Open Challenge to Those who say they hear God

[rikuoamero]

This is going to be short and sweet. In the past six months on this site, I have talked with many a person. Some people say they communicate or hear or receive information from an all knowing god.
When debating the subject with them, they offer no reasonable answer as to why only they can hear this entity yet I or other non-believers cannot, despite my assertion to prior belief in this entity.
So I'm going to make a safe assumption. I will take it as safe since it has never happened. The assumption is that I will never hear directly or communicate with this all knowing entity.
Running with that, my challenge to those who claim to communicate with this being or hear it, is to repeat the sentence that is written on a sheet of paper in my drawer.
Yes, I've made this challenge before, but I thought I'd make it the focus of a thread all its own.
This sheet of paper has a detail about my life that is embarrassing. I have never told it to anyone. I am willing to risk it becoming public.

There is of course the problem of "What if someone DOES give you the line, but you refuse to acknowledge it?" Suffice to say, trust me on this that I am being sincere when I promise that if someone does say it, I will acknowledge it.

[Zzyzx]

.

If my ESP kicks in, I'll let you know.

If you can demonstrate having ESP without tricks that could be worth a million dollars from the Randi Challenge organization. Protocols are being revised for 2016 and beyond. http://web.randi.org/home/jref-status

The challenge has been operational since 1964 and no one has even come close.

[Peds nurse]

Once again, people can love apart from God. Do you think that atheists don't fall in love or marry? [/quote]

Do you believe there is "no God" for atheists just because they don't believe in a God?

I'm conversing with you based on your beliefs. It can't be that there exists a God for you, but not for the atheists. Either there is a God, or there isn't.

I believe quite the opposite. I believe that there is a God for atheists...I pray I can show them who He is!!

DI wrote:
There can be no question that their love is coming from their own sovereign soul.

Atheists believe they have souls? I wasn't aware....good information!

Sure, atheists have a right to call their basic human existence a "soul" if they want to. The only difference between their concept of a "soul" and the theist's concept of a "soul" is that the atheists accept that its a fleeting temporary condition, whilst the theists believe that some higher power will perpetuate their "soul" for eternity.

In fact, for a theist to proclaim that an atheist has no "soul" should be considered the most hateful remark possible.

Having said this some atheists do passionately argue that they don't believe in a "soul". But that's only because theists have claimed the patent rights to the concept and demand that a "soul" must be eternal or supernatural.

Obviously human semantics is a breeding ground for much disagreement and divisiveness. And that's truly ironic since we originally invented language and semantics as a means of facilitating communication. But it has grown to become a weapon where words are used as swords, and dictionaries are used as heavy artillery to assure certain devastation should anyone even attempt to try to convey an original thought.

But if we allow the term "soul" to simply refer to a truly sovereign entity, AND we allow that mortal humans do indeed have free will and are therefore sovereign entities, then even atheists who's soul will die with their body still have a "soul (i.e. an underlying sovereignty entity of free will thought and action)

So yes, these terms can be difficult to discuss, especially if standard dictionaries are permitted on the front lines to blow to smithereens any free will thought as I have expressed above.

Very well said DI!! I didn't mean any disrespect at all, I have just never heard nor thought of atheists addressing their souls!

Thanks for the Divine Insight

[Divine Insight]

I believe that there is a God for atheists...I pray I can show them who He is!!

I have several questions on this point:

1. Why should you be so concerned about showing atheists who God is?

2. If this were important to some God don't you think this omnipotent God would be in a far better position to do this himself?

3. Most atheists (at least the ones on this forum) have read the Bible, studied the scriptures, and words attributed to Jesus as well as the entire history of the God of the Old Testament. Many of them were raised as Christians and are fully aware of the teachings of Jesus and the God of the Old Testament.

So now for the very important questions:

A. Why would you think that it's your job to do something that both Jesus and God had failed at miserably?

and

B. How could it even be possible for you to succeed at something that both Jesus and God had failed to accomplish?

Please think about this for a while.

Consider the following:

I read the Old Testament (supposedly the inspired word or history of God and man).

I was not the least bit impressed by it or compelled to believe that it came from any all-wise supernatural God.

Thus if those stories were inspired by God in any way in an effort to get a message to me about him, he has clearly failed miserably to convince me of his existence, and especially of his character.

I also read the New Testament (supposedly the divinely protected words of Jesus).

Once again, I found nothing in the New Testament that convinced me that Jesus is anything more than a very self-contradictory collection of hearsay rumors, most likely extremely exaggerated upon, if not entire fabrications.

In short, Jesus himself (if he were real and had something to do with the writing of the New Testament) has failed to convince me that he is the Son of God or had a clue what he was talking about.

~~~~

Now, consider the implication if Peds Nurse, was to miraculously convince me that the Old Testament God and Jesus are real?

Peds Nurse would then have succeeded where both God and Jesus has previously failed.

Peds Nurse would necessarily be a better communicator and teacher than either the God of the Old Testament or Jesus.

In other words, the only possible way that you could convince many atheists that the Bible is true is if you could surpass both Jesus and God as an effective and compelling communicator.

When you stop and think about that, doesn't that suggest that it wouldn't even make any sense if you did succeed?

~~~~~~

You could even look at this from a different perspective entirely.

God inspired the writing of the Old Testament and commands and directs people on how he wants them to believe and behave.

After seeing that this isn't working very well, he sends his only begotten Son Jesus to correct his failed communication by teaching the people in-person.

That should surely be sufficient right?

But wait, it can't end there. Evidently Jesus wasn't very convincing and there are still a lot of non believers, and atheists.

So what does God have to do now?

Work through Peds Nurse to try to succeed at something that even Jesus failed at?

~~~~~

I just don't see the point in evangelism to be honest with you. Evangelism amounts to nothing more than a proclamation that neither Jesus nor God were convincing so maybe an evangelist could do better?

I think this is something every evangelist should seriously consider.

~~~~~

If God and Jesus could not convince me of their reality, I can't imagine an evangelist succeeding where they had failed.

That just makes no sense to me at all.


So please let me know your answers to the questions I have asked above.

Thanks.

[Realworldjack]

This is going to be short and sweet. In the past six months on this site, I have talked with many a person. Some people say they communicate or hear or receive information from an all knowing god.
When debating the subject with them, they offer no reasonable answer as to why only they can hear this entity yet I or other non-believers cannot, despite my assertion to prior belief in this entity.
So I'm going to make a safe assumption. I will take it as safe since it has never happened. The assumption is that I will never hear directly or communicate with this all knowing entity.
Running with that, my challenge to those who claim to communicate with this being or hear it, is to repeat the sentence that is written on a sheet of paper in my drawer.
Yes, I've made this challenge before, but I thought I'd make it the focus of a thread all its own.
This sheet of paper has a detail about my life that is embarrassing. I have never told it to anyone. I am willing to risk it becoming public.

There is of course the problem of "What if someone DOES give you the line, but you refuse to acknowledge it?" Suffice to say, trust me on this that I am being sincere when I promise that if someone does say it, I will acknowledge it.

I am not sure who you have spoken to that claims to "communicate or hear or receive information from an all knowing god." All I can do is communicate to you what the Bible has to say concerning this subject which would be, Hebrews Chapter 1 beginning in verse 1.

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

If you will notice everything that is said in this passage is in the past tense. It tells us how God had spoken, (past tense) in the past. It goes on to tell us, "in these last days, He has spoken," (past tense). With this being the case, then God has spoken, or has communicated. I understand this to mean, God has communicated with us, and this communication is sufficient. This means, we have all we need, and it is sufficient. But let us look at another passage from Scripture that tells us the same thing, which is 2 Timothy 3:16

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Notice here, this passage tells us, "All Scripture is God-breathed" which means God has, (past tense) communicated with us. It goes on to tell us all that this communication is good for, and then tells us, "so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." This means that all we need has been communicated to us. So much so, we have ALL we need for EVERY good work.

I take this to mean, God has communicated to us, all we need, and if there are those Christians who claim to have another means of communication with God, other than what He has already communicated, then I would suggest your challenge concerning the message in your socks drawer is a legitimate challenge, and I would also request they please private message me the winning lottery numbers for next week.

[rikuoamero]

I notice that in the what...12 hours? since I posted this challenge, no-one has yet to even attempt to answer the challenge. A debate has ensued between users here on what the term soul means (which I found fascinating), but so far, the challenge has gone unaddressed.
Why is that?
Should I listen to certain people who say "God won't be tested"? That doesn't jive with stories from the Old Testament, where Elijah did sorta what I am doing here, and supposedly revealed God to a crowd of non-believers and priests of Baal.
It doesn't jive with Bible passages that say God wants to talk to me, to have a relationship with me.
Well, succesfully passing this challenge would be a great step towards accomplishing that.

What I'm seeing here are believers who believe that there is a God, who believe that this God does things for them and for others, who manifests for them in a way that they can detect, who say they feel his presence...but when I, a non-believer, ask for the same, they have to come up with all sorts of excuses why I can't have it. Excuses that are contradictory to the claims of love and relationship-wanting that they proclaim to be behind.

I would also request they please private message me the winning lottery numbers for next week.

Notice here the kind of thinking involved in this sentence. I deliberately did NOT ask for anything that would be selfish, such as lottery numbers. Just a detail about myself that would be embarrassing for others to know.
I am not asking out of a selfish desire. I am not asking so I can go "Aha! Checkmate believers!"
All I want are for people who do make claims of hearing a god, or of communicating with said God (and please, don't attempt to pretend that no such claim has ever been made on this site!) to actually put their money where their mouth is.

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to post 15 by rikuoamero]

It doesn't jive with Bible passages that say God wants to talk to me, to have a relationship with me.

Tell you what, before we begin how about you tell me where in the Bible I can find what you are describing above?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 15 by rikuoamero]

It doesn't jive with Bible passages that say God wants to talk to me, to have a relationship with me.

Tell you what, before we begin how about you tell me where in the Bible I can find what you are describing above?

I must ask...why? Isn't this what (most) Christians believe? That God exists, that God is real, that God loves them and loves all? That God has a relationship or wants a relationship with us?
I must ask what is your reasoning for asking this question. Are you attempting to refute my challenge? If so, then this is most odd, since the direction you seem to be taking is one where you make God out to not want a relationship with me...

Anyway, you asked so...
John 10:27-28

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

tam gave me that quote (if not this one, then one that spoke about sheep that is very similar)

[Zzyzx]

.

3. Most atheists (at least the ones on this forum) have read the Bible, studied the scriptures, and words attributed to Jesus as well as the entire history of the God of the Old Testament. Many of them were raised as Christians and are fully aware of the teachings of Jesus and the God of the Old Testament.

This should be made abundantly clear by C&A sub-forum Guideline #6. Realize that most participants here are strong debaters and have a vast knowledge of Christianity and the Bible (including non-theists). If you make any claims, be ready to support your claims with evidence if asked. Non-Biblical evidence would go far among non-theists.

In spite of that admonition and abundant evidence in threads that many Non-Christians are "fully aware of the teachings of Jesus and the God of the Old Testament", many Apologists (or Christians in general?) seem to think they have superior understanding of "scriptures."

Much of the effort of Apologists in these debates is expended disputing what is clearly stated in their own scriptures – with "It doesn't mean what it says, it means what I want it to mean" – while citing translation errors, playing on word meanings, re-defining words, and "explaining" that the Bible means something different than it says.

If the Bible doesn't mean what it says and say what it means (but means whatever a person "interprets" it to mean), of what value is the Bible – other than to promote certain religious preferences?

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to post 17 by rikuoamero]

Isn't this what (most) Christians believe?

It very well may be what most Christians believe, but I do not believe it is wise to decide to base your understanding upon what most people believe, rather it is best to understand it yourself. Therefore, until, or unless you can tell me plainly from the Scriptures where this is taught you are simply going on what others have told you.

you make God out to not want a relationship with me...

If Christianity is true, (and of course I believe it is) then we all, already have a relationship with God. This relationship is either God as your judge, or as your savior.

The passage you refer to does not mean we can, or do hear His actual voice, anymore than it means we are actual sheep. It seems sort of strange that we all recognize right off that the passage is not saying we are actual sheep, but then move on to believe that it has to, and must mean we hear His actual, audible voice. No the author to the Hebrews tells us, "in these last days, God has SPOKEN (past tense) to us through His Son." We have these things recorded for us in the Scripture. Therefore, if we hear His voice, it will be as we read, study, and have His word expounded to us.

I understand there are many Christians who believe they have other means of communication with God, but I am convinced they are in error. These Christians want us to believe they have some sort of special relationship with God, but what I have found is Christianity is not about me, or what is going on in my life at the moment. Rather Christianity is a message about the Good News of what God has done for us. This News is not about me, and I did not make this News.

My relationship with God is through His ordain means which is the Fellowship of the Church, pray, Communion, baptism, etc. I am also believe it is dangerous to go outside these ordained means.

In fact the Bible actually warns against this,

Duet. 30:12-14
11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?� 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?� 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

Paul repeats this sane thing in Romans Chapter 10. Paul also tells us in 2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

If you read this passage carefully you will see Paul is saying "we have all we need, for EVERY good work" which means we do not need to attempt to hear from God in any other way.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 19 by Realworldjack]

What you have just said in that post runs counter to just about everything tam says on this site. She says she is not part of a religion; she says that relying on a church structure has led people away from Jesus; and if I'm not mistaken, has utilised the exact same verses as you and come to opposite conclusions.

Anyway, your position (that we don't hear God, that you don't hear God, that the relationship I'm told about by others is about judge vs saviour), is outside the point of this thread.
This thread is for those who do indeed say they hear an all knowing entity. Since you don't claim this, this thread isn't for you.