How can Lucifer be a fallen angel?

[Yahu]

Lucifer is only referenced once in scripture. It isn't even a name in the original hebrew. Lucifer is Latin from the Latin translation into our modern canon.

The actual passage calls him 'Heylel ben Shachar' which is translated 'Lucifer, son of the morning'. How can he be a fallen angel if he is not 'ben Elohyim' but 'ben Shachar'? I guess people don't know that Shachar was a Canaanite deity that was himself an 'ben El' according to the Canaanites.

Now Heylel (Lucifer) isn't even a name. It is a descriptive title. It means 'light bringer' or 'shining one' and is a common epitaph for a sungod. For example the same thing in Greek is Pheobus, ie 'bright'. Pheobus is a title of Apollo and Apollo means 'the destroyer' in Greek.

Now since Lucifer is from the Latin translation, it is interesting to note that the goddess Diana was Diana Luciferah as well in the Latin, ie the feminine form of Lucifer who was the twin sister of Apollo.

Most christian doctrine assumes that the serpent in the garden was Lucifer yet no where in scripture is this even speculated. Satan doesn't even appear in scripture until the time of Job, well after the flood.

Now if we assume that Shachar actually was an angel that had children then Lucifer at most is the son of a fallen angel who would have been born on earth, lived then died. How can he be anything more then just a ghost?

The passage of Isa 14 talks of Lucifer as a shameful ruler that destroys, then dies, is eaten by worms, descends into sheol where kings in sheol say 'Is this the MAN?'

So how is Lucifer a man?

[ttruscott]

That is a reference to Lucifer, the covering cherub with his plucked wings but also is part prideful man. Part angelic form and part man. Sounds like a crossbreed/nephilim to me.

Well, it sounds like a demon raised from Sheol and sown into the world (conceived) as a man by the devil as Mtt 13:38-39 tells us happens.

[bluethread]

It's also been sealed in Christian theology by the book of Revelation that the "Old Serpent", the Devil, and Satan all refer to the same entity.

Diablos(Greek) and HaSatan(Hebrew) both mean adversary. In the Scriptures this concept has been personified to apply it to various situations. Some rabbi's and theologians have expanded on this personification to make a doctrine of a specific being. In the Revelation this concept is tied into the Serpent mythology addressed in Genesis.

But yes, I agree with you that this clearly brings in characters from other Pagan mythologies. No question about it. This is why it seems to me that any serious theologian must ultimately conclude that the Biblical Scriptures are a hodgepodge of various superstitious tales and not some unique story of a specific God.

Aren't theologians permitted to follow the truth wherever it leads?

Many rabbis and theologians do just that. Just as some on this site who find fault with the Scriptures interpret things without taking historical, grammatical and cultural context into account, some rabbis and theologians do the same when seeking to justify them. I personally acknowledge that there is a relationship between the deities of the nations and what is written in the Scriptures. I just believe that the Scriptures are correcting the philosophies of the nations at the time and establishing a record and rituals to reinforce that.

[Yahu]

That is a reference to Lucifer, the covering cherub with his plucked wings but also is part prideful man. Part angelic form and part man. Sounds like a crossbreed/nephilim to me.

Well, it sounds like a demon raised from Sheol and sown into the world (conceived) as a man by the devil as Mtt 13:38-39 tells us happens.

Yes, I believe the nephilim corrupted bloodlines in the world are the tares. Their spirits even become 'evil spirits' once they are dead adding to the number of 'demons'.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1 by Yahu]

I looked up "Lucifer" in Smith's Bible Dictionary, and it says this: "Lucifer (light-bearer), found in Isaiah 14:12, coupled with the epithet 'son of the morning,' clearly signifies a 'bright star,' and probably what we call the morning star. In this passage it is a symbolical representation of the king of Babylon in his splendor and in his fall. Its application, from St. Jerome downward, to Satan in his fall from heaven arises probably from the fact that the Babylonian empire is in Scripture represented as the type of tyrannical and self-idolizing power, and especially connected with the empire of the Evil One in Revelation (Apocalypse)."

Interesting....and that's what I have thought. Satan is identified with this Babylonian king falling; the description undoubtedly compares to what Satan's situation became.

He wasn't always "Satan." That name was given to him because he took a course of rebellion against God. We don't know what his name was before. From a righteous, perfect start, he apparently began thinking about how he would like to be "higher than the clouds; like the Most High." (See James 1:14,15.) In the course that Satan took, there seems to be, in some respects, a parallel with that of the king of Tyre as described in Ezekiel 28:11-19. This idea is particularly compelling when we read verse 13: "You were in Eden, the garden of God." I look at Satan as being like the one described in this passage....he was once a perfect, beautiful angel, "the anointed cherub who covers; blameless in your ways from the day you were created until unrighteousness was found in you."

LOL.
Satan isn't even a name. Again it is a title. Satan in Hebrew is the verb 'to accuse'. HaSatan is 'the accusing one'. It is a title of a position in the Heavenly court. Basically the prosecutor.

Now Eze 28 had 3 prophecies. Nobody ever looks at the other 2. They are directed at the prince of Tyrus, the King of Tyrus and the 'she of Sidon'. They are directed at the primary deities of the Pheonicians, ie Baal, Molech and Ashtoreth. That is the lord (prince), Molech (shameful king) and Ashtoreth (shameful star, queen of heaven/sky). BTW, the star of Ashtoreth is Venus. She is Diana Luciferah of the Romans and the primary deity of Sidon. Now the Canaanites called Ashtoreth by the title 'queen of heaven' but it wasn't Yah's Heaven but 'queen of the sky' as queen mother at Babel, Nimrod's Nephilim mother. She is also the mother of Sidon, hense the giantism in the Canaanite people.

It even states in the prophecy about Baal that the prince thinks he is a god but dies like a man.

Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Isa 14 isn't comparing Lucifer to the king of Babylon. Lucifer is the 'shameful king', ie Molech of Babel! How is it that you people take out 4 verses in the middle of the passage and think those 4 verses are talking about someone entirely different? That is asinine.

Lucifer is the pagan sungod Molech of the Pheonicians. Sungod worship throughout the old testament is equated as Satan worship. Of course Sidon was settled after the fall of Babel. Sidon was one of the captains of Nimrod according to the book of Jasher.

Here is an example. In the visions of Jeremiah, he saw many abominations at the temple like the women weeping for Tammuz (another name of Baal) but the WORST abomination were the men in the courtyard facing the east. They were worshiping the sungod, Lucifer himself in the temple courtyard.

I would say that it's "asinine" that you didn't really try to get the meaning of what I posted, at all. I wouldn't disagree with any of the comparisons you made, yet you can't see why I might compare Satan with the king of Tyre AND the king of Babylon. Meh.

[onewithhim]

It's also been sealed in Christian theology by the book of Revelation that the "Old Serpent", the Devil, and Satan all refer to the same entity.

Diablos(Greek) and HaSatan(Hebrew) both mean adversary. In the Scriptures this concept has been personified to apply it to various situations. Some rabbi's and theologians have expanded on this personification to make a doctrine of a specific being. In the Revelation this concept is tied into the Serpent mythology addressed in Genesis.

But yes, I agree with you that this clearly brings in characters from other Pagan mythologies. No question about it. This is why it seems to me that any serious theologian must ultimately conclude that the Biblical Scriptures are a hodgepodge of various superstitious tales and not some unique story of a specific God.

Aren't theologians permitted to follow the truth wherever it leads?

Many rabbis and theologians do just that. Just as some on this site who find fault with the Scriptures interpret things without taking historical, grammatical and cultural context into account, some rabbis and theologians do the same when seeking to justify them. I personally acknowledge that there is a relationship between the deities of the nations and what is written in the Scriptures. I just believe that the Scriptures are correcting the philosophies of the nations at the time and establishing a record and rituals to reinforce that.

I thought I would add a little to the "grammatical context" concerning the title "satan." (Which means "resister," as was brought out.)

In many places in the Hebrew Scriptures, the word satan appears without the definite article. Used this way, it applies in its first appearance to the angel that stood in the road to resist Balaam as he set out to curse the Israelites (Numbers 22:22,32). In other instances it refers to individuals as resisters of other men (ISamuel 29:4; 2Sam.19:21,22; IKings 5:4; 11:14,23,25). But it is used with the definite article ha to refer to Satan the Devil, the chief adversary of God (Job 1:6; 2:1-7; Zech.3:1,2). In the Greek Scriptures the word satanas' applies to Satan the Devil in nearly all of its occurrences and is usually accompanied by the definite article ho.



For further information, see Insight on the Scriptures, Vol.II, pages 866-870. Also: www.jw.org


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[onewithhim]

That is a reference to Lucifer, the covering cherub with his plucked wings but also is part prideful man. Part angelic form and part man. Sounds like a crossbreed/nephilim to me.

Well, it sounds like a demon raised from Sheol and sown into the world (conceived) as a man by the devil as Mtt 13:38-39 tells us happens.

Yes, I believe the nephilim corrupted bloodlines in the world are the tares. Their spirits even become 'evil spirits' once they are dead adding to the number of 'demons'.

Wow. You guys have juggled those scriptures around to where I don't recognize anything you're saying. Ttruscott speaks of "a demon raised from Sheol." First of all, demons aren't in Sheol. Sheol is the grave. Second of all, Matthew 13: 38,39 isn't describing the demons at all. Satan and his minions planted the tare seeds, sure, but the tares are the false religious leaders in this world.

Now, it was said that the Nephilim were "crossbreed." How do you figure? The Nephilim were the children of the demons + human women. They were physical, and couldn't go into the spirit realm like their fathers did, to get away from the Flood. All of the Nephilim were drowned in that Flood. Even if they wouldn't have drowned, they couldn't sire children because they were hybrids. So they didn't corrupt any bloodlines.

Where do you get the strange idea that once they were dead, the Nephilim's corrupted bloodlines would turn into evil spirits??? This is so bizarre I can't even imagine. Evil spirits are THE DEMONS....the ones who left their progeny, the Nephilim, and went back to the spirit realm rather than die in the Flood. Evil spirits are not dead people. We know that when a person dies he's really dead, and "the dead know nothing at all." (Eccles. 9:5)

[Yahu]

[Replying to post 16 by onewithhim]

Sorry, but nobody but JW accept that ridiculous nonsense that Sheol is just the grave. Everyone else, even the Jews for thousands of years believe it is the abode of the spirits of the dead.

Paradise is the abode of the righteous dead in Sheol (pre-cross). Tartarus is the prison in the lowest depths of Sheol where all fallen angels are LOCKED UP until Judgment. Satan rules from Sheol. That is his domain.

Demons are ghosts. Principalities are Nephilim ghosts. Satan/Lucifer is a ghost that rules Sheol/Hades/hell.

You are brainwashed by your cult.

[Yahu]

I thought I would add a little to the "grammatical context" concerning the title "satan." (Which means "resister," as was brought out.)

No it doesn't. 'satan' is the verb 'to accuse' not 'to resist'. HaSatan is 'The accusing one' or 'The accuser'. The 'Ha' makes it a singular entity that accuses.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Yahu]