We have accounts from 2000 years ago

[Zzyzx]

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We have accounts from 2000 years ago which may or may not be true and accurate. We have no way to determine whether they are true in total, true in part, untrue in total.

Shall we base life decisions on those accounts? Why or why not?

[Clownboat]

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Are you saying that we can learn nothing from the ancients?

Few would say that we can learn NOTHING from ancients. However, most recognize that modern knowledge far surpasses that of ancients, that ancients were prone to propose supernatural “explanations� for what they did not understand, that ancients often mixed fact and fantasy, and that ancients often had incorrect notions about cause-and-effect relationships.

Would any rational person recommend basing anyone's learning about the Earth, the environment, astronomy, navigation, engineering, medicine, laws, cultural practices, etc from ancients?

What makes anyone think that ancients provided any more accurate information about gods than they did about causes of diseases, droughts and storms, or about the Earth?

As with all information, one needs to recognize the intended purpose. My personal knowledge surpasses yours in many ways, ie. detail of my personal life and community. However, I do not reject your views as a basis for certain decisions. Do I base my learning about the Earth, the environment, astronomy, navigation, engineering, medicine entirely on ancient accounts? Of course not. Do I incorporate my knowledge of ancient accounts in my views on laws, cultural practices, etc. ? Yes, I do. What makes me believe that ancient information regarding deities is accurate? To the extent that it applies, the same thing that causes me to believe what causes diseases, droughts and storms, or about the Earth? Best guess based on all available information, including ancient accounts. Do modern methods tell us all the causes of diseases, droughts and storms, or about the Earth? No, if they did there wouldn't be pleas from government and private organization seeking further funding. Do the things modern methods propose as causes of diseases, droughts and storms always dictate the actual causes in specific cases? No, wise doctors and predictors of weather look at various sources of information and apply them to specific situations with varying degrees of certainty. That said, the social "sciences" are even more uncertain than medicine and weather, so such things as laws and cultural practices are even more dependent on judgment.

To answer your question, I think one should base their life decisions on all the available data and information that they can get their hands on.

Good, me to, and that includes ancient accounts, even if they can not be verified as historically accurate.

I would add a qualification: “base decisions on accurate, verifiable information from multiple disconnected sources�.

What is the motivation for seeking learning from accounts that cannot be shown to be truthful, accurate, and applicable to current life?

Are there any more conditions you would like to add? I have no doubt that one can come up with a scenario that excludes everything one does not wish to take into account. That said, as I eluded to before, things such as truthfulness, accuracy and applicability to current life are often judgment calls based in the specific purpose. So, the motivation of seeking learning from ancient accounts, like the seeking of all learning, is to determine truthfulness, accuracy and applicability to current life. If you see none there, then I guess there is no value to you, apart from support for your view that no value exists. However, to those of us who do see such things there, there is great value. It is the nature of value is that it is determined by the consumer, not the observer.

Can you provide an example of another ancient book that you use for learning about our world and how exactly you used it and to what effect?

I'm trying to rule out a case of special pleading here for the Bible.

For example the Vedas are older than the Bible, therefore I assume you learn more or just as much about our world from them as you do the Bible. If you don't use the Vedas or the Qu'ran to learn about our world, perhaps you should ask yourself 'why' and see if the answers apply to the Bible?

[1213]

That's an interesting idea. In the Bible God tells Abraham to murder his son.

I don’t think Bible uses word murder in that.

...God killed Lot's wife and all she did was look back. It is hard to explain how curiosity deserves death. And of course we have numerous commands from God ordering the killing of various people. WITHOUT the Bible we are in no doubt that killing is bad; WITH the Bible it would seem it is good in quite a few circumstances.

God has given life, so I think he has every right to decide how long life it will be. Therefore God is never murder, if he just doesn’t give eternal life for all.

And actually, in Biblical point of view, the reason for death is unrighteousness. That is more than one single small action. It is the source of all actions. And if the source is bad, then the actions are eventually also bad. If person is unrighteous, he does unrighteous actions. If person is righteous, he does righteous actions.

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

[Clownboat]

What things do you understand to be wrong, due to the Bible?

It is not just about telling what is wrong, but about helping to understand why something is wrong and that I meant with, helps me to understand. For example Bible shows why murder is wrong, not just that it is wrong.

It depresses me to learn that you needed the Bible to tell you why murder is wrong.
For the sake of humanity, please do not ever lose your beliefs. We don't need more murderers. I could explain why, but I'm not the Bible.

I hear these words and what saddens me the most is that we have atheists that know why murder is wrong. Thank goodness you found a religious holy book to tell you why we should not murder. It's sad IMO, but I am thankful.

You really wouldn't know why you shouldn't murder your next door neighbor without the Bible? Like, for real, real? If you lost your beliefs, do you think you would be a danger to society?

[1213]

I hear these words and what saddens me the most is that we have atheists that know why murder is wrong.

I would like to hear why you think murder is wrong.

You really wouldn't know why you shouldn't murder your next door neighbor without the Bible? Like, for real, real? If you lost your beliefs, do you think you would be a danger to society?

Belief has nothing to do with it. It is about understanding, and as long as I have this understanding, I don’t murder.

[marco]

That's an interesting idea. In the Bible God tells Abraham to murder his son.

I don’t think Bible uses word murder in that.

No, it wouldn't. But killing your boy is murder nonetheless.

God has given life, so I think he has every right to decide how long life it will be. Therefore God is never murder, if he just doesn’t give eternal life for all.

I appreciate that when we place ourselves under the arbitrary dictates of an almighty being we have no right to complain. We just live in hope that we won't fall foul of his blow. Where does LOVE come into this? Or does it?

He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

It is strange that Lot's wife could make one mistake and be obliterated while the devil, as you say, has been sinning rom the beginning with impunity. And if the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil he hasn't done too well. Sin continues, and presumably the devil does too. Surely the easiest way of destroying the works of the devil would have been to destroy the devil. A problem?

[Clownboat]

I hear these words and what saddens me the most is that we have atheists that know why murder is wrong.

I would like to hear why you think murder is wrong.

You really wouldn't know why you shouldn't murder your next door neighbor without the Bible? Like, for real, real? If you lost your beliefs, do you think you would be a danger to society?

Belief has nothing to do with it. It is about understanding, and as long as I have this understanding, I don’t murder.

You ignored every question I posed to you and you now want to ask me questions? How honorable.
I know murder is wrong because I would like to not be murdered.

I must assume you wouldn't understand why we shouldn't rape children either without your Bible? Is this also correct or does the Bible only help when it comes to murder?

Again, if you cannot determine why murder is wrong without your Bible, I beg you to never lose your beliefs. Please do not project your lack of understanding on the rest of us though.

[Kenisaw]

[Replying to post 71 by Kenisaw]

Interesting post, so in the light of the above, how can one make the statement that accepting A when it comes to scripture MUST mean one accepts B when there are such a wide range of interprétations possible. Which was my point.

It was your point, and your point is that there is no logical way to take the bible without being in conflict with simple common sense. Which means no matter what the entire thing is utter nonsense and should be ignored. I'm glad you agreed.

[Kenisaw]

I don't see any Biblical dogma in that and I have not attempted to defend any. I have merely shown, by example, that much of our society is dependent on basing life decisions on accounts from 2000 years ago which may or may not be true and accurate. Let me ask you, on what should one base one's life decisions?

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I know you haven't attempted to defend any, which was the point.

You haven't shown that much of our society is basing life decisions on accounts from 2000 years ago. You've mentioned 2300 years ago, or 2400 years ago, but nothing from 2000 years ago. But if you want to stray from the OP, that is of couer your choice.

Nice attempt at irony. However, I did refer to Seneca and Tacitus. Also, in my initial post, I referred to the discussions of democracy, republic, diplomacy, warfare, idealism, and pragmatism, just to name a few. Are you saying that we can learn nothing from the ancients? If so, why are our tax dollars spent on teaching them? I probably shouldn't have asked that. There are plenty of people who are already calling for us to jettison the classics, for text messages and video games.

To answer your question, I think one should base their life decisions on all the available data and information that they can get their hands on.

Good, me to, and that includes ancient accounts, even if they can not be verified as historically accurate.

Apparently you don't know what irony is. Maybe you meant to lookup accuracy and got lost.

We can learn plenty from the ancients. But you discussed ancients that didn't fall within the OP. Perhaps you need to start a new thread if you want to add additional time frames. Let is know what you want to do.

The classics are still good to teach. You know - real people that actually existed and came up with actual useful ideas for humanity. Imagine that...

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 71 by Kenisaw]

Interesting post, so in the light of the above, how can one make the statement that accepting A when it comes to scripture MUST mean one accepts B when there are such a wide range of interprétations possible. Which was my point.

It was your point, and your point is that there is no logical way to take the bible without being in conflict with simple common sense. Which means no matter what the entire thing is utter nonsense and should be ignored. I'm glad you agreed.

I made that point did I? That sounds most unlike me, perhaps you can produce the post where I made that point and I can read and re-phrase it if need be - after all, everyone has days when they are off their game... but I'd need to see it for myself though, I'd hate to think you are presenting me with a strawman.


JW

[1213]

No, it wouldn't. But killing your boy is murder nonetheless.

If there is just reason, it is not murder, like for example in case of death penalty. Murder is unlawful killing.

I appreciate that when we place ourselves under the arbitrary dictates of an almighty being we have no right to complain. We just live in hope that we won't fall foul of his blow. Where does LOVE come into this? Or does it?

I believe love comes in for example that God judges righteously, and don’t execute evil judgments.

It is strange that Lot's wife could make one mistake and be obliterated while the devil, as you say, has been sinning from the beginning with impunity. And if the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil he hasn't done too well. Sin continues, and presumably the devil does too. Surely the easiest way of destroying the works of the devil would have been to destroy the devil. A problem?

Devils work was that we were expelled from Eden and separated from God. Jesus came to restore that connection for those who want to receive it and so the works of devil were destroyed.

But obviously it has not yet been time to obliterate devil, because now is still time for “wheat� to grow.

But when the blade sprang up and brought forth fruit, then the darnel appeared also. The servants of the householder came and said to him, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where did this darnel come from?' "He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' "The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and gather them up?' "But he said, 'No, lest perhaps while you gather up the darnel, you root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest time I will tell the reapers, "First, gather up the darnel, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"
Matt. 13:26-30