16 makes no exceptions

Can you back this with scripture? Or is this just wishful thinking?

It isn’t explicitly mentioned in Scripture, but I don’t see why that’s important since I’m Eastern Orthodox and we’re not sola scriptura kind of people, that is, we don’t hold that God stopped speaking when the Bible was finally compiled and we acknowledge that God did not intend all truth to be contained in the Bible. That is why Christ said He would remain with the Church and conceivably would address things that are occurring now, but which weren’t an issue 2000 years ago.

So basically you get to argue whatever you want without the need to back it up? You can claim that Mark 16:16 makes an exception for those born in India or Iraq just because your intuition assumes as much? If that's the case, then I'll be ending this discussion with you.

[Justin108]

[Replying to post 1 by Justin108]

I'm not sure we can accurately attribute any human characteristic to such a being if it is, indeed, perfect. It always amusses me when people try to do such a thing or claim they can understand such things. It's not possible.
What does just mean? Ask 100 people and you'll probably get 25-50 different answers. Many confuse JUST with VENGENCE in certain aspects.
The god in the Old Testament isn't just by my standards. The one in the New Testament seems to be more so...at least for a while.

I understand "just" as "fair", but I also understand that not everyone agrees with me on this, which is why I specifically mentioned "fair" in the OP.

Your response is nothing but special pleading. Christians claim we get our morality from God, yet claim that God somehow has a "special" morality that we cannot understand. Did God give us an inferior version of morality? Why would he do that? Why not implant in us an internal guide to know right from wrong in order for us to avoid wrongdoing?

Do you have any way to demonstrate that God is not unfair as my OP suggests? Or do you just have special pleading as a defence?