Why no straight answers?

[Zzyzx]

.
After eight years debating here I have YET to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs " including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human? None

Humans possess a soul? None

An afterlife exists? None

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described? None

God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None



Why no answers? Could it be refusal to admit that in the absence of verifiable information, accepting the basic beliefs of Christianity must be based on "Take my (or his) word for it" and that doing so is not a rational basis for making decisions on matters of importance?

[H.sapiens]

I say the same to you, H.sapiens about your post #395. The late Dr. Kennedy was among the finest ministers.

I'll will appear again in the next post.

Earl

Same to me what? All you're doing is avoiding the issue. To repeat myself: Look back at the OP and answer the questions rather than recommending the horse puckey served up by Kennedy and his ilk.

Being among the "finest ministers" (in your opinion) is not much of a recommendation, consider that he wanted to impeach judges who fail to acknowledge "God as the sovereign source of law, liberty, or government," opposed gay marriage, was a YEC, and wanted to limit the power of the federal judiciary to rule in religious liberty cases.

So come on, stop hiding behind right wing apologists and answer the questions.

[rikuoamero]

Hello again, Rikuoamero,

You said,

[Replying to post 394 by Erexsaur]

My assurance of who Jesus is is based on knowledge from my personal relationship with Him as my knowledge of you is based on my personal relationship with you on this forum.

Your analogy is faulty. If ever I was asked the question "Did Erexsaur have a relationship with ZZyzx?" I would point to exchanges such as this one, where I or anyone else can see the back and forth conversation you two have.
The same cannot be said for you and Jesus (or for tam and Christ). You say that you have a relationship with Jesus/Christ/Holy Spirit/whatever, but at no point is there any evidence proffered to verify such. I have given a challenge to tam, which I will give to you. A sheet of paper is in my drawer, with one sentence written on it. That sentence is a detail about my life that I have never told anyone. If someone really is communicating with an all knowing spirit, then I am willing to risk this detail becoming public knowledge.

We already have more than sufficient knowledge of who Jesus is.

By 'we', I must assume you are including yourself, Zzyzx, myself, and generally everyone else on the planet into that group. Okay, you mention the Scriptures. Is that it? We don't have any documents that detail Jesus's life before he began preaching (there is the story of him going to the temple and saying to his mother something along the lines of "I am in the house of my father i.e. God" and maybe one more that I'm forgetting).
Are you really suggesting that you are satisfied knowing only about three years of Jesus's life? (and not even three years, just snippets of what the Gospel writers felt were important enough to be written down) Snippets of three years of the life of supposedly the greatest human to have ever lived?

The Pharisees accused Jesus as a man making himself equal to God because they were too proud and too high to acknowledge Him as Lord despite the miracles.

How do you know this event even happened in real history? How do you know what their motivation was? Maybe the miracles weren't miracles and the Pharisees saw through a con-man? Maybe the Pharisees were being loyal to their Jewish teachings?

The pressing issue that therefore stares us in the face is whether or not you or I are willing to acknowledge Jesus as LORD of our lives.

Before I or Z or any other skeptic can consider this, we must be convinced that there even is a magic divine man Jesus. You're skipping over perhaps the most important step of all.

Finally, God has His own time and way of confronting us to show who He really is and how He really cares for us.

According to Z, if there is a God, then that god has wasted 75 years of Z's life hiding. And nearly 30 years of life for me.

But we know that Jesus died for us and miraculously changed the world for the better even though much is yet to be done by the church. Can you refute a witness for what he witnessed? Where is the evidence? Where is your trust? You will have your proof when you trust Jesus. Nuff said.

I do not direct my posts toward skeptics. I direct them toward people that I trust will hear and that's YOU GUYS!! What do you gain by claiming yourselves skeptics? If you tell a skeptic that a circle is round, he will find a scientific excuse to say that it's square just to disagree with you. You guys AIN'T that kind of person! Are we able to go through life without believing someone that passes new knowledge to us that we are in need of?

God would have wasted your and Z's years if He exists? Are the two of you still breathing? There's your proof that God did not forget you. God never forces His presence on anyone against his will.


Take care,
Earl


Is Zz still home?

So when I ask for evidence, when I offer a specific challenge, something that has only one correct answer, you don't bother even trying. Instead, you try emotional pleas and arguments, things that will not work on me.
You may say you know "Jesus died for us", but I do not. Do not include me in that group. I do not know or believe that a one Jesus Christ, son of Mary and Joseph died for us.
Can I refute a witness? YES! I can say "I don't believe you" precisely because your claim is unsupported. You claim to be in contact with an all knowing entity. I offer a test, for you to repeat publicly a detail about my life that only I know. Your all knowing entity if it exists would know that detail. So where is that detail? I've asked others this question, and I'm asking you. Do you know this detail? Have you asked your all knowing entity for it?
As for not directing your statements towards skeptics, you might want to look to the left, to my profile and the usergroups I am a part of. I am a member of the skeptic usergroup. I also have to ask why you don't want to talk to skeptics. Is this because we won't automatically believe whatever you say? Is it because we ask uncomfortable questions?
As for that bit about the circle...that's the only thing I agree with. If you present something to me and call it a circle, I will examine it. If it is indeed round, I will call it a circle too. What I will not do is agree with you that it is a circle when you have shown me something that has corners (or shown me nothing at all).
As for your point about God wasting our lives...how many times have we been told, by you and others, that this God wants to have a relationship with us, to know us and to talk to us, and to guide us? Well...that hasn't happened in my case. Nor in Z's case. I can't remember if Z said he was a believer, but I was for years. I asked and begged and pleaded, but nothing ever happened.

[KenRU]

But we know that Jesus died for us and miraculously changed the world for the better even though much is yet to be done by the church.

Correction, we know that people claim that Jesus died for us, and that Christianity changed the world. For the better or worse is up to future historians, imo.

Can you refute a witness for what he witnessed?

Do you believe Mohammed flew to heaven on a winged horse? Or do you refute a witness for what he witnessed?

Where is the evidence?

Common sense, and natural science.

Where is your trust?

Trust should not be granted without being earned.

You will have your proof when you trust Jesus.

You seem to have that backwards. Do you trust Islam and the prophet Mohammed?

I do not direct my posts toward skeptics. I direct them toward people that I trust will hear and that's YOU GUYS!!

Perhaps you should be addressing everyone willing to debate here. This is after all, a debate forum.

What do you gain by claiming yourselves skeptics?

I prefer to be called skeptical, but to your point, being skeptical of outrageous claims allows me not be fooled or taken advantage of. A better question is, why aren't you?

God would have wasted your and Z's years if He exists? Are the two of you still breathing? There's your proof that God did not forget you. God never forces His presence on anyone against his will.

Ok, where was he when I was a believer? I spent 20+ years as a believer, and "he" never made himself known to me. So, yes, in my case, if he exists, I wasted a whole bunch of time in church and learning nonsense.

All the best

[Erexsaur]

[Replying to KenRU]

Guys, please forgive me for the long absence.

For you, Zzyxz

But you know now that Jesus died for you simply because it was declared to you. Take it or leave it. Is anyone of us too smart to hear His message of magnificent hope because of the baseness of its sound?

Thank you for the dictionary definition of the word, skeptic that's more complete than the one I shared (while laughing within).

You said,
A person who has developed ability to use reasoning, judgment, discernment decides what information to accept. Such people realize that not all offers of "new knowledge" (or information) are accurate and truthful.

Thank you. Your speech is in line with the warnings of Jude 4 and 10, 1 Thessalonians 5:19-21, 1 John 4:1. Also remember Thomas in St. John 20:26-29.
I trust that you know what and what not to accept.

I also trust that you are thinking on the things I shared with you. As Jesus said to Peter, I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers (Luke 22:32). But please include me also. I will be more than happy to hear your increased wisdom because of your age seniority. I'm 72.


For you, Rikuoamero and KenRU

Theres a great many people that are still in need to be informed of the Bible and its truth. Those that heed will be blessed with this solid foundation.

God is not a gossiper to reveal to me any secret about you. But He did reveal to a prophet info about King David that the prophet may inform David of a committed sin.

When it comes to personal communications with God, have you forgotten your telephone called conscience? Dont you hear it ringing? God most often brings necessary truth to memory (St. John 14-16 and 26) beyond talk especially during payer. What about the word of the minister? Please be careful not to let these slip.

Is your desire for proof sufficient to allow God to prove Himself? He awaits you. I thought that one example of evidence is simply a word passed to you. I listened to a Russian general that once hated Christians speak in person about the time that found himself asking God to prove Himself (God) after finding himself (the general) a passenger in a falling helicopter. The fact that he survived is itself a miracle. We are informed of the commandment to trust and believe the words of Jesus.



Even though biblically given details of Jesus' natural life is minimal, isn't the important things we know of Him is His unique supernatural contributions to humanity that no other human is capable of? Don't you remember John 1:1-18? Please particularly note verse 14. What about the scriptures that tell us that the natural mind cannot receive things of the spiritual mind (1 Corinthians 2:14)? Didn't Jesus tell Nicodemus, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God (John 3:1-21).

Perhaps the reason that God is so often seen as a myth is that it's so easy to see Him in a way that badly distorts His true character. I too am happy that God according to such views doesn't exists! God is not a hard taskmaster that loves to threaten with hell. He is instead our friend that knows that we are all broken and imperfect and is thus merciful, compassionate, and inviting in character. You may have heard this a thousand times but I yet say it again. I remember times when I saw Him the way I saw people that were supposedly holy but instead obnoxious. Even though God promises that seekers of Him will find, who would want to seek Him as if obnoxious?

You said,
As for your point about God wasting our lives...how many times have we been told, by you and others, that this God wants to have a relationship with us, to know us and to talk to us, and to guide us? Well...that hasn't happened in my case. Nor in Z's case. I can't remember if Z said he was a believer, but I was for years. I asked and begged and pleaded, but nothing ever happened.

I know nothing of what hindered you. I only know that once whatever obatacle is laid aside and confessed, He will speak. I had my struggles and still have them. I know of too many that are still believers of which I tend to doubt whether or not they know God according to His true character. .

As for who you followed and how you went about in your effort to seek and serve God I cannot say. But may I please personally assure you that there's never a single reason for anyone to give up on God or the gospel?

Was God seen and known according to impressions of people or according His pure character of abundant grace and mercy? Let's never think in our heart that God broke His promises to the seeker.

I did not say that I don't want to talk to skeptics. But what's wrong with my complimenting you by saying that I trust you as a hearer? I thought that a view of you as trustworthy is honorable. Isn't it?

Although true that we grow in wisdom to filter liars, aren't there yet times when we have nothing to rely on but a word passed to us by a stranger?

You said,
As for that bit about the circle...that's the only thing I agree with. If you present something to me and call it a circle, I will examine it. If it is indeed round, I will call it a circle too. What I will not do is agree with you that it is a circle when you have shown me something that has corners (or shown me nothing at all).

Thank you for your assurance! May I then assure you that what I share with you as a circle is nothing other than a circle?

As for you, KenRU. is it not possible for many to falsely claim the Bible untrue? For me, they are too late.

For you, H.Sapiens

The late Dr. Kennedy spoke the same horse puckey as I now speak. I trust that you heard and enjoyed his message.

It is understandable that you oppose his recommendation to impeach the activist judges you spoke of that don't support the sovereignty of God because we are on opposite sides of a worldview battle. One view supports the truth that God created and the other doesnt. If God is not sovereign Creator, what basis do we have to support and defend our rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit for happiness? Please? I am with him that judges should never have been allowed to legislate from the bench.

Speaking of the word horse, I have a high-tech horse whip with a USB cable attached that would allow me to crack it across the internet to corral you guys.

Take care,
Earl

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 404 by Erexsaur]

For you, Zzyxz

But you know now that Jesus died for you simply because it was declared to you.

I know that was addressed to Z, but I'll comment on this as well. No, he (and I) don't know now that Jesus died for us 'simply because it was declared'. I can tell, with a high degree of certainty, that you don't believe everything that is declared to you. If you do, answer this: I declare that last week, in real life, I fought a fire breathing dragon, one that looks like Smaug. I can guess you won't believe that this happened, simply because my declaring it to be true is not enough.

In fact, I've just re-read my last comment on this thread...and I've already answered this exact point! Why do you repeat it?

Theres a great many people that are still in need to be informed of the Bible and its truth.

I've mentioned many times on this site, but perhaps you are unaware (or perhaps you never checked which usergroups I'm a member of). I have read the whole Bible. We are 'informed' of it (what, are you under some sort of notion that we've never heard of it? )

God is not a gossiper to reveal to me any secret about you.

If there is a God, I've given him permission to do so. That sheet of paper is still in my drawer. In fact, I had completely forgotten about it by this point. I even made a separate thread all about the challenge, with no takers.

But He did reveal to a prophet info about King David that the prophet may inform David of a committed sin.

I don't believe that this happened, since your only bit of evidence is a story in a book that I don't believe speaks barely any truths at all. Why did you think that this claim about a prophet and David might work to sway me to what you believe?

When it comes to personal communications with God, have you forgotten your telephone called conscience? Dont you hear it ringing?

Yes, it is especially 'loud' (in quotes because it isn't an actual audible noise, but a feeling) whenever I read the Bible, and it is warning me against the god entity depicted therein. It is also loud whenever I watch Star Wars and I see Governor Tarkin all too eager to press the button and blow up Alderaan. It is loud when I read my World War II history books and I see the Nazis enacting the Final Solution.

I thought that one example of evidence is simply a word passed to you. I listened to a Russian general that once hated Christians speak in person about the time that found himself asking God to prove Himself (God) after finding himself (the general) a passenger in a falling helicopter. The fact that he survived is itself a miracle. We are informed of the commandment to trust and believe the words of Jesus.

Notice that in this little anecdote, you give me nothing at all to work with. For one, surviving helicopter crashes is not a miracle, unless you want to call all survivors of all vehicular disasters to be miracles (in which case, none of them are, since you would have literally no basis of comparison. Oh and you would also have the problem of what about all those who don't survive disasters). Second, you don't identify who this Russian general is. Third, this is a classic case of "atheist in a fox hole" story. I don't buy them. Fourth, what about say a person who is Hindu who cries out to his Hindu god and who survives a disaster? Of course, you don't accept that that means Ganesha exists.

Is your desire for proof sufficient to allow God to prove Himself? He awaits you.

I did make the challenge didn't I? I did devote an entire thread to nothing more than my challenge, didn't I? Why would I do that if I wasn't waiting for evidence?

isn't the important things we know of Him is His unique supernatural contributions to humanity that no other human is capable of?

Then this renders his being a human completely pointless, if it was his (supposedly) being supernatural that was important. His being human is superfluous, unnecessary.

What about the scriptures that tell us that the natural mind cannot receive things of the spiritual mind

You're yet another example of a theist who disqualifies himself from being able to talk about the supernatural.

Perhaps the reason that God is so often seen as a myth is that it's so easy

That's where the evidence lies.

I too am happy that God according to such views doesn't exists!

Why? This means that I don't believe your god exists. It means he's hiding from me. So...you're happy that I don't believe your god exists? Shouldn't you be mournful, sad, that I don't believe?

! God is not a hard taskmaster that loves to threaten with hell.

Which is why God in the Old Testament is depicted as killing thousands of people merely for questioning him, and why Jesus mentions hell as being a nasty experience of some sort. Wait...

He is instead our friend that knows that we are all broken and imperfect and is thus merciful, compassionate, and inviting in character.

My real friends, the ones I believe exist, have proven their existence to me and have actually gone to great lengths to help me. My real friends helped me when I was briefly homeless. The god you talk about didn't.

You may have heard this a thousand times but I yet say it again.

So why even bother having me hear it for the thousandth and one time? Is this what you think helps: mere repetition of claims? There's a word for that, and it begins with P. The fascists in the lead up to World War II made great use of this p word.

Even though God promises that seekers of Him will find, who would want to seek Him as if obnoxious?

That's odd. Whenever I read that promise in the past, I didn't see a footnote saying that someone who is obnoxious will never find God. No, it's written quite simply and plainly. Knock, and the door shall open, or something like that, if I recall correctly.
Well, I might be labeled a bit obnoxious now, but back when I was still a believer and was first starting to stop believing, I wasn't like that.

I know nothing of what hindered you. I only know that once whatever obatacle is laid aside and confessed, He will speak.

Goalpost moving. Now suddenly, it's some sort of obstacle in the way? Why didn't any Christian mention this before? Or is this what I suspect it is, and just an attempt to not admit you could be wrong?
I admit I could be wrong. I await the evidence that proves me wrong, such as being told the secret on my sheet of paper.

Let's never think in our heart that God broke His promises to the seeker.

If your god exists, he did break it in my case, since HERE I AM. My presence on these forums, as an atheist, is 100% proof that your god either doesn't exist at all, or breaks this promise, or never made that promise to begin with.
It's one of those three. There are no other possibilities.

I did not say that I don't want to talk to skeptics.

Yes you did. From post whatever number it was

I do not direct my posts toward skeptics.

You then went to say that you directed them towards us anyway, and most obnoxiously, said we weren't skeptics. Meaning that if you had thought we were skeptics, you wouldn't have wanted to talk to us.
Well, I am. I have to tell it to you again. I am a skeptic. I don't believe everything I see or hear. Do you want to discontinue our conversation, or do you not believe that I am a skeptic for some weird reason?

But what's wrong with my complimenting you by saying that I trust you as a hearer? I thought that a view of you as trustworthy is honorable. Isn't it?

So skeptics in your eyes aren't trustworthy. Fantastic. Not sure if I still want to continue talking to you, since I view the title of 'skeptic' to be the highest praise one can give to another person.

Although true that we grow in wisdom to filter liars, aren't there yet times when we have nothing to rely on but a word passed to us by a stranger?

If a complete stranger tells me that a Russian general survived a helicopter crash by calling out to the Christian God (and implies this wouldn't have worked if he had either not called out to a god at all or to a different god...), why should I believe this word?

Thank you for your assurance! May I then assure you that what I share with you as a circle is nothing other than a circle?

Here's the thing. You haven't shown me this 'circle'. You've talked about what you call a 'circle' (or in this analogy, God) but I don't have anything to examine. All I have are stories thousands of years old and anecdotes from you about anonymous Russian generals.
Your assurance means nothing to me.

If God is not sovereign Creator, what basis do we have to support and defend our rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit for happiness?

Look up the logical fallacy of the false dichotomy please.

[marco]

What 'verifiable evidence' of such a alleged 'ordinary' historical event in ancient history, (with no physical evidence remaining (eg monuments)) can be produced when all the sources are ruled out? None.

And yet even though such alleged 'ordinary' events can't been proven or supported by 'verifiable evidence' under '"no sources allowed" conditions' you demand that others prove alleged 'extraordinary' events (eg. the resurrection) in such a fashion. What a hoot.

I have a sympathy with the position of someone asked to prove his/her convictions, as though we have all checked every source of our secular beliefs for truth. I was reading something today on the early history of Britain and my mind was happily accepting what I had absolutely no way to prove. Do I trust the researchers? I've no idea who they are. I like Alexander's final statement: "For the strongest", when asked who would be the inheritor of his empire. But is it true?

So, I agree there is unfairness in turning to others and asking them for things we cannot ourselves supply. What separates me from a Christian or Muslim is not that I have a massive amount of unimpeachable proof; it is that I choose to think my reasoning power has the right to discard what they accept. And yet that same reasoning power is demonstrably fallible. I still think that my fallible reason -all I have -allows me to come to conclusions. But believers, too, come to conclusions by accepting their faith gives them a path through life.

Before we hold this view in contempt and laugh as they stumble over the inadequacy of Josephus to help them, we should ask if the faithless road is any brighter? In many ways we have deprived ourselves of electricity - but that's a choice we've made. Believers, with their well-lit rooms, have made another choice.

[Erexsaur]

[Replying to rikuoamero]

Hello rikuoamero,

You made a very clear picture of yourself as a skeptic. OK. May I ask if you would please clearly show me the advantage of being such on the core issue of the existence of God? I know of none.

You said to me,

I can tell, with a high degree of certainty, that you don't believe everything that is declared to you.

You are correct! Because of the fallen nature of man and the consequent tendency to lie, who can and should we believe? Is there anyone at all? How do we know who to believe? Even parents were known to lie to their own children. People have been known to lie and deceive with perfectly honest looking countenance and an honest looking face.

You have only showed me with your statement the distinct, clear advantage of trust in God who IS the only one to be trusted! Thats why He commands us to trust Him. Continue with your choice not to trust Him for continued unrest that will only lead to trust in an untrustworthy party. We trust God to send a trustworthy messenger to give us His settled, trusted, and needed word. When heard, conscience bears witness that it is true. We trust the messenger only because we trust God that delivered and sent him and because of the discernment God gave us to filter messengers. Such is true in all walks of our lives. Only then is one delivered from trying so hard to avoid the ditch that he ends up in the ditch on the other side of the road. Is there any need to miss out on a vital message for fear of it being a lie?

Distrust toward God snowballs exponentially. Thanks so much for clearly showing that if God cant be trusted, only the wind is left. As a steelworker, walk on a beam thats 50 stories high and trust the wind by leaning on it. My trust to you and your trust to me comes only from trust in God.

Is Gods word called the Bible a book that only contains worthless myths? This would be true only to the person that cannot see himself in it. I know of no ones character that the Bible misses. Dont we all see the gruesome works of those that handle its great wisdom as mythical? Only the person that sees and honestly confesses the mirrored depravity he sees in himself is relieved to find supernatural help, forgiveness, and deliverance. Believe none of this and continue to miss out! The bad things we see in the Bible are undesired products of the sinful nature in the presence of God and how God deals with it.

You want God to prove Himself by revealing to me the secret you wrote on paper in a drawer? Are you really sure that you would trust Him even if He did? What would you want me to do with the info? Twist it and smear your character with it?

Finally, I have a little more to say about circles; if we should circle an issue, lets walk around it in the shape of a square and thus treat ourselves to a square circle.


Take care,
Earl

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 407 by Erexsaur]

May I ask if you would please clearly show me the advantage of being such on the core issue of the existence of God?

It means that I'm less likely to be hoodwinked by someone or some other group when they claim "This is what is meant by the word God, this God exists, this is what God is like". For example, a Young Earth Creationist who grows up reading Ken Ham is most definitely not a skeptic. That person will say the Bible is 100% infallible, and that any and all evidence that is found that contradicts the Bible is simply wrong right out of the gate.
Remember, it's not simply I'm skeptical of the existence of God. I'm skeptical as to what the word even means. There are plenty of different meanings for the word.

Because of the fallen nature of man

You can't toss this in here as if it's a foregone conclusion. 'The fallen nature of man' is a core point of your theology, which I don't believe.

Is there anyone at all? How do we know who to believe? Even parents were known to lie to their own children.

I know this better than most and no, I don't mean little things like Santa Claus.

You have only showed me with your statement the distinct, clear advantage of trust in God who IS the only one to be trusted!

Odd, I don't think I did, so reading the paragraph here...and you don't explain how. You just for lack of a better word, waffle on about God being great and trustworthy, without explaining how.

Thanks so much for clearly showing that if God cant be trusted, only the wind is left.

I can see you didn't do what I suggested. You didn't look up the logical fallacy of the false dichotomy. You're making the situation out as if it's either God (and most specifically, the Christian, Biblical God) or nothing, as they're the only two possible options.

s a steelworker, walk on a beam thats 50 stories high and trust the wind by leaning on it. My trust to you and your trust to me comes only from trust in God.

When did I say I trust you? I most explicitly said in my last post to you that I DON'T. I said 'your assurance means nothing', when you kept going on about this Russian general who survived a helicopter crash.
You haven't earned my trust. I don't believe what you say, precisely because I have no reason to trust you. You make tall claims and present no evidence to support them.

As for walking on a beam while trusting in God...how about you actually do that? Go on, go up on a beam that's 50 stories high and remove any and all safety equipment. I honestly doubt you'll do that, because such an action is stupid. You're yet another theist who talks the talk about trusting in God...but who doesn't actually walk the walk.

Is Gods word called the Bible a book that only contains worthless myths? This would be true only to the person that cannot see himself in it.

Since it would be quite ludicrous to suggest that people alive in 2016 were written about in stories two or three thousand years old, perhaps you mean something different? If so, why not simply say that something different?

Only the person that sees and honestly confesses the mirrored depravity he sees in himself is relieved to find supernatural help, forgiveness, and deliverance.

Yes, the old 'Christianity convinces you that you are sick, and then insists that it and it alone has the cure' shtick. I once thought along those lines. It wasn't a good place for me psychologically speaking.
I am not guilty of whatever it is the Bible says I am guilty of. I do not have a mirrored depravity; I did not obey the voices in my head and killed heathens, like what the Hebrews did in the Old Testament stories.

You want God to prove Himself by revealing to me the secret you wrote on paper in a drawer? Are you really sure that you would trust Him even if He did? What would you want me to do with the info? Twist it and smear your character with it?

I notice that you still don't actually say this secret, which makes me think you don't actually know it and cannot actually know it. As for what I would do...let's cross that bridge when we come to it (or rather, if) m'kay?

Finally, I have a little more to say about circles; if we should circle an issue, lets walk around it in the shape of a square and thus treat ourselves to a square circle.

I have no idea what this means, other than try to do a logical impossibility?

[Erexsaur]

[Replying to post 407 by Erexsaur]

Hello Rikuoamero,

May I ask if you would please clearly show me the advantage of being such on the core issue of the existence of God?

It means that I'm less likely to be hoodwinked by someone or some other group when they claim "This is what is meant by the word God, this God exists, this is what God is like". For example, a Young Earth Creationist who grows up reading Ken Ham is most definitely not a skeptic. That person will say the Bible is 100% infallible, and that any and all evidence that is found that contradicts the Bible is simply wrong right out of the gate.

Remember, it's not simply I'm skeptical of the existence of God. I'm skeptical as to what the word even means. There are plenty of different meanings for the word.

There are plenty of different meanings for the word.

Theres a big difference between ones knowing God as a person, and tendencies toward arguing and grappling with lots of things about God. The Bible admonishes us not to be deceived by false doctrine thats ever with us. But as long as misleading doctrine about God pops up, so will corrective measures and thus arguments and debates. But the greater ones knowledge of Gods person, the greater his defense against misunderstanding and deception.

I only know God as having spoken all including you and me into existence, made us of great value and dignity, and gave us our potentials and abilities. Arent you valuable for what you have to offer? God holds you and me accountable

Because of the fallen nature of man

You can't toss this in here as if it's a foregone conclusion. 'The fallen nature of man' is a core point of your theology, which I don't believe.

If my theology happens to be true, why not believe it? Shouldnt we believe only whats true? I speak not from conclusions of myself or of mere men, but from what was revealed (2 Peter 1:16).

It is obvious that massive deviation from Gods original purpose for man is prevalent around us. Is there any other way to describe human nature other than as fallen?

One cannot be hoodwinked into a restored relationship with the One that gave us our rights. (Note that I did not say, argued our rights) Has it entered into anyones mind the great things God has in mind for you with your unique abilities?

Is there anyone at all? How do we know who to believe? Even parents were known to lie to their own children.

I know this better than most and no, I don't mean little things like Santa Claus.

You have only showed me with your statement the distinct, clear advantage of trust in God who IS the only one to be trusted!

Odd, I don't think I did, so reading the paragraph here...and you don't explain how. You just for lack of a better word, waffle on about God being great and trustworthy, without explaining how.

I only know that God gave us life and breath. Is there anyone known thats able to do better? Why doubt that God is faithful? Dont you want to know Him as such? Im certainly glad I do!

Thanks so much for clearly showing that if God cant be trusted, only the wind is left.

I can see you didn't do what I suggested. You didn't look up the logical fallacy of the false dichotomy. You're making the situation out as if it's either God (and most specifically, the Christian, Biblical God) or nothing, as they're the only two possible options.

s a steelworker, walk on a beam thats 50 stories high and trust the wind by leaning on it. My trust to you and your trust to me comes only from trust in God.

When did I say I trust you? I most explicitly said in my last post to you that I DON'T. I said 'your assurance means nothing', when you kept going on about this Russian general who survived a helicopter crash.
You haven't earned my trust. I don't believe what you say, precisely because I have no reason to trust you. You make tall claims and present no evidence to support them.

As for walking on a beam while trusting in God...how about you actually do that? Go on, go up on a beam that's 50 stories high and remove any and all safety equipment. I honestly doubt you'll do that, because such an action is stupid. You're yet another theist who talks the talk about trusting in God...but who doesn't actually walk the walk.

Is Gods word called the Bible a book that only contains worthless myths? This would be true only to the person that cannot see himself in it.

Since it would be quite ludicrous to suggest that people alive in 2016 were written about in stories two or three thousand years old, perhaps you mean something different? If so, why not simply say that something different?

Only the person that sees and honestly confesses the mirrored depravity he sees in himself is relieved to find supernatural help, forgiveness, and deliverance.

Yes, the old 'Christianity convinces you that you are sick, and then insists that it and it alone has the cure' shtick. I once thought along those lines. It wasn't a good place for me psychologically speaking.
I am not guilty of whatever it is the Bible says I am guilty of. I do not have a mirrored depravity; I did not obey the voices in my head and killed heathens, like what the Hebrews did in the Old Testament stories.

You want God to prove Himself by revealing to me the secret you wrote on paper in a drawer? Are you really sure that you would trust Him even if He did? What would you want me to do with the info? Twist it and smear your character with it?

I notice that you still don't actually say this secret, which makes me think you don't actually know it and cannot actually know it. As for what I would do...let's cross that bridge when we come to it (or rather, if) m'kay?

Finally, I have a little more to say about circles; if we should circle an issue, lets walk around it in the shape of a square and thus treat ourselves to a square circle.

I have no idea what this means, other than try to do a logical impossibility?

[Erexsaur]

[Replying to post 407 by Erexsaur]


Hello Rikuoamero,

Your answers to my statements are shown below:

May I ask if you would please clearly show me the advantage of being such on the core issue of the existence of God?

It means that I'm less likely to be hoodwinked by someone or some other group when they claim "This is what is meant by the word God, this God exists, this is what God is like". For example, a Young Earth Creationist who grows up reading Ken Ham is most definitely not a skeptic. That person will say the Bible is 100% infallible, and that any and all evidence that is found that contradicts the Bible is simply wrong right out of the gate.

Remember, it's not simply I'm skeptical of the existence of God. I'm skeptical as to what the word even means. There are plenty of different meanings for the word.

Theres a big difference between ones knowing God as a person, and tendencies toward arguing and grappling with lots of things about God. The Bible admonishes us not to be deceived by false doctrine thats ever with us. But as long as misleading doctrine about God pops up, so will corrective measures and thus arguments and debates. But the greater ones knowledge of Gods person, the greater his defense against misunderstanding and deception.

I only know God as having spoken all including you and me into existence, made us of great value and dignity, and gave us our potentials and abilities. Arent you valuable for what you have to offer? God holds you and me accountable to each other.

Because of the fallen nature of man

You can't toss this in here as if it's a foregone conclusion. 'The fallen nature of man' is a core point of your theology, which I don't believe.

If my theology happens to be true, why not believe it? Shouldnt we believe only whats true? I speak not from conclusions of myself or of mere men, but from what was revealed (2 Peter 1:16).

It is obvious that massive deviation from Gods original purpose for man is prevalent around us. Is there any other way to describe human nature other than as fallen?

One cannot be hoodwinked into a restored relationship with the One that gave us our rights. (Note that I did not say, argued our rights) Has it entered into anyones mind the great things God has in mind for you with your unique abilities?

Is there anyone at all? How do we know who to believe? Even parents were known to lie to their own children.

I know this better than most and no, I don't mean little things like Santa Claus.

You have only showed me with your statement the distinct, clear advantage of trust in God who IS the only one to be trusted!

Odd, I don't think I did, so reading the paragraph here...and you don't explain how. You just for lack of a better word, waffle on about God being great and trustworthy, without explaining how.

I only know that God gave us life and breath. Is there anyone known thats able to do better? Why doubt that God is faithful? Dont you want to know Him as such? Im certainly glad I do!

Thanks so much for clearly showing that if God cant be trusted, only the wind is left.

I can see you didn't do what I suggested. You didn't look up the logical fallacy of the false dichotomy. You're making the situation out as if it's either God (and most specifically, the Christian, Biblical God) or nothing, as they're the only two possible options.

What false dichotomy or logical fallacy? Arent you familiar with the DOI? God is real and theres no other! Is it possible for there to be more than one creator of the order around us that gave us life and liberty? Is there any other giver of natural and moral law? Have you even expressed any other?

As a steelworker, walk on a beam thats 50 stories high and trust the wind by leaning on it. My trust to you and your trust to me comes only from trust in God.

When did I say I trust you? I most explicitly said in my last post to you that I DON'T. I said 'your assurance means nothing', when you kept going on about this Russian general who survived a helicopter crash.
You haven't earned my trust. I don't believe what you say, precisely because I have no reason to trust you. You make tall claims and present no evidence to support them.

If really true that you dont trust me, thanks for admitting it. But is it true? I dont think so. I trust you. The Russian general I spoke of is General Vycheslav Borisov that commanded 100,000 troops during Russias war with Afghanistan. A summary of the story I spoke of is on the following link:

http://www.bpnews.net/1977/ Russian-general-accepts-christ"in-damascus-road-experience

I dont know whether a video is still available or not.

You said,

As for walking on a beam while trusting in God...how about you actually do that? Go on, go up on a beam that's 50 stories high and remove any and all safety equipment. I honestly doubt you'll do that, because such an action is stupid. You're yet another theist who talks the talk about trusting in God...but who doesn't actually walk the walk.

But you must first walk on the beam trusting the wind as I suggested.

Is Gods word called the Bible a book that only contains worthless myths? This would be true only to the person that cannot see himself in it.

Since it would be quite ludicrous to suggest that people alive in 2016 were written about in stories two or three thousand years old, perhaps you mean something different? If so, why not simply say that something different?

Has human nature changed through the years? Has technology conquered it? One has to lie or steal only once to find an example of himself in the Bible. Although Star Wars and Star Trek settings are far in the future, the characters in the episodes are as crazy as people are today and in the past.

Only the person that sees and honestly confesses the mirrored depravity he sees in himself is relieved to find supernatural help, forgiveness, and deliverance.

Yes, the old 'Christianity convinces you that you are sick, and then insists that it and it alone has the cure' shtick. I once thought along those lines. It wasn't a good place for me psychologically speaking.
I am not guilty of whatever it is the Bible says I am guilty of. I do not have a mirrored depravity; I did not obey the voices in my head and killed heathens, like what the Hebrews did in the Old Testament stories.

Are you saying that you never lied or stole? Are you sure you fully understand the story behind the events in the Bible that cause you to criticize it?

You want God to prove Himself by revealing to me the secret you wrote on paper in a drawer? Are you really sure that you would trust Him even if He did? What would you want me to do with the info? Twist it and smear your character with it?

I notice that you still don't actually say this secret, which makes me think you don't actually know it and cannot actually know it. As for what I would do...let's cross that bridge when we come to it (or rather, if) m'kay?

If God revealed your little secrets to another, the other would have to be a minister to warn you about something you need to straighten out

What reason has God to reveal it to me?

Finally, I have a little more to say about circles; if we should circle an issue, lets walk around it in the shape of a square and thus treat ourselves to a square circle.

I have no idea what this means, other than try to do a logical impossibility?

You didnt laugh? I chuckled when I wrote this line.

-- -- -- --

Oops! Maybe I should change my mind to become a skeptic also! Even though sure Im talking to a person by talking to you, maybe I should choose to believe that Im not talking to a person but instead a robot! Would that make you happy? Will you please give me $10,000 so that I would have reason to fear having a sense of accountability toward you and refuse? What's $10K compared with life that God gave us only for some not to trust that He is God?

Take care,
Earl