Is the Resurrurredction really a historical fact, or not?

[polonius]

In Paul’s oldest and first epistle, written in 51-52 AD, he states without qualification that:

“Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord,* will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.g17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together* with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.� 1 Thes 4:15-17

But it didn’t happen. Thus we must conclude that either Paul or the Lord were incorrect.

How much else of what Paul told us is also incorrect?

Recall, it was Paul who reported the Resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 written about 53-57 AD.

Was his story historically correct (did it actually happen) or is it just a story that was used by and embellished by the writers of the New Testament?

Since the basis of Christian belief is the historical fact of the Resurrection, let’s examine the evidence and see if the Resurrection really happened or can an analysis of the story show that it is improbable if not impossible.

Opinions?

[polonius]

[Replying to post 68 by JLB32168]

>> We have people who have had performed miracles – at least that’s the case with the Eastern Orthodox. <<

QUESTION: Do you have any hard evidence to prove this claim? Or are they just stories?

[JLB32168]

Do you have any hard evidence to prove this claim? Or are they just stories?

What is “hard� evidence?
St. Herman of AK rushed to the beach on Kodiak Island, AK after an earthquake because he feared a Tsunami would inundate the village. He placed an icon of Christ and Mary on the beach and the Tsunami came but didn’t pass the icon.
St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco once went to commune someone who was dying of Rabies. The sick man vomited up the particles and St. John was morally obliged to consume it since Orhtodox theology holds that the particle has become Christ’s body and blood and cannot be thrown away. St. John didn’t contract rabies.
I’ve already mentioned the icon of St. Anne in Philadelphia, which weeps olive oil scented with myrrh and which I simply cannot find a way to hoax (e.g. watching oil/myrrh well up out of the hand of the saint painted on an icon, which isn’t a stationary icon, but has been brought into the building – mobile.)
I also mentioned the appearance of something like a hologram of a woman – said to be the BVM – who appeared over a Church in Egypt during a time of great persecution of the Coptic Christians by the Muslim government, but in a time (i.e. 1968) when holograms weren’t even possible in 1st World countries, much less those that were 2nd/emerging world powers and after the government of the city of Zeitun cut the power an entire quadrant of the city where the Church was in efforts to expose the supposed hoax.
I don't actually think that these examples will move you.

[JLB32168]

The Resurrection was supposed to have occurred three days after the crucifixion. And th Ascension on the same day or 40 days later. That would have been c33 AD. But nobody recorded it.

The writers of the NT recorded it. Other than that, what written records of anything exist from the first century AD/CE besides texts from the Christian Bible that you can determine that no one wrote about it?

Actually it was believed that Jesus was the Messiah, but not himself divine until about 85 AD.

What is your source? Does Luke antedate John? Luke uses a motif common in the empire of the time – that of deities being born of virgins. Are you going to suggest that belief in a divine Jesus wasn’t around in Luke’s time and that his use of a deity-born-of-a-human-maiden theme was merely coincidence?

Since the Jews never taught this, the Christian invention theory is tenable.

The books of Enoch are Jewish works. They describe the messiah/Son of Man as being an eternal being that would be worshipped and who would judge the Gentiles – all aspects that Judaism attributes to the deity alone. You’re suggesting a monolithic Judaism of first century Roman Judea that simply didn’t exist.

On the contrary. the world's present largest religion is based on this story.

I maintain that asking for proof of a supernatural event that occurred two thousand years ago is a stupid request and that equally stupid is the attempt to prove such an event occurred. There’s a reason that religious faith is called faith.

[Zzyzx]

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The books of Enoch are Jewish works. They describe the messiah/Son of Man as being an eternal being that would be worshipped and who would judge the Gentiles – all aspects that Judaism attributes to the deity alone. You’re suggesting a monolithic Judaism of first century Roman Judea that simply didn’t exist.

Does Judaism, ancient or modern, accept Jesus as the messiah of the scriptures they wrote?

I maintain that asking for proof of a supernatural event that occurred two thousand years ago is a stupid request and that equally stupid is the attempt to prove such an event occurred. There’s a reason that religious faith is called faith.

Let's say "invalid request" rather than "stupid" – at least in debate that emphasizes civility.

I agree that it is invalid to ask for proof of the supernatural unless someone claims knowledge of such things. It is equally invalid to claim knowledge for what is only belief.

What a person believes is their business and not a matter for debate. What they claim as truth is a matter for debate.

Thus, if someone says "I believe God exists" I, for one, have no objection. However, if they claim "God exists" I ask for evidence to support the claim (as per Forum Rules and Guidelines).

[JLB32168]

Does Judaism, ancient or modern, accept Jesus as the messiah of the scriptures they wrote?

A theoretical council of Jamnia occurred and at that council all Jews who accepted Christ as messiah were excluded from synagogue fellowship. Apparently not a few Jews felt that Judaism had no problems with Christ being Messiah. Of course, the assertion was made that Judaism didn’t teach a divine messiah and clearly not all of Judaism taught this as evidenced by the Books of Enoch, which were Jewish works. That they aren’t in the canonical Tanakh is irrelevant since the Hebrew Scriptures weren’t canonized during or before Christ’s time.

Let's say "invalid request" rather than "stupid" – at least in debate that emphasizes civility.

I’m cool with that.

[Goose]

Your argument is rebutted already.

I fail to see how your assertion that the supernatural is beyond the scope of the historical method rebuts my arguments. Care to explain?

Do you deny miracles are outside the scope of the historical method?

I don't see why they should be. Can you make a logical argument as to why they are?

If you're going to argue historical methodology will grant you a resurrection, set up a head to head.

Let's do it here so others can participate. I have no problem whatsoever running the resurrection through a historical method. I'll even let you pick the method. I've already provided my evidence. You may begin whenever you are ready...

[polonius]

polonius.advice wrote:Do you have any hard evidence to prove this claim? Or are they just stories?

>>JBL askedWhat is “hard� evidence? <<

RESPONSE: "Hard" evidence is that which would convince a reasonable person of the factual basis for a claim.


>>St. Herman of AK rushed to the beach on Kodiak Island, AK after an earthquake because he feared a Tsunami would inundate the village. He placed an icon of Christ and Mary on the beach and the Tsunami came but didn’t pass the icon. <<

RESPONSE: How do you conclude that this was other than mere happenstance?

>>St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco once went to commune someone who was dying of Rabies. The sick man vomited up the particles and St. John was morally obliged to consume it since Orhtodox theology holds that the particle has become Christ’s body and blood and cannot be thrown away. St. John didn’t contract rabies. <<

RESPONSE: Not all people who come into contact with the bodily fluids of a person with rabies will contract it. But your theology of the Eucharist claim is of interest. Since we now know that ingested material eventually is excreted, doesn't such excretions from persons who have received communion contain the divine species? Matter is neither created nor destroyed.


>>I’ve already mentioned the icon of St. Anne in Philadelphia, which weeps olive oil scented with myrrh and which I simply cannot find a way to hoax (e.g. watching oil/myrrh well up out of the hand of the saint painted on an icon, which isn’t a stationary icon, but has been brought into the building – mobile.) <<

RESPONSE:

Good grief! What disinterested person carefully supervised the specimen collection and chain of custory, and which analytical laboratory determined it's composition?


>>I also mentioned the appearance of something like a hologram of a woman – said to be the BVM – who appeared over a Church in Egypt during a time of great persecution of the Coptic Christians by the Muslim government, but in a time (i.e. 1968) when holograms weren’t even possible in 1st World countries, much less those that were 2nd/emerging world powers and after the government of the city of Zeitun cut the power an entire quadrant of the city where the Church was in efforts to expose the supposed hoax. <<

RESPONSE:
So "something like a hologram of a woman" appeared? Are you claiming this to be a miracle.?

>>I don't actually think that these examples will move you.<<

RESPONSE: Since you haven't provided evidence of any of these events that can be examined, nor would they necessarily be miraculous if they had occurred, please forgive this readers reluctance to consider them proof of any miracle.

Just stories to reassure believers?

[polonius]

[Replying to post 75 by JLB32168]

The Books of Enoch are not part of scripture. Still, please cite any part that claims that Jesus was divine and the approximate year in which it was written.

[Zzyzx]

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Since you haven't provided evidence of any of these events that can be examined, nor would they necessarily be miraculous if they had occurred, please forgive this readers reluctance to consider them proof of any miracle.

Just stories to reassure believers?

This is typical of the "evidence" presented to "support" miracle claims (ancient or modern). Unverifiable stories that depict events that some regard as beyond understanding (since they do not know cause-and-effect or what really happened).

[JLB32168]

"Hard" evidence is that which would convince a reasonable person of the factual basis for a claim.

One gets the impression that you would require a video of the event and would insist it had been doctored since “miraculous� occurrences don’t exist.

How do you conclude that this was other than mere happenstance?

Assuming the occasion exists, I find it hard to believe that tsunami would stop for a picture. Isn’t it general knowledge that tsunamis don’t just surpass the beach but travel inland since they’re freak waves?

Since we now know that ingested material eventually is excreted, doesn't such excretions from persons who have received communion contain the divine species? Matter is neither created nor destroyed.

It would seem that the Judeo-Christian deity is able to violate the “law� of conservation of mass/energy since the concept creatio ex nihilio demands that.

What disinterested person carefully supervised the specimen collection and chain of custory, and which analytical laboratory determined it's composition?

What reasonable explanation would there be for any liquid to well up out of the hand of someone painted on a board?

So "something like a hologram of a woman" appeared? Are you claiming this to be a miracle.?

Lady made of light, power is cut in that quadrant of the city, lady remains
Yup – that strikes me as a strange phenomenon that would meet the classic definition of “miracle.�

Just stories to reassure believers?

The incident from Zeitun is well testified in the Egyptian Media – not that I think you’d be convinced. As with all the other reports – or any report of any nature older than 150 years, written evidence is all there is.