What is the point?

[postroad]

If a simple text can be manipulated from a plain reading into this?

postroad wrote:

I wonder what happened to these individuals?


Matthew 27:51-53New International Version (NIV)

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.


JehovahsWitness wrote
QUESTION : Were people ressurected when Jesus died?

Matthew 27:52, 53 reads that at the moment Jesus expired the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

It is true this is a perplexing verse and quite ambiguious. Firstly, however it should be noted that the verse speaks not of the "dead" but of the 'bodies of the saints' being raised. Strictly speaking, the account does not say that the bodies came to life. It merely says that they were raised up or thrown out. The Greek verb egeiro, meaning to raise up, does not always refer to a resurrection. It can, among other things, also mean to lift out from a pit or to get up from the ground. (Matthew 12:11; 17:7; Luke 1:69).

Also the they (that that went into the holy city) could not refer to the bodies, because all pronouns in the Greek have gender and they in this case is in the masculine, whereas bodies is in the neuter gender.

Alternative renderings thus can read:

Tombs were laid open, and many bodies of those buried there were tossed upright. In this posture they projected from the graves and were seen by many who passed by the place on their way back to the city.

and the NWT "many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were thrown up, (and persons, coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people.

All of which convey the thought that when Jesus died the accompanying earthquake broke open tombs near Jerusalem and thus exposed corpses to persons who visited the tombs and brought news of the event into Jerusalem.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 1 by postroad]

I saw a documentary on this. It was called "Weekend At Bernie's"...

It's funny how that passage never comes up in conversation. It's like people just want to forget that it is in the Bible...

I believe it was an attempt to show fulfillment of prophecy.

Ezekiel 37:13-15New International Version (NIV)

13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1 by postroad]

I saw a documentary on this. It was called "Weekend At Bernie's"...

It's funny how that passage never comes up in conversation. It's like people just want to forget that it is in the Bible...

I believe it was an attempt to show fulfillment of prophecy.

Ezekiel 37:13-15New International Version (NIV)

13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.

Ezekiel? If memory serves, it 'predicts' the destruction of Tyre by Nebuchadnezzar and that it would 'never again be rebuilt'.
Oh wait...that never happened. So if one wants to claim that Ezekiel 'predicted' the zombie horde in Jerusalem, one would have to explain the false prophecy about Tyre.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Another post in another thread which seems to belong in this thread


Yahu wrote

Spiritual things are discerned spiritually. One of the gifts of the Spirit is discernment of spirits. Those that have the gift can discern if teaching aligns with the agreement of the Holy Spirit or it is of some other spirit.

I have that gift and you don't want to know what spirits I sense coming from you. Your only purpose is to disrupt, undermine or discredit scripture.

The area of the study of prophecy isn't for the lay person anyway. Prophecy is to be interpreted and tested by other prophets. Once it is fulfilled, then the lay people will understand that it happened as prophesied. The unbeliever will get nothing from the bible because of the spiritual bondage they are in.

This is just another way of declaring that: "We reserve the right to declare that what we believe to be valid and true IS valid and true according to our declaration." It's another version of a common declaration so frequently made by Christians which is, "You have to first believe in it and then it becomes believable." Which is clearly true, but it is not an argument. It is simply a declaration. It's a case of, "It's all true because I said so and I believe it so that settles it." These are not arguments, they are statements of belief and no debate is possible with this as the starting point.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 1 by postroad]

I saw a documentary on this. It was called "Weekend At Bernie's"...

It's funny how that passage never comes up in conversation. It's like people just want to forget that it is in the Bible...

I believe it was an attempt to show fulfillment of prophecy.

Ezekiel 37:13-15New International Version (NIV)

13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.

Ezekiel? If memory serves, it 'predicts' the destruction of Tyre by Nebuchadnezzar and that it would 'never again be rebuilt'.
Oh wait...that never happened. So if one wants to claim that Ezekiel 'predicted' the zombie horde in Jerusalem, one would have to explain the false prophecy about Tyre.

Shh!! Just because something didn't happen as plainly recorded doesn't mean its not true.

We are simply Spiritually unable to grasp its real meaning as it becomes progressively revealed to those more enabled by God.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to postroad]

Shh!! Just because something didn't happen as plainly recorded doesn't mean its not true.

We are simply Spiritually unable to grasp its real meaning as it becomes progressively revealed to those more enabled by God.

As Christians are fond of claiming, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If not having evidence of a thing cannot be considered evidence that the thing is not true, what exact evidence would one expect to find? Lack of evidence is in fact the ONLY sort of evidence that one should ever expect to find of something which does not exist, or is not true.

[JehovahsWitness]

You have the quote from Matthew
"The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life." In English, that can only mean one thing. The bodies became alive again, they moved of their own accord.

Can you confirm me (since you seem to have knowledge of Greek) if that is indeed the correct translation? You refer to a Greek verb that does not always refer to a resurrection. If so, where did the translator get the word 'life' from?

QUESTION: But does Matthew 27:52 refer to the dead being raised "to life"?

The New International Version (NIV) speaks about bodies "raised to life." and the New Living Translation (NLT) speaks of bodies being "raised from the dead". However, by far the majority of translators do NOT refer to being raised "to life" but only refer to "raised".
http://biblehub.com/matthew/27-52.htm

The greek word for life (zoe) does not appear in the text neither does the word that is frequently used in the Christian Greek Scriptures with reference to a resurrection (anastasis). The word employed at Matthew 27:52 "egeiro". The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon lists its meanings as follows:

Definition
1. to arouse, cause to rise a. to arouse from sleep, to awake
b. to arouse from the sleep of death, to recall the dead to life
c. to cause to rise from a seat or bed etc.
d. to raise up, produce, cause to appear

1. to cause to appear, bring before the public
2. to raise up, stir up, against one
3. to raise up i.e. cause to be born
4. of buildings, to raise up, construct, erect

So the word itself simply means "to arise", what is risen from (a chair, sleep, bed, the grave...) and what is arisen TO (a promotion, life, or the street) is not intrinsic in the word and must therefore be implied from context. The translators of the NIV and NLT have decided that the context implies from death to life (see 1B above) to legitimately add "to life" to clarify their reading but one could just as legitimately have read it to be 1D (above) and translated the clause "bodies appeared" .



JEHOVAHS WITNESS




Was there a zombie apocalypse the day Jesus died ?
viewtopic.php?p=775340#p775340

Why did Jesus feel abandonned at his death?
viewtopic.php?p=933256#p933256

[Zzyzx]

.
Matthew 27:52, 53 (NIV) reads that at the moment Jesus expired the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

The New International Version (NIV) speaks about bodies "raised to life." and the New Living Translation (NLT) speaks of bodies being "raised from the dead". However, by far the majority of translators do NOT refer to being raised "to life" but only refer to "raised".
http://biblehub.com/matthew/27-52.htm

Snip

The greek word for life (zoe) does not appear in the text neither does the word that is frequently used in the Christian Greek Scriptures with reference to a resurrection (anastasis). The word employed at Matthew 27:52 "egeiro". The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon lists its meanings as follows:

Snip

So the word itself simply means "to arise", what is risen from (a chair, sleep, bed, the grave...) and what is arisen TO (a promotion, life, or the street) is not intrinsic in the word and must therefore be implied from context. The translators of the NIV and NLT have decided that the context implies from death to life (see 1B above) to legitimately add "to life" to clarify their reading but one could just as legitimately have read it to be 1D (above) and translated the clause "bodies appeared" .

Excellent. Bible translators cannot agree about what the words mean " so an anonymous poster on the Internet can settle the issue by saying what it really means or what it could mean.

That sounds a bit akin to an airline passenger who has read a Learn to Fly book telling experienced airline captains how to land during difficult conditions -- and telling others "My Learn to Fly book is better than your Learn to Fly book."

[postroad]

The tombs broke open and the bodies were raise at the moment of his death and yet the bodies only came forth after his resurrection and went into the city. I would imagine that if the dead bodies had simply been expelled from the grave at the moment of Jesus's death ,the author could have saved himself a lot of words by simply stating so.

Were these all fresh bodies or did the Jews practice some sort of skeletal articulation by stringing the bones together in order that they could somehow enter the city and be recognized as something other than jumbled bones.

What is the theological significance of only the saints having their remains spewed forth and put on display for the many?

I am becoming curious as to the reason the standard translation appears to be unacceptable to you?

[Zzyzx]

.

I am becoming curious as to the reason the standard translation appears to be unacceptable to you?

It appears as though common use English language Bibles (or translations) are unacceptable to people when it is pointed out that Bible tales don't make sense (or pass the smell test -- pun intended regards those dead bodies).

No matter how much word play and "creative translation", or "interpretation" is employed, the story about long-dead "saints" doing ANYTHING doesn't fit with what we know of the real world. Of course, real world information and knowledge do not dissuade fervent believers from accepting the tale(s) as literal truth.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 16 by JehovahsWitness]

QUESTION: But does Matthew 27:52 refer to the dead being raised "to life"?

The New International Version (NIV) speaks about bodies "raised to life." and the New Living Translation (NLT) speaks of bodies being "raised from the dead". However, by far the majority of translators do NOT refer to being raised "to life" but only refer to "raised".
http://biblehub.com/matthew/27-52.htm

The greek word for life (zoe) does not appear in the text neither does the word that is frequently used in the Christian Greek Scriptures with reference to a resurrection (anastasis). The word employed at Matthew 27:52 "egeiro". The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon lists its meanings as follows:
Quote:

Definition
1. to arouse, cause to rise a. to arouse from sleep, to awake
b. to arouse from the sleep of death, to recall the dead to life
c. to cause to rise from a seat or bed etc.
d. to raise up, produce, cause to appear

1. to cause to appear, bring before the public
2. to raise up, stir up, against one
3. to raise up i.e. cause to be born
4. of buildings, to raise up, construct, erect


So the word itself simply means "to arise", what is risen from (a chair, sleep, bed, the grave...) and what is arisen TO (a promotion, life, or the street) is not intrinsic in the word and must therefore be implied from context. The translators of the NIV and NLT have decided that the context implies from death to life (see 1B above) to legitimately add "to life" to clarify their reading but one could just as legitimately have read it to be 1D (above) and translated the clause "bodies appeared"

I tend to refer to corpses that come back to life and then engage in physical activities as "reanimated. "Gospel Matthew indicates that these "many" corpses left their graves and returned to Jerusalem. Is it fair to refer to then as "reanimated," in your opinion?