How can Lucifer be a fallen angel?

[Yahu]

Lucifer is only referenced once in scripture. It isn't even a name in the original hebrew. Lucifer is Latin from the Latin translation into our modern canon.

The actual passage calls him 'Heylel ben Shachar' which is translated 'Lucifer, son of the morning'. How can he be a fallen angel if he is not 'ben Elohyim' but 'ben Shachar'? I guess people don't know that Shachar was a Canaanite deity that was himself an 'ben El' according to the Canaanites.

Now Heylel (Lucifer) isn't even a name. It is a descriptive title. It means 'light bringer' or 'shining one' and is a common epitaph for a sungod. For example the same thing in Greek is Pheobus, ie 'bright'. Pheobus is a title of Apollo and Apollo means 'the destroyer' in Greek.

Now since Lucifer is from the Latin translation, it is interesting to note that the goddess Diana was Diana Luciferah as well in the Latin, ie the feminine form of Lucifer who was the twin sister of Apollo.

Most christian doctrine assumes that the serpent in the garden was Lucifer yet no where in scripture is this even speculated. Satan doesn't even appear in scripture until the time of Job, well after the flood.

Now if we assume that Shachar actually was an angel that had children then Lucifer at most is the son of a fallen angel who would have been born on earth, lived then died. How can he be anything more then just a ghost?

The passage of Isa 14 talks of Lucifer as a shameful ruler that destroys, then dies, is eaten by worms, descends into sheol where kings in sheol say 'Is this the MAN?'

So how is Lucifer a man?

[Clownboat]

Post 62 (Yahu): "Or that the biblical scriptures are true while the hodgepodge of pagan myths is a mixture of truth and lies but both rooted in the same events."

You offer this as a scenario. You know, how like a Muslim or Mormon might about their holy book. I find this observation relevant when analyzing your claimed possible scenario.

I also asked that you provide the evidence for us to examine that causes you to find ghosts, demons, angels and spirits to be a credible idea. Your silence suggests that you have no evidence. If that is the case, why believe such things exist?

How much clearer do I have to state it?

I am not required to validate scripture in a Theology subforum. Scripture references spirits, demons and angelic beings as well as other gods.

You need to calm down me thinks.
I am not directly challenging your claims about ghosts and demons now am I?

For the 3rd time:
Would you provide the evidence for us to examine that causes you to find ghosts, demons, angels and spirits to be a credible idea?

This is not a challenge. This is a request for info. If you believe in them due to your preferred holy book, then just say so. If you have actual evidence, I sincerely would like to examine it.

There is no debate. They are referenced as valid entities by scripture. The truth of the biblical scriptures is not debate material for this subform, just the interpretation of those scriptures.

Again, this is not a challenge, but a request for clarification: Is your holy book all you base this belief on? It's OK if it is, but if there is more, I would like to examine it.

The existence of a word that means 'spirits, shades of the dead' that is used in scripture is all the proof required.

Is that all the 'proof' that you have though. That is what I'm asking.

I have read the Bible and was a believer for 2 decades. I get the Bible claims already. Is there any other evidence besides your holy book that you would supply for consideration. It's OK if all you have is your book.

You are trying debating the validity of biblical scripture. That is not the purpose of this subforum.

Gah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I accept your holy book evidence because of the sub forum we are in. Are you following? I would like to inquire further as to if there is any other evidence for the supernatural that you have observed that we could also examine. It's OK if all you have is your holy book.

To debate the validity of my statement that pagan myths contain a mixture of truth and lies is easy. Take the origin story of Aphrodite as an example. It is total lies that Aphrodite sprang from the sea full grown as a result of the testicles of Uranus being cast into the sea. It can not be taken as truth but can have some symbolic truth behind it. For example did the castration of an individual lead to her conception? I believe it did. I see the castration of Uranus as the Greek story of the Castration of Noah by Canaan which is only partially referenced in scripture. You have to go to other non-canon books to get more details.

To the bold. You seem sure that pagan myths contain some truth. Why do you find such a statement to be credible. It's OK if you find them credible because you can see parallels with them and your favorite holy book, but I do wonder if there is more to justify such a belief and would ask that if there is, you provide it for examination. I'm not asking you to show that your preferred holy book is true.

The ancient pagan religions were mystery religions. That means they spread false stories to the masses but kept the truth to be known only to those high up in the religion. As you were initiated into higher status of the religion, you got to learn more of the truth behind the religion.

You are free to believe this, I just don't see any actual truth in any of them.
What resonates for me personally is this:
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.

The mere fact that they were mystery religions and only the initiates were allowed access to the truth is all the proof I need that common knowledge of them is a mixture of truth and lies.

I appreciate the explanation, but I don't understand how it doesn't allow for the idea that religions were 100% man made. Isn't 100% man made still an option?

Now I was informed by an initiate of those mystery religions...

You lose me here.

So unless you have actual biblical scripture to counter any of my posts in this tread, we have nothing to debate.

Sorry, but I was seeking information, not debating you at this time.

[JehovahsWitness]

I also asked that you provide the evidence for us to examine that causes you to find ghosts, demons, angels and spirits to be a credible idea.

The bible is quite clear on the existence of spirit forms. The evidence is overwhelming in this regard, posted below are just a few scriptures that support this view.

DANIEL 6:22
My God sent his angel and shut the mouth of the lions.�

JAMES 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

JOHN 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."

I offer the scriptures as evidence because my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, is that in this subforum, scripture can be presented as evidence in theological discussions.

[Yahu]

For the 3rd time:
Would you provide the evidence for us to examine that causes you to find ghosts, demons, angels and spirits to be a credible idea?

FINAL ANSWER!
Because scripture considers them to be credible. Scripture is TRUTH. That is the ONLY thing needed in this Theology subforum. There is nothing to debate about the subject here.

This is NOT an Apologetics subforum. Scripture is considered TRUTH for any debate in this subforum by the rules of this subforum.

In this subforum the canon of the Bible is considered authoritative with respect to the historical consensus of the canon's content. Therefore, the 66 books contained within all canons are considered more authoritative than deuterocanonical books. The latter may be presented in argumentation, but may also be challenged as authoritative. Furthermore, theological analysis should focus primarily on the level of canonical analysis. Criticism of sources, authorship, or redaction with the intent to discredit the authority of the canon are more appropriate for the Christianity and Apologetics subforum. However, such tools may be used to trace historical developments of doctrine or other subjects pertinent to theology. In other words, the Biblical books have theological authority because they are contained within the canon, regardless of any purportedly false claims to authorship and regardless of redactional interpolations. Therefore, wholesale dismissals of entire books of the Bible are not considered valid here. However, certain verses can be dismissed that are considered inauthentic by Biblical scholars and supported by Biblical criticism (such as the Johannine Comma) since such verses may be considered only spuriously canonical.

Debates on the validity of concepts presented in scripture are not to be debated here. If you wish to debate the validity of spirits, ghosts, ... without using scripture as authoritative, you need to do so in another subforum.

I personally have no desire to debate theology with non-believers. I could careless what a non-believer believes is valid or truth. Im not an evangelist.

Now if you wish to use scripture to counter the existence of spirits, ghosts, demons, ... that is permitted here.

[Yahu]

I appreciate the explanation, but I don't understand how it doesn't allow for the idea that religions were 100% man made. Isn't 100% man made still an option?

No, 100% man made is NOT a valid option in this subforum. Those types of debates are for the Apologetic subforums, not theology subforum.

Personal experience with spirits, ghost, angels, demons is totally subjective and not proof in theology. My personal experiences are not relevant to theology but did give me insight into altering my theology.

Have I had personal dealings with them? Yes.

Do I have experience with people involved in mystery religions? Yes. My wife's military roommate (before our marriage) was a high priestess of Ashtoreth (a Canaanite goddess).

Did I learn some of the mysteries behind that religion? Yes.

Do I have experience with dealing with people involved in witchcraft conducted via pagan religions? Yes.

Did those experiences start me questioning standard doctrines and engage in study of differing theology? Yes.

Have I found scriptural backing for those differences? Yes.

Personal experiences are not proof in theology. I grew up having been taught standard theology that I found to be in error and found scriptural backing for my revised position after theological study. I know spirits to exist but obviously can't prove that to anyone not directly involved. In theology, I don't have to prove they exist, just show scriptural references that support my theological position which I have done through out this thread.

The basis of my theology is rooted in facts presented in scripture such as the worldwide flood of Noah, the Tower of Babel and the pre-flood Watchers that conceived giants and mighty men (Gen 6), references from the prophets and Revelation. Non-canon works like the books of Enoch that provide additional information of those events is also presented like the assignment of the spirits of those giants being 'evil spirits' to torment mankind.

The debate in this thread is whether 'evil spirits', demons are fallen angels or just ghosts of dead individuals of angelic descent or man. Common Augustinian doctrine teaches that all demons and Satan are fallen angels. It is not a debate to prove the existence of spiritual beings, gods, angels, ... that are clearly presented in scripture.

Now if your just interested in my personal experiences with those spiritual beings, it is beyond the scope of a forum. I wrote it as a trilogy. If your interested in that, I can email the pdf of it. It is the story of my conflict against a coven of witches when I was in the Air Force back in the late 80s. Over a 100 people were prosecuted and at least a dozen dead.

I started studying the theological doctrines as a result of those personal experiences.

[Yahu]

Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

What did Moses mean when he said in those days 'and also after that'. We know there were giants in the land of Canaan. What is the source of those giants?

Many have proposed that some of the pre-flood giants survived the flood but that is against scripture. It states that 'all life' on land was destroyed. Only those on the ark survived.

Others have proposed that gaintism was passed through one or more of Noah's son's wives. That is also nonsense. Yah destroyed the earth to destroy the Nephilim corruption and allowed Noah survival because Noah was 'pure in his generations'. It makes no sense to destroy all life but what is on the ark only to let that same corruption on the ark. Besides, according to the book of Jasher, Noah's daughers-inlaw were 3 sisters that were close relatives of Noah. They were from a godly family hense no Nephilim corruption.

That only leaves one other option. Giantism was re-introduced after the flood. The angels that caused the problem pre-flood problems were imprisoned to prevent them from causing the same problem again post flood so it requires additional angels to cause the Nephilim corruption post-flood. According to the New Testament, the angels that sinned are bound in Tartarus and their are four other angels bound under the Euphrates. Both groups of those angels are let loose during the events of Revelation. Peter ties the angels in Tartarus to events of the flood. What events at the river Euphrates would be involved with the imprisonment of four additional angels?

The Greeks are descent of Javan. Their golden age when the gods walked among men would be the early generations after Noah. Some of their myths are from pre-flood but that is the age in which the Olympians helped imprison the Titans in Tartarus. That would put those Olympians on the side of Yah helping to imprison the pre-flood Watchers in Tartarus. We also know that those four primary Greek gods/(and goddess) also fell into error and had children according to the Greek religion. They fell into the same error as the pre-flood Watchers but in a later age, ie after the flood. So who are the four angels bound at the Euphrates? IMO that would make them Zeus, Poseidon, Hades and Hera by their Greek names. Who would replace them in their positions of authority on the earth once they were imprisoned? The ancient paganism has its source at the time of Babel.

We know that Yah has four mighty angels around the throne. Were there also four mighty angles to do Yah's will on the earth to enforce Yah's law? Could one of them be the primary prosecutor of the heavenly court, ie a satan? Are they the ones referenced in scripture as the 'four pillars of heaven' or the 'four winds'? When they fell into error, who replaced them on earth? Wasn't mankind given dominion over the earth?

What realms were under the control of Zeus, Poseidon and Hades in the Greek religion? Zeus was a god of the sky, a thunder god. Poseidon was over the realm of the sea and Hades was over the realm of the spirits of the dead in the earth. Now we have the 'prince of the powers of the air', the anti-christ spirit. We have the sea, the realm of the 'great whore' where the sea also gives up its dead and we have the ruler of the realm of the dead, ie hell. The same realms are ruled by major principalities now. We also have 3 dragons referenced in scripture, the cockatrice, Ziz, the dragon of the sky, Leviathan, the sea dragon and Bohemoth, the earth dragon. Who are they references to?

If fallen angels get cast into prison when they commit sin why is Satan and his forces not in prison? Could it be that since they are descent from man, they don't stand judgement until the time set for man to stand judgement?

[Clownboat]

I also asked that you provide the evidence for us to examine that causes you to find ghosts, demons, angels and spirits to be a credible idea.

The bible is quite clear on the existence of spirit forms. The evidence is overwhelming in this regard, posted below are just a few scriptures that support this view.

DANIEL 6:22
My God sent his angel and shut the mouth of the lions.�

JAMES 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

JOHN 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."

I offer the scriptures as evidence because my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, is that in this subforum, scripture can be presented as evidence in theological discussions.

Thank you.
I know about Biblical claims, so I was honestly hopping for more, but if that is all you have, at least you are honest about it.

[Clownboat]

For the 3rd time:
Would you provide the evidence for us to examine that causes you to find ghosts, demons, angels and spirits to be a credible idea?

FINAL ANSWER!
Because scripture considers them to be credible. Scripture is TRUTH. That is the ONLY thing needed in this Theology subforum. There is nothing to debate about the subject here.

This is NOT an Apologetics subforum. Scripture is considered TRUTH for any debate in this subforum by the rules of this subforum.

In this subforum the canon of the Bible is considered authoritative with respect to the historical consensus of the canon's content. Therefore, the 66 books contained within all canons are considered more authoritative than deuterocanonical books. The latter may be presented in argumentation, but may also be challenged as authoritative. Furthermore, theological analysis should focus primarily on the level of canonical analysis. Criticism of sources, authorship, or redaction with the intent to discredit the authority of the canon are more appropriate for the Christianity and Apologetics subforum. However, such tools may be used to trace historical developments of doctrine or other subjects pertinent to theology. In other words, the Biblical books have theological authority because they are contained within the canon, regardless of any purportedly false claims to authorship and regardless of redactional interpolations. Therefore, wholesale dismissals of entire books of the Bible are not considered valid here. However, certain verses can be dismissed that are considered inauthentic by Biblical scholars and supported by Biblical criticism (such as the Johannine Comma) since such verses may be considered only spuriously canonical.

Debates on the validity of concepts presented in scripture are not to be debated here. If you wish to debate the validity of spirits, ghosts, ... without using scripture as authoritative, you need to do so in another subforum.

I personally have no desire to debate theology with non-believers. I could careless what a non-believer believes is valid or truth. Im not an evangelist.

Now if you wish to use scripture to counter the existence of spirits, ghosts, demons, ... that is permitted here.

Same answer to you.

Thank you.
I know about Biblical claims, so I was honestly hopping for more, but if that is all you have, at least you are honest about it.

[JehovahsWitness]

Thank you.
I know about Biblical claims, so I was honestly hopping for more, but if that is all you have, at least you are honest about it.

You are most welcome,

In this forum biblical evidence carries the authority, an an authoritive answer is the best one can obtain. If this were over in another subforum there would be a basis for questioning that authority, but as it is here in TD&D the highest authority has been refered to. For some, more satisfying answers might be found by moving over to C&A or even Science and Religion, I suppose it dépends on what one is looking for. Personally I generally don't look for instructions how to fix my car in a cookbook, but when I want to make great whaffles...

Respect,


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[Clownboat]

Thank you.
I know about Biblical claims, so I was honestly hopping for more, but if that is all you have, at least you are honest about it.

You are most welcome,

In this forum biblical evidence carries the authority, an an authoritive answer is the best one can obtain. If this were over in another subforum there would be a basis for questioning that authority, but as it is here in TD&D the highest authority has been refered to. For some, more satisfying answers might be found by moving over to C&A or even Science and Religion, I suppose it dépends on what one is looking for. Personally I generally don't look for instructions how to fix my car in a cookbook, but when I want to make great whaffles...

Respect,


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

Let's be very clear, your justification for believing in ghosts, demons, angels and what have you IS good enough for this sub forum. That, I do not contest.

I was hoping you actually had more than that, but you don't, so now I know I can move on because there is nothing new for me to see here.
Again, thanks for your honesty that a religious holy book making the claims about ghosts, demons and angels is all that you have to justify your belief that such things actually exist.

Such reasoning is good enough for this sub-forum, so unless there is anything new, I will be moving on since I do not wish to challenge your holy book here.
Be well.

[JehovahsWitness]

I was hoping you actually had more than that.

What you were "hoping"for, indeed your personal feelings are entirely irrelevent - facts are not subject to feelings so there is a possibility only your mother actually cares what you were hoping for. In a debate forum, I address the points raised based on the confines of the subforum in which I am posting.

Best Regards with your future discussions, if you do move over to C&A.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS