There have been several threads on this subforum about whether sex outside of marriage is permissible. There is a Biblical teaching that is often overlooked in discussing this subject.
First look at the first teaching on marriage:
Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
(Genesis 2:24 ESV)
Then look at how Paul interprets this verse:
Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.�
(1 Corinthians 6:16 ESV)
It is the sexual act that creates the marriage relationship. When a man and woman engage is sex without being married to each other they become one in God's sight. If either of them engages in sex with another person he is guilty of adultery. That is why a couple can't first live together to see if marriage is right for them. They incur all the responsibilities of marriage the first time they have sex and if they find they aren't compatible it is too late to do anything about it.
Sex outside of marriage
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Sex outside of marriage
Post #1His invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.
Romans 1:20 ESV
Romans 1:20 ESV
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Re: Sex outside of marriage
Post #11It may not be the main thing in a relationship, but I think you down play it's importance. If a partner is not satisfied in the bedroom, their human nature will drive them to find that satisfaction somewhere else.Wootah wrote: [Replying to post 3 by OnceConvinced]
There are other threads that have answered this point. If the purpose was really to test the relationship then sex would not be one of the best ways. It mostly provides a false positive because even bad sex between consenting partners is still good.The problem is there is no way for anyone to truly get to know each other first in this situation. It means that whenever you have sex you are forced to take a huge gamble and remain with them, never having sex with anyone else. Too bad if she ends up being sexually incompatible!
To just flag it away as unimportant is a huge mistake as I found out in my marriage.
Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.
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Re: Sex outside of marriage
Post #12So unlawful sex (fornication) is having sex with ....??Yahu wrote:
Fornication is by definition 'unlawful sexual intercourse'. To be unlawful, you have to go to the Torah and see what was unlawful.
(I'm sorry your answer wasn't very clear, it outlined a lot of things that it IS NOT. So can you clarify please what it IS... ? Can two concenting, committed, non-attached adults commit "fornication"? )
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
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Re: Sex outside of marriage
Post #13I just don't see the difference between lust and desire. Desire is more general for sure but lust is the desire of someone or thing for sexual gratification. Desire is interchangeable with lust.Yahu wrote:I think you are confusing desire with lust. I can see a desirable married woman without lusting after her. I wouldn't even consider pursuing a married woman. I have been on the other end of that. My wife was the most beautiful woman I ever met. She had men stalking her because of her beauty. There are men that will be in prison for the rest of their lives for the things they did to sabotage our marriage just so they could have their turn with her. When we first started courting/dating, we had men following us on all our dates. It turned out there was a sign up list at the base gym for who got to date her next and I wasn't on their list. Some of them even sabotaged a military aircraft to strand my wife on a TDY deployment so they could drug her with a date rape drug. They were convicted of treason on top of the drug and rape charges. All because they LUSTED after my wife.Wootah wrote: [Replying to post 4 by Yahu]
Well Jesus says
If one grants that lust comes before sex (and if you end up having to argue that point I'm fine with that) then adultery has been committed.Matthew 5:27-28New International Version (NIV)
Adultery
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[a] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
That is what it means to look at a woman with lust in your heart. Lust is desire on steroids with a drive to do evil to fulfill that desire.
Lust has no place in a marriage. A wife is desired, not lusted after.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
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Re: Sex outside of marriage
Post #14[Replying to post 12 by Wootah]
Lust is unlawful desire for someone who does not belong to you, is not yours to have and to hold. It is thus akin to coveting.
On this I agree with Yahu:I just don't see the difference between lust and desire. Desire is more general for sure but lust is the desire of someone or thing for sexual gratification. Desire is interchangeable with lust.
Lust has no place between marriage partners because she is his and he is hers. They belong together, so what they have for each other is desire, not lust.Lust has no place in a marriage. A wife is desired, not lusted after.
Lust is unlawful desire for someone who does not belong to you, is not yours to have and to hold. It is thus akin to coveting.
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Re: Sex outside of marriage
Post #15Be careful you aren't simply defining lust as being impossible for married partners.Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 12 by Wootah]
On this I agree with Yahu:I just don't see the difference between lust and desire. Desire is more general for sure but lust is the desire of someone or thing for sexual gratification. Desire is interchangeable with lust.
Lust has no place between marriage partners because she is his and he is hers. They belong together, so what they have for each other is desire, not lust.Lust has no place in a marriage. A wife is desired, not lusted after.
Lust is unlawful desire for someone who does not belong to you, is not yours to have and to hold. It is thus akin to coveting.
Can you demonstrate a practical difference within marriage to explain how the words differ?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
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Re: Sex outside of marriage
Post #16[Replying to post 14 by Wootah]
http://sexwithinmarriage.com/is-it-a-si ... your-wife/
http://www.the-generous-husband.com/201 ... -want-you/
http://www.acts17-11.com/dialogs_sex_marriage.html
These links seem to convey what I was trying to say, and are perhaps more accurate than my brief foray.Be careful you aren't simply defining lust as being impossible for married partners.
Can you demonstrate a practical difference within marriage to explain how the words differ?
http://sexwithinmarriage.com/is-it-a-si ... your-wife/
http://www.the-generous-husband.com/201 ... -want-you/
http://www.acts17-11.com/dialogs_sex_marriage.html
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Re: Sex outside of marriage
Post #17The first two links say lust is OK within marriage.Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 14 by Wootah]
These links seem to convey what I was trying to say, and are perhaps more accurate than my brief foray.Be careful you aren't simply defining lust as being impossible for married partners.
Can you demonstrate a practical difference within marriage to explain how the words differ?
http://sexwithinmarriage.com/is-it-a-si ... your-wife/
http://www.the-generous-husband.com/201 ... -want-you/
http://www.acts17-11.com/dialogs_sex_marriage.html
Eg: Lusting after your spouse is not just allowed, it is expected. - See more at: http://www.the-generous-husband.com/201 ... you/#.dpuf
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
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Re: Sex outside of marriage
Post #18[Replying to post 16 by Wootah]
As I said in my earlier post...
Strong's Concordance
epithumia: desire, passionate longing, lust
Original Word: �πιθυμία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: epithumia
Phonetic Spelling: (ep-ee-thoo-mee'-ah)
Definition: desire, eagerness for, inordinate desire, lust.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 1939 epithymÃa (from 1909 /epÃ, "focused on" and 2372 /thymós, "passionate desire") – properly, passion built on strong feelings (urges).
These can be positive or negative, depending on whether the desire is inspired by faith (God's inbirthed persuasion). See 1937 (epithyme�).
It seems so, I stand corrected, in that I had not realised that lust can either be positive or negative, it is not always sinful.The first two links say lust is OK within marriage.
Eg: Lusting after your spouse is not just allowed, it is expected.
As I said in my earlier post...
These links seem to convey what I was trying to say, and are perhaps more accurate than my brief foray.
Strong's Concordance
epithumia: desire, passionate longing, lust
Original Word: �πιθυμία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: epithumia
Phonetic Spelling: (ep-ee-thoo-mee'-ah)
Definition: desire, eagerness for, inordinate desire, lust.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 1939 epithymÃa (from 1909 /epÃ, "focused on" and 2372 /thymós, "passionate desire") – properly, passion built on strong feelings (urges).
These can be positive or negative, depending on whether the desire is inspired by faith (God's inbirthed persuasion). See 1937 (epithyme�).
Re: Sex outside of marriage
Post #19False. men were allowed multiple wives and concubines. Adultery has to do with the status of the woman belonging to another man as betrothed or married to another.puddleglum wrote: It is the sexual act that creates the marriage relationship. When a man and woman engage is sex without being married to each other they become one in God's sight. If either of them engages in sex with another person he is guilty of adultery.
It isn't just becoming one in Yah's sight when you engage in intercourse. It is a spiritual joining. You are spiritually bonded with anyone you ever have sex with and they are bonded with everyone they have ever had sex with. That is why it is dangerous to have sex with a prostitute. Spiritual forces can travel between people on those bonds.
Re: Sex outside of marriage
Post #20Obviously they don't understand the difference between lust and desire. Lust is always evil. Desire is what you have for a wife. Lust is a strong desire for something wrong. Lust for riches is greed.Wootah wrote: The first two links say lust is OK within marriage.
Eg: Lusting after your spouse is not just allowed, it is expected. - See more at: http://www.the-generous-husband.com/201 ... you/#.dpuf
Lust is taking desire to evil extremes to drive you to do evil. It is lust that drives men to rape, not desire. You can desire an attractive women without being driven to rape or fantasies of rape.
Lust is about satisfying your own needs while desire for a wife also includes wanting to satisfy her needs out of love for her.