How can Lucifer be a fallen angel?

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Yahu
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How can Lucifer be a fallen angel?

Post #1

Post by Yahu »

Lucifer is only referenced once in scripture. It isn't even a name in the original hebrew. Lucifer is Latin from the Latin translation into our modern canon.

The actual passage calls him 'Heylel ben Shachar' which is translated 'Lucifer, son of the morning'. How can he be a fallen angel if he is not 'ben Elohyim' but 'ben Shachar'? I guess people don't know that Shachar was a Canaanite deity that was himself an 'ben El' according to the Canaanites.

Now Heylel (Lucifer) isn't even a name. It is a descriptive title. It means 'light bringer' or 'shining one' and is a common epitaph for a sungod. For example the same thing in Greek is Pheobus, ie 'bright'. Pheobus is a title of Apollo and Apollo means 'the destroyer' in Greek.

Now since Lucifer is from the Latin translation, it is interesting to note that the goddess Diana was Diana Luciferah as well in the Latin, ie the feminine form of Lucifer who was the twin sister of Apollo.

Most christian doctrine assumes that the serpent in the garden was Lucifer yet no where in scripture is this even speculated. Satan doesn't even appear in scripture until the time of Job, well after the flood.

Now if we assume that Shachar actually was an angel that had children then Lucifer at most is the son of a fallen angel who would have been born on earth, lived then died. How can he be anything more then just a ghost?

The passage of Isa 14 talks of Lucifer as a shameful ruler that destroys, then dies, is eaten by worms, descends into sheol where kings in sheol say 'Is this the MAN?'

So how is Lucifer a man?

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Re: How can Lucifer be a fallen angel?

Post #11

Post by ttruscott »

Yahu wrote:That is a reference to Lucifer, the covering cherub with his plucked wings but also is part prideful man. Part angelic form and part man. Sounds like a crossbreed/nephilim to me.
Well, it sounds like a demon raised from Sheol and sown into the world (conceived) as a man by the devil as Mtt 13:38-39 tells us happens.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Post #12

Post by bluethread »

Divine Insight wrote:

It's also been sealed in Christian theology by the book of Revelation that the "Old Serpent", the Devil, and Satan all refer to the same entity.


Diablos(Greek) and HaSatan(Hebrew) both mean adversary. In the Scriptures this concept has been personified to apply it to various situations. Some rabbi's and theologians have expanded on this personification to make a doctrine of a specific being. In the Revelation this concept is tied into the Serpent mythology addressed in Genesis.
But yes, I agree with you that this clearly brings in characters from other Pagan mythologies. No question about it. This is why it seems to me that any serious theologian must ultimately conclude that the Biblical Scriptures are a hodgepodge of various superstitious tales and not some unique story of a specific God.

Aren't theologians permitted to follow the truth wherever it leads? :-k
Many rabbis and theologians do just that. Just as some on this site who find fault with the Scriptures interpret things without taking historical, grammatical and cultural context into account, some rabbis and theologians do the same when seeking to justify them. I personally acknowledge that there is a relationship between the deities of the nations and what is written in the Scriptures. I just believe that the Scriptures are correcting the philosophies of the nations at the time and establishing a record and rituals to reinforce that.

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Re: How can Lucifer be a fallen angel?

Post #13

Post by Yahu »

ttruscott wrote:
Yahu wrote:That is a reference to Lucifer, the covering cherub with his plucked wings but also is part prideful man. Part angelic form and part man. Sounds like a crossbreed/nephilim to me.
Well, it sounds like a demon raised from Sheol and sown into the world (conceived) as a man by the devil as Mtt 13:38-39 tells us happens.
Yes, I believe the nephilim corrupted bloodlines in the world are the tares. Their spirits even become 'evil spirits' once they are dead adding to the number of 'demons'.

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Re: How can Lucifer be a fallen angel?

Post #14

Post by onewithhim »

Yahu wrote:
onewithhim wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Yahu]

I looked up "Lucifer" in Smith's Bible Dictionary, and it says this: "Lucifer (light-bearer), found in Isaiah 14:12, coupled with the epithet 'son of the morning,' clearly signifies a 'bright star,' and probably what we call the morning star. In this passage it is a symbolical representation of the king of Babylon in his splendor and in his fall. Its application, from St. Jerome downward, to Satan in his fall from heaven arises probably from the fact that the Babylonian empire is in Scripture represented as the type of tyrannical and self-idolizing power, and especially connected with the empire of the Evil One in Revelation (Apocalypse)."

Interesting....and that's what I have thought. Satan is identified with this Babylonian king falling; the description undoubtedly compares to what Satan's situation became.

He wasn't always "Satan." That name was given to him because he took a course of rebellion against God. We don't know what his name was before. From a righteous, perfect start, he apparently began thinking about how he would like to be "higher than the clouds; like the Most High." (See James 1:14,15.) In the course that Satan took, there seems to be, in some respects, a parallel with that of the king of Tyre as described in Ezekiel 28:11-19. This idea is particularly compelling when we read verse 13: "You were in Eden, the garden of God." I look at Satan as being like the one described in this passage....he was once a perfect, beautiful angel, "the anointed cherub who covers; blameless in your ways from the day you were created until unrighteousness was found in you."

:study:
LOL.
Satan isn't even a name. Again it is a title. Satan in Hebrew is the verb 'to accuse'. HaSatan is 'the accusing one'. It is a title of a position in the Heavenly court. Basically the prosecutor.

Now Eze 28 had 3 prophecies. Nobody ever looks at the other 2. They are directed at the prince of Tyrus, the King of Tyrus and the 'she of Sidon'. They are directed at the primary deities of the Pheonicians, ie Baal, Molech and Ashtoreth. That is the lord (prince), Molech (shameful king) and Ashtoreth (shameful star, queen of heaven/sky). BTW, the star of Ashtoreth is Venus. She is Diana Luciferah of the Romans and the primary deity of Sidon. Now the Canaanites called Ashtoreth by the title 'queen of heaven' but it wasn't Yah's Heaven but 'queen of the sky' as queen mother at Babel, Nimrod's Nephilim mother. She is also the mother of Sidon, hense the giantism in the Canaanite people.

It even states in the prophecy about Baal that the prince thinks he is a god but dies like a man.

Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Isa 14 isn't comparing Lucifer to the king of Babylon. Lucifer is the 'shameful king', ie Molech of Babel! How is it that you people take out 4 verses in the middle of the passage and think those 4 verses are talking about someone entirely different? That is asinine.

Lucifer is the pagan sungod Molech of the Pheonicians. Sungod worship throughout the old testament is equated as Satan worship. Of course Sidon was settled after the fall of Babel. Sidon was one of the captains of Nimrod according to the book of Jasher.

Here is an example. In the visions of Jeremiah, he saw many abominations at the temple like the women weeping for Tammuz (another name of Baal) but the WORST abomination were the men in the courtyard facing the east. They were worshiping the sungod, Lucifer himself in the temple courtyard.
I would say that it's "asinine" that you didn't really try to get the meaning of what I posted, at all. I wouldn't disagree with any of the comparisons you made, yet you can't see why I might compare Satan with the king of Tyre AND the king of Babylon. Meh.

:study:

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Post #15

Post by onewithhim »

bluethread wrote:
Divine Insight wrote:

It's also been sealed in Christian theology by the book of Revelation that the "Old Serpent", the Devil, and Satan all refer to the same entity.


Diablos(Greek) and HaSatan(Hebrew) both mean adversary. In the Scriptures this concept has been personified to apply it to various situations. Some rabbi's and theologians have expanded on this personification to make a doctrine of a specific being. In the Revelation this concept is tied into the Serpent mythology addressed in Genesis.
But yes, I agree with you that this clearly brings in characters from other Pagan mythologies. No question about it. This is why it seems to me that any serious theologian must ultimately conclude that the Biblical Scriptures are a hodgepodge of various superstitious tales and not some unique story of a specific God.

Aren't theologians permitted to follow the truth wherever it leads? :-k
Many rabbis and theologians do just that. Just as some on this site who find fault with the Scriptures interpret things without taking historical, grammatical and cultural context into account, some rabbis and theologians do the same when seeking to justify them. I personally acknowledge that there is a relationship between the deities of the nations and what is written in the Scriptures. I just believe that the Scriptures are correcting the philosophies of the nations at the time and establishing a record and rituals to reinforce that.
I thought I would add a little to the "grammatical context" concerning the title "satan." (Which means "resister," as was brought out.)

In many places in the Hebrew Scriptures, the word satan appears without the definite article. Used this way, it applies in its first appearance to the angel that stood in the road to resist Balaam as he set out to curse the Israelites (Numbers 22:22,32). In other instances it refers to individuals as resisters of other men (ISamuel 29:4; 2Sam.19:21,22; IKings 5:4; 11:14,23,25). But it is used with the definite article ha to refer to Satan the Devil, the chief adversary of God (Job 1:6; 2:1-7; Zech.3:1,2). In the Greek Scriptures the word satanas' applies to Satan the Devil in nearly all of its occurrences and is usually accompanied by the definite article ho.



For further information, see Insight on the Scriptures, Vol.II, pages 866-870. Also: www.jw.org


:study: [/b]

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Re: How can Lucifer be a fallen angel?

Post #16

Post by onewithhim »

Yahu wrote:
ttruscott wrote:
Yahu wrote:That is a reference to Lucifer, the covering cherub with his plucked wings but also is part prideful man. Part angelic form and part man. Sounds like a crossbreed/nephilim to me.
Well, it sounds like a demon raised from Sheol and sown into the world (conceived) as a man by the devil as Mtt 13:38-39 tells us happens.
Yes, I believe the nephilim corrupted bloodlines in the world are the tares. Their spirits even become 'evil spirits' once they are dead adding to the number of 'demons'.
Wow. You guys have juggled those scriptures around to where I don't recognize anything you're saying. Ttruscott speaks of "a demon raised from Sheol." First of all, demons aren't in Sheol. Sheol is the grave. Second of all, Matthew 13: 38,39 isn't describing the demons at all. Satan and his minions planted the tare seeds, sure, but the tares are the false religious leaders in this world.

Now, it was said that the Nephilim were "crossbreed." How do you figure? The Nephilim were the children of the demons + human women. They were physical, and couldn't go into the spirit realm like their fathers did, to get away from the Flood. All of the Nephilim were drowned in that Flood. Even if they wouldn't have drowned, they couldn't sire children because they were hybrids. So they didn't corrupt any bloodlines.

Where do you get the strange idea that once they were dead, the Nephilim's corrupted bloodlines would turn into evil spirits??? This is so bizarre I can't even imagine. Evil spirits are THE DEMONS....the ones who left their progeny, the Nephilim, and went back to the spirit realm rather than die in the Flood. Evil spirits are not dead people. We know that when a person dies he's really dead, and "the dead know nothing at all." (Eccles. 9:5)


:study:

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Re: How can Lucifer be a fallen angel?

Post #17

Post by Yahu »

[Replying to post 16 by onewithhim]

Sorry, but nobody but JW accept that ridiculous nonsense that Sheol is just the grave. Everyone else, even the Jews for thousands of years believe it is the abode of the spirits of the dead.

Paradise is the abode of the righteous dead in Sheol (pre-cross). Tartarus is the prison in the lowest depths of Sheol where all fallen angels are LOCKED UP until Judgment. Satan rules from Sheol. That is his domain.

Demons are ghosts. Principalities are Nephilim ghosts. Satan/Lucifer is a ghost that rules Sheol/Hades/hell.

You are brainwashed by your cult.

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Post #18

Post by Yahu »

onewithhim wrote: I thought I would add a little to the "grammatical context" concerning the title "satan." (Which means "resister," as was brought out.)
No it doesn't. 'satan' is the verb 'to accuse' not 'to resist'. HaSatan is 'The accusing one' or 'The accuser'. The 'Ha' makes it a singular entity that accuses.

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Re: How can Lucifer be a fallen angel?

Post #19

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Yahu wrote:
.. . nobody but JW accept that ridiculous nonsense that Sheol is just the grave. .


WHAT IS SHEOL ?

SHEOL The Hebrew word simply refers to "the grave" the symbolic last resting place of the dead, ie literally the ultimate condition of all physical creatures (animal or human) at death . It is never associated with activity but rather with inactivity and lack of consciousness. For more details on the biblical meaning of SHEOL please see the following LINK:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 09#p767709

HADES : The GREEK equivalent of "sheol" (see above for definition/description)


ACADEMIC COMMENTARIES

It would perhaps have been better to retain the Hebrew word Sheol, or else render it always by the grave or "the pit" . . . meaning the state of the dead in general - A Dictionary of the Bible (1914), edited by William Smith

"In a sense, "the grave" in a generic sense is a near equivalent, except that Sheol is more a mass grave in which all the dead dwell together. . . .”A Translators Handbook on the Book of Jonah, 1978 Brynmor F. Price and Eugene A. Nida p. 37

"Sheol was for a very long time only a magnified grave, into which all the dead, bad and good alike, prince and peasant, went." - Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

"abode of the dead," the "underworld," "the common grave of mankind" or "pit." It is said to be the destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead, as described in Book of Job (3:11-19)" - The New Wrld Encyclopedia

The English translators of the Authorized Version, or King James Version, translated Sheol 31 times as "hell" 31 times as "grave" and 3 times as "pit"



SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT
ECCLESIASTES 9:10
http://biblehub.com/ecclesiastes/9-10.htm


English Standard Version
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

====================================

New Living Translation
Whatever you do, do well. For when you go to the grave [hebrew "sheol"], there will be no work or planning or knowledge or wisdom.

King James Bible
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

GOD'S WORD Translation
Whatever presents itself for you to do, do it with [all] your might, because there is no work, planning, knowledge, or skill in the grave where you're going.

JPS Tanakh 1917
Whatsoever thy hand attaineth to do by thy strength, that do; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

King James 2000 Bible
Whatsoever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, where you go.

American King James Version
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, where you go.

English Revised Version
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Webster's Bible Translation
Whatever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HADES , GEHENNA, and ... HELLFIRE TORTURE DEBUNKED
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:02 am, edited 19 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: How can Lucifer be a fallen angel?

Post #20

Post by Yahu »

[Replying to post 19 by JehovahsWitness]

4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king (Molech) of Babylon (Babel), and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
...
9 Hell (Sheol) from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead (GHOSTS, Shades of the dead) for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Hell/Sheol is stirred up. The chief ones, the kings in hell, the dead kings in hell are stirred up. How is Sheol a grave here? It states later in the passage that the graves of the kings are intact and their bodies lie in glory in those tombs. It is the spirits of the kings that are stirred up.

10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

And the dead stirred up kings in hell SAY and speak! And what do they say, Oh Lucifer, your dead, you have become like us, you have become weak, you no longer have a body just like us...

11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave (SHEOL), and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

He is DEAD, his body is covered in worms, ie decays and is eaten by worms. Yet other dead kings are talking to him.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Again, it is stated again he is down in hell/Sheol.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Who is the 'They that see thee' but again the stirred up dead kings already in Sheol. And what do they say? 'IS THIS THE MAN ..." Pretty talkative for a corpse. It is their spirits in the common abode for spirits that is talkative.

17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

Each of the dead kings is buried in honor in their graves but they reside in Sheol. Their graves haven't been stirred up, their spirits have.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

But Lucifer is cast out of his physical grave because of the people's hatred of him. He will not lie in glory in his own house/tomb in honor.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

He shall not have an honored grave site because of his wickedness.

The text clearly demonstrates the difference between the physical grave of the kings of the nations and the kings presence in Sheol as a place of the abode of the dead where they talk and even taught the new comer.

You doctrines of soul sleep and Sheol is only the grave is NONSENSE. Sheol as meaning 'the grave' is only one definition of the word. Yes, the corpses in the physical graves are silent, they know nothing but their spirits are no longer there. They are in the common abode of all shades of the dead.

Lucifer is nothing but a ghost! And every individual that ever lived and died up until that time was also in Sheol.

Obviously you haven't read the books of Enoch. Enoch is given a tour of the different sections of Sheol by an angel, granted at that time not many were yet in Sheol but Abel was petitioning for the destruction of Cain's seed in one section.

Hebrew even has a word for the 'spirits of the dead'.

07496 �פר rapha’ raw-faw’
from 07495 in the sense of 07503; n m pl; {See TWOT on 2198 @@ "2198c"}

AV-dead 7, deceased 1; 8
1) ghosts of the dead, shades, spirits

If they don't exist, why even have a word for them? Here is were scripture uses the word for ghosts.

Job 26:5 Dead <07496> things (GHOSTS) are formed from under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof.
Ps 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead <07496, GHOSTS> arise and praise thee? Selah.
Pr 2:18 For her house inclineth unto death, and her paths unto the dead <07496, GHOSTS>.
Pr 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead <07496, GHOSTS> are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.

Here is talks about the loose woman having spirits in her house but those spirits are from the depths of Sheol. This is directly tying ghosts as 'evil spirits' from Sheol the realm of the dead.

Pr 21:16 The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead <07496, GHOSTS>.
Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead <07496, GHOSTS> for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
Isa 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased <07496, GHOSTS>, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead <07496, GHOSTS>.

This last verse Isaiah differentiates between a dead body and a spirit of the dead. The body shall rise and the spirit shall be cast out and rejoin the resurrected body.

Soul sleep and Sheol just meaning the grave is total ridiculous nonsense that is contradicted all over scripture so don't even bother bring up that nonsense again in this thread.

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