What is the point?

[postroad]

If a simple text can be manipulated from a plain reading into this?

postroad wrote:

I wonder what happened to these individuals?


Matthew 27:51-53New International Version (NIV)

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.


JehovahsWitness wrote
QUESTION : Were people ressurected when Jesus died?

Matthew 27:52, 53 reads that at the moment Jesus expired “the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.�

It is true this is a perplexing verse and quite ambiguious. Firstly, however it should be noted that the verse speaks not of the "dead" but of the 'bodies of the saints' being raised. Strictly speaking, the account does not say that the “bodies� came to life. It merely says that they were raised up or thrown out. The Greek verb e‧gei′ro, meaning to “raise up,� does not always refer to a resurrection. It can, among other things, also mean to “lift out� from a pit or to “get up� from the ground. (Matthew 12:11; 17:7; Luke 1:69).

Also the “they� (that that went into the holy city) could not refer to the “bodies,� because all pronouns in the Greek have gender and “they� in this case is in the masculine, whereas “bodies� is in the neuter gender.

Alternative renderings thus can read:

“Tombs were laid open, and many bodies of those buried there were tossed upright. In this posture they projected from the graves and were seen by many who passed by the place on their way back to the city.�

and the NWT "many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were thrown up, (and persons, coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people.�

All of which convey the thought that when Jesus died the accompanying earthquake broke open tombs near Jerusalem and thus exposed corpses to persons who visited the tombs and brought news of the event into Jerusalem.

[Student]

QUESTION: But does Matthew 27:52 refer to the dead being raised "to life"?

The New International Version (NIV) speaks about bodies "raised to life." and the New Living Translation (NLT) speaks of bodies being "raised from the dead". However, by far the majority of translators do NOT refer to being raised "to life" but only refer to "raised".
http://biblehub.com/matthew/27-52.htm

The greek word for life (zoe) does not appear in the text neither does the word that is frequently used in the Christian Greek Scriptures with reference to a resurrection (anastasis). The word employed at Matthew 27:52 "egeiro". The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon lists its meanings as follows:

Definition
1. to arouse, cause to rise a. to arouse from sleep, to awake
b. to arouse from the sleep of death, to recall the dead to life
c. to cause to rise from a seat or bed etc.
d. to raise up, produce, cause to appear

1. to cause to appear, bring before the public
2. to raise up, stir up, against one
3. to raise up i.e. cause to be born
4. of buildings, to raise up, construct, erect

So the word itself simply means "to arise", what is risen from (a chair, sleep, bed, the grave...) and what is arisen TO (a promotion, life, or the street) is not intrinsic in the word and must therefore be implied from context. The translators of the NIV and NLT have decided that the context implies from death to life (see 1B above) to legitimately add "to life" to clarify their reading but one could just as legitimately have read it to be 1D (above) and translated the clause "bodies appeared" .

[font=Times New Roman]The words for life [ζωὴ; z�ē] and resurrection [ἀνάστασις; anastasis] are also missing from Matthew 28:5-7. We do, however, find the same verb [�γεῖ�ω; egeir�]:

Mt 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.
28:6 He is not here: for he is risen [ἠγέ�θη; ēgerthē], as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
28:7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen [ἠγέ�θη; ēgerthē] from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

Applying your arguments to Matthew 28:5-7, we might just as easily claim that Jesus' body simply appeared in Galilee - he was after all the son of god so his [presumably] still lifeless body was propelled just that bit farther.[/font]

[marco]

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

There is no problem in accepting this if we discover that the event was repeated and the repetition well documented. We are still waiting for this repetition but of course you never know what the wind - or an earthquake - will produce. The anonymous theatricality tells us all we need to know about Gospel truth.

[JehovahsWitness]

Matthew indicates that these "many" corpses left their graves and returned to Jerusalem.

MATTHEW 27:53 King James Bible
"And came out of the graves [...] and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."
http://biblehub.com/matthew/27-53.htm

Many readers presume that it was the "raised bodies" that subsequently came out of the graves [gravesites], went into the city and appeared to many, but since Matthew doesn't actually say this, we need to look back at the orginal language for clarification as WHO did WHAT in verse 53.

In Greek all words have gender (feminine, masculine or neuter) which can be expressed in singular or plural forms. In this language verbs must agree with the case (gender/number) of subject, this is done by changing the end of the verb. So by looking at the end of the verb we can tell if one (or more than one) are performing the action and whether it was performed by lot of "shes" a lot of "hes" or a lot of "its". This is why Greek tends to leave out pronouns, since you already have the information a pronoun provides by looking at the end of the verb.

In greek the word "bodies" (somata) is neuter but the verbal adjective EKSELQONTES in verse 53 "came out of "/"came forth from" the graves (gravesite)is masculine. So whatever or whoever it was that came forth - verse 53 (and subsequently when on to the holy city), the language does NOT allow for them to be "the bodies".

http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/27-52.htm

For more on this see continued discussion HERE
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 33#p775533


While the above is clear (from the verb ending) in Greek, its not clear in English since English plural pronouns do not carry gender case. (In short the Greek reader would know immediately that those that "came forth" from the gravesite in verse 53 were NOT the bodies. The English reader, looking at a literal translation, would not). If a translator wants to maximize its accuracy in this verse (53) by seeking to reflect the linguistic indication in the original Greek language, inserting the English pronoun ("they") in itself, though perfectly legitimate, would not be enough.


Further reading
http://onlytruegod.org/defense/matt.27.52.htm



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BIBLICAL SEQUENCING, INERRANCY and ...THE RESSURECTION EVENTS

[postroad]

Matthew indicates that these "many" corpses left their graves and returned to Jerusalem.

MATTHEW 27:53 King James Bible
"And came out of the graves [...] and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."
http://biblehub.com/matthew/27-53.htm

Many readers presume that it was the "raised bodies" that subsequently came out of the graves [gravesites], went into the city and appeared to many, but since Matthew doesn't actually say this, we need to look back at the orginal language for clarification as WHO did WHAT in verse 53.

In Greek all words have gender (feminine, masculine or neuter) which can be expressed in singular or plural forms. In this language verbs must agree with the case (gender/number) of subject, this is done by changing the end of the verb. So by looking at the end of the verb we can tell if one (or more than one) are performing the action and whether it was performed by lot of "shes" a lot of "hes" or a lot of "its". This is why Greek tends to leave out pronouns, since you already have the information a pronoun provides by looking at the end of the verb.

In greek the word "bodies" (somata: σώματα) is neuter but the verbal adjective EKSELQONTES in verse 53 "came out of "/"came forth from" the graves (gravesite)is masculine. So whatever or whoever it was that came forth and subsequently when on to the holy city, the language does NOT allow for them to be "the bodies".

[img src="http://s15.postimg.org/dgro0a7l7/mat53_A.png" alt=" "]

While the above is clear (from the verb ending) in Greek, its not clear in English since English plural pronouns do carry gender case. (In short the Greek reader would know that those that "came forth" from the gravesite in verse 53 were NOT the bodies, but the English reader would not). If a translation wants to maximize its accuracy in this verse (53) by seeking to reflect the linguistic indication in the original Greek language, inserting the English pronoun ("they") in itself, though perfectly legitimate, would not be enough.


Further reading
http://onlytruegod.org/defense/matt.27.52.htm

If the author wanted to convey that the bodies had been raised to life that would mean they no longer remained bodies but in fact were again living beings.

So in fact the bodies did not appear unto many but rather fully human resurrected beings went into the city exactly as the author intended it to be understood.

How else could they have been recognised as saints if they had not interacted with people who would not have recognised them from physical features alone?

I think JehovahsWitness may have proved the translators correct in their interpretation.

[PghPanther]

From the OP:

What's the point in debating theology?

'Cause God gave his holy guidance to the original authors.

Only he didn't think to do the same for the translators.

You Nailed it JK........exactly!

[PghPanther]

If a simple text can be manipulated from a plain reading into this?

postroad wrote:

I wonder what happened to these individuals?


Matthew 27:51-53New International Version (NIV)

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.


JehovahsWitness wrote
QUESTION : Were people ressurected when Jesus died?

Matthew 27:52, 53 reads that at the moment Jesus expired “the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.�

It is true this is a perplexing verse and quite ambiguious. Firstly, however it should be noted that the verse speaks not of the "dead" but of the 'bodies of the saints' being raised. Strictly speaking, the account does not say that the “bodies� came to life. It merely says that they were raised up or thrown out. The Greek verb e‧gei′ro, meaning to “raise up,� does not always refer to a resurrection. It can, among other things, also mean to “lift out� from a pit or to “get up� from the ground. (Matthew 12:11; 17:7; Luke 1:69).

Also the “they� (that that went into the holy city) could not refer to the “bodies,� because all pronouns in the Greek have gender and “they� in this case is in the masculine, whereas “bodies� is in the neuter gender.

Alternative renderings thus can read:

“Tombs were laid open, and many bodies of those buried there were tossed upright. In this posture they projected from the graves and were seen by many who passed by the place on their way back to the city.�

and the NWT "many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were thrown up, (and persons, coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people.�

All of which convey the thought that when Jesus died the accompanying earthquake broke open tombs near Jerusalem and thus exposed corpses to persons who visited the tombs and brought news of the event into Jerusalem.

Has it occurred to anyone that there would be a variety of decayed states from days to years.....decades or more of these bodies and what they looked like?

How would anyone know about these bodies being saints if they were bags of bones or mummified in appearance?..

...and how come this account is not mentioned in any other gospel account in or out of the canon?.........not mentioned in any writings of Paul?........no accounts in secular history of Rome?

The Matthew stories says they (the bodies) went into Jerusalem and witnessed to the Glory of God to many there....................Ouch!!...............

I think if a corpse showed up at my door to proclaim God's glory I'd first cry out holy (blank)........and then find collection of it in the back of my pants....

Me thinks the gospel writer of the book with Matthews name on it took too seriously some of the oral embellishments about this Christ character stories that circulated among believers in Greece at that time........and the grave story in those verses takes the cake.

Even in my earlier days of excitement of being "born again" in my Christian life at that time when I came across these verses I said to myself "hey wait a minute..........this is getting creepy"

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Matthew indicates that these "many" corpses left their graves and returned to Jerusalem.

MATTHEW 27:53 King James Bible
"And came out of the graves [...] and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."
http://biblehub.com/matthew/27-53.htm

Many readers presume that it was the "raised bodies" that subsequently came out of the graves [gravesites], went into the city and appeared to many, but since Matthew doesn't actually say this, we need to look back at the orginal language for clarification as WHO did WHAT in verse 53.

In Greek all words have gender (feminine, masculine or neuter) which can be expressed in singular or plural forms. In this language verbs must agree with the case (gender/number) of subject, this is done by changing the end of the verb. So by looking at the end of the verb we can tell if one (or more than one) are performing the action and whether it was performed by lot of "shes" a lot of "hes" or a lot of "its". This is why Greek tends to leave out pronouns, since you already have the information a pronoun provides by looking at the end of the verb.

In greek the word "bodies" (somata: σώματα) is neuter but the verbal adjective EKSELQONTES in verse 53 "came out of "/"came forth from" the graves (gravesite)is masculine. So whatever or whoever it was that came forth - verse 53 (and subsequently when on to the holy city), the language does NOT allow for them to be "the bodies".


http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/27-52.htm

While the above is clear (from the verb ending) in Greek, its not clear in English since English plural pronouns do not carry gender case. (In short the Greek reader would know immediately that those that "came forth" from the gravesite in verse 53 were NOT the bodies. The English reader, looking at a literal translation, would not). If a translator wants to maximize its accuracy in this verse (53) by seeking to reflect the linguistic indication in the original Greek language, inserting the English pronoun ("they") in itself, though perfectly legitimate, would not be enough.


Further reading
http://onlytruegod.org/defense/matt.27.52.htm

Let's take a look at what the direct Greek-Interlinear NT has to say on this matter.

Scripture 4 All @ http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte ... _Index.htm
Greek Interlinear Bible (NT)
[52]
kai ta mnEmeia aneOchthEsan kai polla sOmata(σώματα) tOn kekoimEmenOn hagiOn EgerthE
and the memorial-vaults(tombs) were-up-opened(were-opened) and many bodies of-the having-been-reposed(having-been-put-to-repose) holy-ones was-roused

[53]
kai exelthontes ek tEn mnEmeiOn meta tEn egersin autou eisElthon eis tEn hagian polin
and out-coming(coming out) out of-the memorial vaults(tombs) after the rousing of-Him they into-came(they entered) into the holy city

kai enephanisthEsan pollois
and are-in-appeared(disclosed) to-many
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte ... /mat27.pdf

Now notice that the Greek word sOmata (σώματα) simply translates as "bodies." Try it for yourself. Copy σώματα and enter it into the Greek to English translator. Notice that there is no hint of the word meaning ghosts or spirits or in any way less than fully corporeal.
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=c ... ranslation

And so we seem to have yet again an example of what the words of the text actually say not really meaning what Christians declare that they were actually intended to mean. Because there is not a hint of the " bodies of-the having-been-reposed(having-been-put-to-repose) holy-ones" being only in spirit form or in any way incorporeal. In fact the text specifically refers to them as "SOmata" (σώματα/bodies) which physically came up out of their graves. Now the questions are: What became of these individuals, and why does the author of Gospel Matthew, writing decades after the fact, seem to have been the only one to have known about it?

[JehovahsWitness]

Now notice that the Greek word sOmata (σώματα) simply translates as "bodies." [...] Notice that there is no hint of the word meaning ghosts or spirits or in any way less than fully corporeal.

Where did I mention "ghosts or spirits" or suggest that the text mentioned anything that wasn't "fully corporeal"?

Now notice that the Greek word sOmata (σώματα) simply translates as "bodies."

In greek the word "bodies" (somata: σώματα) is neuter

Could you be confusing one of my posts with someone elses?

JW

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Now notice that the Greek word sOmata (σώματα) simply translates as "bodies." [...] Notice that there is no hint of the word meaning ghosts or spirits or in any way less than fully corporeal.

Where did I mention "ghosts or spirits" or suggest that the text mentioned anything that wasn't "fully corporeal"?

Now notice that the Greek word sOmata (σώματα) simply translates as "bodies."

In greek the word "bodies" (somata: σώματα) is neuter

Could you be confusing one of my posts with someone elses?

JW

What exactly is it that you are suggesting then? Did the corpses of the dead come out of their graves and wander the streets of Jerusalem as written, or did they not?

[Yahu]

If a simple text can be manipulated from a plain reading into this?

Considering the Theology, Doctrine and Dogma subforum IS FOR discussions of how passages are interpreted by those that take scripture as truth, what purpose does a non-believer have even going there to post?

Considering you don't take the scripture as authoritative, and just want to disrupt or discredit those that do, why even post there when doing so is in violation of the subforum rules?

If you want to argue with christians over the validity of scripture this is the subforum to do so. The TD&D subforum is NOT.

That is exactly the reason I rarely post in this subforum. I could care less how a non-believer tries to interpret scripture. They are reading other people's mail. The NT was primarily letters written by Christians to Christians. I don't expect them to understand spiritual things considering you have to lay down principles line by line and precept by precepts. If you don't have any foundation knowledge, how can any unbeliever understand more advanced topics? It would be like someone trying to take advanced engineering classes without understanding basic math.

I don't even understand why a non-believer would even spend any time on a Debating Christianity forum at all especial in the TD&D subforum.

So my question is 'What is your point in posting in TD&D?'