What is the point?

[postroad]

If a simple text can be manipulated from a plain reading into this?

postroad wrote:

I wonder what happened to these individuals?


Matthew 27:51-53New International Version (NIV)

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.


JehovahsWitness wrote
QUESTION : Were people ressurected when Jesus died?

Matthew 27:52, 53 reads that at the moment Jesus expired “the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.�

It is true this is a perplexing verse and quite ambiguious. Firstly, however it should be noted that the verse speaks not of the "dead" but of the 'bodies of the saints' being raised. Strictly speaking, the account does not say that the “bodies� came to life. It merely says that they were raised up or thrown out. The Greek verb e‧gei′ro, meaning to “raise up,� does not always refer to a resurrection. It can, among other things, also mean to “lift out� from a pit or to “get up� from the ground. (Matthew 12:11; 17:7; Luke 1:69).

Also the “they� (that that went into the holy city) could not refer to the “bodies,� because all pronouns in the Greek have gender and “they� in this case is in the masculine, whereas “bodies� is in the neuter gender.

Alternative renderings thus can read:

“Tombs were laid open, and many bodies of those buried there were tossed upright. In this posture they projected from the graves and were seen by many who passed by the place on their way back to the city.�

and the NWT "many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were thrown up, (and persons, coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people.�

All of which convey the thought that when Jesus died the accompanying earthquake broke open tombs near Jerusalem and thus exposed corpses to persons who visited the tombs and brought news of the event into Jerusalem.

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

What's the point in debating theology?

'Cause God gave his holy guidance to the original authors.

Only he didn't think to do the same for the translators.

[Zzyzx]

.
[Replying to post 1 by postroad]

“Creative interpretation� is often used by Apologists attempting to “explain� how irrational stories “might have happened�.

The point of debating against such tactics is to expose them as being transparent efforts to stretch credulity. Perhaps some Apologists actually believe the “explanations�; however, it is doubtful that they are convincing to readers who apply critical thinking, discernment, judgment to evaluate what is presented.

As mentioned elsewhere, a great deal of word play, amateur translations, and definition warping are employed in such “justification� efforts – and is not likely to escape notice of astute readers. Of course, it the audience is considered to be gullible and naïve, any story will do. I give readers more credit (and intend my comments for their evaluation rather than making any attempt to persuade debate opponents).

[Divine Insight]

It wouldn't be nearly as bad for the theists if this was a rare and extreme example.

The problem for theologians is that this sort of thing needs to be done for just about every page of the Bible from the beginning of Genesis to the end of Revelation. It's just a never-ending stream is extremely absurd apologies that are just as unconvincing as the gibberish they are trying to apologize for.

In fact, the apologies actually basically demand that the original texts are "literally wrong". This is why the apologies are always based on a "non-literal" interpretation.

Because the Bible is ALWAYS "literally wrong" according to the theists.

As far as I can see, all the Christian apologists are doing is proclaiming that they "literally" reject the Bible.

They flat out reject what it literally has to say.

[rikuoamero]

Okay so the image I'm getting in my head is that the bodies were shot out into the air as if from a catapult?

Also I have to point out. You have the quote from Matthew
"The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life."
In English, that can only mean one thing. The bodies became alive again, they moved of their own accord.
Can you confirm me (since you seem to have knowledge of Greek) if that is indeed the correct translation? You refer to a Greek verb that does not always refer to a resurrection. If so, where did the translator get the word 'life' from?

Also, we still have kinda the same problem. Whether bodies being shot out of the ground, or bodies being resurrected, it's still an 'event' that is mentioned precisely once that we know about. No other ancient document that we have mentions this.

[Student]

Okay so the image I'm getting in my head is that the bodies were shot out into the air as if from a catapult?

Also I have to point out. You have the quote from Matthew
"The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life."
In English, that can only mean one thing. The bodies became alive again, they moved of their own accord.
Can you confirm me (since you seem to have knowledge of Greek) if that is indeed the correct translation? You refer to a Greek verb that does not always refer to a resurrection. If so, where did the translator get the word 'life' from?

To be fair to Jehovahswitness, his gem of a translation is, I believe, copied verbatim from the Watchtower magazine.

So, whilst he might be guilty of plagiarism, he is quite innocent of the charge of having any knowledge of Greek.

[marco]

Matthew 27:51-53New International Version (NIV)

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

There may come a time when this type of fiction is studied in the same way we examine the Greek and Roman myths. People in the future will ask: "Was this actually believed? Could minds have accepted such tales?"

People who are led to believe in absurdities can carry out atrocities. Perhaps we should not be extending benign tolerance to religions that manifest the stirrings of atrocities. Allowing little children to be brought up in poisonous fictions is sowing the seeds of later terrorism perhaps.

[postroad]

Another post in another thread which seems to belong in this thread


Yahu wrote

Spiritual things are discerned spiritually. One of the gifts of the Spirit is discernment of spirits. Those that have the gift can discern if teaching aligns with the agreement of the Holy Spirit or it is of some other spirit.

I have that gift and you don't want to know what spirits I sense coming from you. Your only purpose is to disrupt, undermine or discredit scripture.

The area of the study of prophecy isn't for the lay person anyway. Prophecy is to be interpreted and tested by other prophets. Once it is fulfilled, then the lay people will understand that it happened as prophesied. The unbeliever will get nothing from the bible because of the spiritual bondage they are in.

[Kenisaw]

[Replying to post 1 by postroad]

I saw a documentary on this. It was called "Weekend At Bernie's"...

It's funny how that passage never comes up in conversation. It's like people just want to forget that it is in the Bible...

[Tired of the Nonsense]

If a simple text can be manipulated from a plain reading into this?

postroad wrote:

I wonder what happened to these individuals?


Matthew 27:51-53New International Version (NIV)

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.


JehovahsWitness wrote
QUESTION : Were people ressurected when Jesus died?

Matthew 27:52, 53 reads that at the moment Jesus expired “the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.�

It is true this is a perplexing verse and quite ambiguious. Firstly, however it should be noted that the verse speaks not of the "dead" but of the 'bodies of the saints' being raised. Strictly speaking, the account does not say that the “bodies� came to life. It merely says that they were raised up or thrown out. The Greek verb e‧gei′ro, meaning to “raise up,� does not always refer to a resurrection. It can, among other things, also mean to “lift out� from a pit or to “get up� from the ground. (Matthew 12:11; 17:7; Luke 1:69).

Also the “they� (that that went into the holy city) could not refer to the “bodies,� because all pronouns in the Greek have gender and “they� in this case is in the masculine, whereas “bodies� is in the neuter gender.

Alternative renderings thus can read:

“Tombs were laid open, and many bodies of those buried there were tossed upright. In this posture they projected from the graves and were seen by many who passed by the place on their way back to the city.�

and the NWT "many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were thrown up, (and persons, coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people.�

All of which convey the thought that when Jesus died the accompanying earthquake broke open tombs near Jerusalem and thus exposed corpses to persons who visited the tombs and brought news of the event into Jerusalem.

This brings up a whole bunch of interesting questions. Were the individuals who were walking the streets of Jerusalem an early version of the walking dead? Were the citizens of Jerusalem forced to stab them all in the brain and then rebury them? Or did they, after establishing the intended symbolism of their "uprising," simply go and crawl back into their graves after an appropriate amount of time?

On the other hand, if they were truly resurrected to full life, wouldn't the obvious course of action for them have been to attempt to return to their former homes? Where else would they go? It must have been rather traumatic for the families to have great grand dad Enoch whom they buried twenty years ago suddenly come walking in. Which makes it even more peculiar that no word of this occurrence ever got out, other than these two verses in Gospel Matthew.

JehovahsWitness' explanation for what Matt.27:52-53 actually means, as opposed to what it actually says, is a perfect example of what I generally refer to as "Christian mythology." Which is to say, an attempt by Christians to make what the words of the text actually say conform to Christian popular opinion of what the author surely must have intended to say when he wrote the document. It's a technique which allows for all possible discrepancies to be resolved according to what is known to have been intended by God in the first place.