Why won't God convince atheists?

[Hatuey]

Many atheists are so for valid and defendable reasons. Why would a punishing deity choose not to make himself known to reasonable people who do not believe he exists?

A decent god would know how to convince decent people to believe and care for him as he cared for those decent people.

What sort of god doesn't care to convince sensible people that he exists?

[marco]

Why wont atheists just face the facts and abandon the silly notion that the entire universe appeared from nothing and that man is the result of a series of cosmic belches and that he produced religions to explain it all?

It is a very foolish atheist who thinks along these lines. There is no requirement on Joe Average to invent a reason for his existence. We appear and we vanish. Ancient people didn't manage to depose the Sun God but modern tribes did. We have perhaps a long way to go before we can depose our more sophisticated version, who serves the same need.

[OnceConvinced]

Why won't Christians just face the facts and abandon their silly notion about a God?

Why wont atheists just face the facts and abandon the silly notion that the entire universe appeared from nothing

Which atheists are those?

There are many atheists who DON'T believe that the universe appeared from nothing. I'm one such atheist.

However ironically religious folk believe that a supernatural all powerful being came from nothing.

and that man is the result of a series of cosmic belches

Once again, this is not necessarily an Atheist belief. I for one believe we are here as an inevitable outcome of million years of evolution. It wasn't just by some incredible coincidence. It couldn't have turned out any other way. It was "destiny" for want of a better word.

and that he produced religions to explain it all?

How is it a silly notion to believe that men make up religions to explain our existance? People have to make sense of it somehow and if they don't have science...

Don't you agree that most religious are made up by men? Heck, just look at Scientology!

[liamconnor]

Many atheists are so for valid and defendable reasons. Why would a punishing deity choose not to make himself known to reasonable people who do not believe he exists?

A decent god would know how to convince decent people to believe and care for him as he cared for those decent people.

What sort of god doesn't care to convince sensible people that he exists?

I asked this question before but perhaps it needed explaining:

The question, "Why won't Christians be reasonable and accept the obvious that God doesn't exist?"

One person's answer boiled down to, theyre being unreasonable. But of course, they would not say so. Everyone thinks they are being reasonable about their deepest convictions.

So, just as you could say "the evidence against God is plain and simple; you obviously aren't being reasonable" so the Christian could say "the evidence is all there for you bud, you just don't want to see it."

As everyone knows, characteristic of an unreasonable man is he can't be reasoned with.

[marco]

One person's answer boiled down to, they're being unreasonable. But of course, they would not say so. Everyone thinks they are being reasonable about their deepest convictions.
.............................
As everyone knows, characteristic of an unreasonable man is he can't be reasoned with.

It would be good if instead of hearing from these anonymous people, we heard what Liam thought and why.
Do you accept that both Christian and atheist can be extremely clever and can present well-considered arguments?
The world, thankfully, isn't entirely populated by people who grunt excuses for their superstitions or their prejudices. Perhaps you've been running around with the wrong types.

[JLB32168]

There are many atheists who DON'T believe that the universe appeared from nothing. I'm one such atheist.

Do you believe that matter and energy are eternal? If so, youre not alone. Not a few brilliant scientists feel the same way. If brilliant wo/men who are scientists and atheists believe that something can always have existed then it would seem that the idea that an uncreated, personal, entity isnt as outlandish as some suggest.

Once again, this is not necessarily an Atheist belief [and that man is the result of a series of cosmic belches].

But it is a rather crude summary of normative atheist secularist belief.

How is it a silly notion to believe that men make up religions to explain our existance? People have to make sense of it somehow and if they don't have science.

Again, I am an evolutionist. Evolution selects against things that arent beneficial to the propagation of the species. For what reason did religions arise and spread? What evolutionary benefit did they accomplish?
I believe that all religions are the creations of supernatural entities " one of an uncreated deity and the others by that deitys enemies.

[Willum]

[Replying to JLB32168]

Do you believe that matter and energy are eternal? If so, youre not alone. Not a few brilliant scientists feel the same way. If brilliant wo/men who are scientists and atheists believe that something can always have existed then it would seem that the idea that an uncreated, personal, entity isnt as outlandish as some suggest.

Well you seem to be taking an argument and turning it on it's ear.

Let me simplify:
If things always exist, there is no need for them to be created.
PERIOD.

Matter and energy, more specifically elements, are only transformed, never created.

Here this helped others:
Imagine a molecule of hydrogen untouched by anything. It does not change, has not changed and will not change.

Going back in time it observes formations of planets, suns, neutron stars black holes. It sees elements breakdown from heavier to lighter and then the rest of the Universe collapse with similar events.
Hydrogen collapses into a central point that would become the Big Bang. It watches Hydrogen fuse into neutrons; electrons compressed into nuclei. It watches a massive black hole form, and endures long before that Big Bang happens.

There is no astrophysicist that can say this didn't happen. Dark Matter is rather alien, and probably composed at least in part of hydrogen.

There is no need for a creator. Everything is was and always will be, but changed.

[JLB32168]

Let me simplify: If things always exist, there is no need for them to be created.

I agree. If God always existed then there is no need for Him to be created " contrasted with the skeptic/atheist argument that If God created everything, then who or what caused God since it makes no sense that God could create but be uncreated.

[Willum]

[Replying to JLB32168]

Hi, everything already existed:
There is no need for a god to create it.

Indeed, even if there is a God, there is no need for him to exist much earlier than the Earth was created.

So anything could have created him before that. You have no basis for God creating the Universe.

Or perhaps you do:
?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 652 by JLB32168]

Let me simplify: If things always exist, there is no need for them to be created.

I agree. If God always existed then there is no need for Him to be created " contrasted with the skeptic/atheist argument that If God created everything, then who or what caused God since it makes no sense that God could create but be uncreated.

If God always existed. ... interesting hypothesis.

As is your depiction of an "skeptic/atheist" argument. Hypothetical, not factual. Make a bad case so that it's easily knocked down? That's called making a straw man argument.

Never very convincing. How about dealing with ACTUAL arguments from "skeptic/atheists", instead of fabricating one?

Shoot holes in this argument, I know it isn't perfect:

1. If things always existed, they were NOT created.
2. If God always existed, it was NOT created.
3. Do we know if things or God always existed?
4. I say NO, we don't know anything of the sort.
5. So, what does premise 1 and 2 demonstrate? ... Nothing at all except that they could not have been created. One ( 1 ) presupposes things, the other, ( 2 ) things AND a creator god.

Conclusion:

6. Therefore, it's more parsimonious to believe premise 1 than premise 2 as premise 2 requires MORE belief than premise 1.

[catnip]

[Replying to post 652 by JLB32168]

Let me simplify: If things always exist, there is no need for them to be created.

I agree. If God always existed then there is no need for Him to be created " contrasted with the skeptic/atheist argument that If God created everything, then who or what caused God since it makes no sense that God could create but be uncreated.

If God always existed. ... interesting hypothesis.

As is your depiction of an "skeptic/atheist" argument. Hypothetical, not factual. Make a bad case so that it's easily knocked down? That's called making a straw man argument.

Never very convincing. How about dealing with ACTUAL arguments from "skeptic/atheists", instead of fabricating one?

Shoot holes in this argument, I know it isn't perfect:

1. If things always existed, they were NOT created.
2. If God always existed, it was NOT created.
3. Do we know if things or God always existed?
4. I say NO, we don't know anything of the sort.
5. So, what does premise 1 and 2 demonstrate? ... Nothing at all except that they could not have been created. One ( 1 ) presupposes things, the other, ( 2 ) things AND a creator god.

Conclusion:

6. Therefore, it's more parsimonious to believe premise 1 than premise 2 as premise 2 requires MORE belief than premise 1.

There is a great deal we don't know about the Universe. And there is a great deal we have learned already but we are still working on it.

Certainly things have been created because they do exist. Even if we speak of the Universe, we have evidence of the creation of suns (stars), of planets, of galaxies.

The question is: When did it all begin? When it all ends, will there be nothing left? When? It is like thinking that the world ends on the other side of the wall--that there is nothing out there. But there is. It is infinite and it is eternal, with no beginning and with no end--because there is always something beyond it.

No, we don't know anything of the sort--but we have perceptions of something and we, some of us, call it God. Others may call it something else.