Prove the claim..

[Elijah John]

Challenges for debate:

First you may need to prove that the Bible is inerrant, without scientific error or other contradicition. please do this without resorting to circular reasoning.

Then prove that the Bible actually claims that Jesus is God with the same clarity as the Bible states that "YHVH is God". (Isaiah 45.5)

OR demonstrate in some other reasonable way that "Jesus is God".

If you cannot do this, then why do so many Christians persist in claiming others are hell-bound for NOT believing that "Jesus is God"?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 27 by onewithhim]

I posted to you:

I have not read all your posts, but I don't recall any others I have read that differ at all from JW teaching.

So where do you stand with them, onewithhim?

You answered:

I believe everything they teach. No one has said outright, "Every WORD is from God," to my recollection, so there may be differing thoughts on that, but, anyway, it is not something that is perilous to one's faith.

Are any of these three things dangerous to my spiritual health? Or my salvation? I don't think so. I view Jehovah God as loving and merciful, and I believe his Son will soon reign over the earth, resolving all problems for mankind. This is what preaching the Kingdom is all about (Matt.24:14)

.


Thanks for that.

What kind of things, then, in this context, would be "perilous to your faith" or "dangerous to your spiritual health"?

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 24 by ttruscott]

A confusing viewpoint. If people were chosen before they were born, God would be showing himself to be a big game-player....a charade artist. He tells everyone that they must CHOOSE who they want to worship, and yet you say some were already "elected" to be saved? I don't think so.

Your are disagreeing with yourself as you do not present what I believe at all. Yes, HE tells everyone to choose and AFTER they have all separated themselves into two groups by faith, that is, those who by their free will put their faith in HIS claims to be our creator GOD and in HIS promise of salvation from all future sin were separated from all those who by their free will put their faith in the idea that he was a false god and a liar, and as the first liar he was the Father of lies and creator of sin.

Since this whole event was started to find those in HIS creation who were willing to share a heavenly (perfectly holy and loving) marriage with HIM, once everyone had chose HE elected, that is chose, all those who put their faith in HIM as their GOD to be HIS bride in heaven. Thus the choice came first contrary to your assertion and then election. . THEN the earth was created. I took the long way to get here so it might prove more logical to you and therefore more memorable.

The "foundation of the world" came into existence after Adam rebelled. The world" is the society of humans alienated from God. It is not the planet. Check out I John 2:15-17 to understand what "world" we're talking about when the subject comes up about being chosen before the founding of the world.

Adam disobeyed, thus putting in motion the existence of the world of sinful, alienated humans, starting with Cain. Between the time of Adam's rebellion and the life-course of Cain, that is when God "chose" the co-rulers of Christ. But it was only the GROUP'S existence that God foreordained, not any individuals.

I cannot answer this in this place - it is just too far out.

Oh it's you. I didn't notice, the lack of logic did not twig. Sorry to waste our time. I'll leave it for anyone looking for insight into PCEC.

[a better world]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

hello

[a better world]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

-<<<YHVH is LORD>>>

If I may, I would like to address this position.

As you are aware, many people reject this position out of hand because of YHVH's authorisation of genocide (including babies), finding this simply intolerable ethically.
Also the periodic rage against mankind: destroying all creatures except
those able to be accommodated on the ark; threatening to destroy the Israelites for no more than fashioning a golden calf to relieve their boredom in the desert and express their (innate) desire for worship. Moses had to intercede on their behalf, pointing out that YHVH would look silly in the eyes of the Egyptians if He lead them out only to destroy them in the desert; condemning men for their pride in building a tower (ie, displaying their God-given architectural and engineering gifts) by scattering them over the face of the earth and confounding their speech so that they cannot understand one another; and even at the very beginning, showing lack of fatherly sensitivity and awareness by expressing a preference for Abel's occupation over Cain's, resulting in the first murder.

Obviously, from an empirical, post-enlightenment viewpoint, YWVH is most assuredly a man-made, bronze-age god.

How then did YHVH survive into modern times?

1. Darius allowed the Jews to return and rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.
2. Alexander, a student of Aristotle, took no interest in local Gods when he conquered the Persian empire, allowing the Jews to maintain their religion into Roman times.
3. Early Christians - who were Jews - needed OT prophesy to bolster their claim of Christ's divinity, so they simply added their newly evolving N.T. to the O.T. Ironically, most Jews rejected this position.
4. Constantine adopted Christianity as the empire's official religion, thus ensuring YWVH's survival through association with the new world religion - not a religion for Jews alone - which has survived to the present day.
-------
An urgent task for theologians today is to recognise that scripture, especially that of the three "peoples of the Book" is not the Word of God, but the word of men searching for God.

The OT is incompatible with the UN Declaration of Human Rights. Claims of a "chosen people" and divinely sanctioned right to territiory are illegal under modern international law (nascent as this law is, with war between nations not yet formally declared illegal).

I'll close with my (evolving) theological position (as counterbalance to YHVH):

An eternal, joyful, loving consciousness, not made of the matter and energy of this world, yet 'infusing' this world, and existing before the 'big bang' ; perhaps experimenting to see which physicals laws in any number of universes most successfully realise awareness of itself.

Anyway, I note the inspiration that your positive dedication to and reverence for YHVH engenders in yourself. Now, if all mankind can experience the joy of this reverence....

[Elijah John]

I think there are many, if not most, JWs who believe the Bible is inerrant concerning every word. I am not one of them, but I don't consider this a terrible evil. I have seen errors and even contradictions, but it doesn't bother me. I feel that the Bible was inspired by God, definitely, but anything put in the hands of men will get a bit off at some point. All of the gore and violence in the OT is attributed to Jehovah, but I feel that probably a good deal of it was embellished by the writers. I think even Moses was more bloodthirsty than God Himself, and can be seen in his narratives. Yet....I believe that the main theme of the Bible is there, running throughout the canon. It can always be tied in with the Kingdom arrangement, every single book. Also, the scriptures never vary about the identity of God and his requirements for humans.

Not sure how I missed this earlier...

Very well put, and a refreshing admission and approach. Although we may differ on some of the details, and on some particular matters of theology, even on some important matter...your approach to the Bible is very similar to my own.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 27 by onewithhim]


Onewithhim,

YOUR QUOTE: "Adam disobeyed, thus putting in motion the existence of the world of sinful, alienated humans, starting with Cain. Between the time of Adam's rebellion and the life-course of Cain, that is when God "chose" the co-rulers of Christ. But it was only the GROUP'S existence that God foreordained, not any individuals".

Seriously, I hate to correct you again, but for the sake of true knowledge to your faith, I must. It was NOT Adam that transgressed as you mistakenly said, it was Eve, remember?

But didn't the bible say...

ROMANS 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned - KJV


JW

[ttruscott]

But didn't the bible say...

ROMANS 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned - KJV
JW

1. Sin entering the world.
Did not the serpent enter the garden with evil intent and therefore supposedly the world before they ate? And did not Eve commune with this evil serpent as a friend or even a mentor, discussing questions of life and death and such communion is idolatry? And did not Eve sinfully eat first and then evily entice Adam?

How then can it be said that sin entered the word with Adam, the third to sin, UNLESS Adam was a sinner by his own free will before the earth and garden were created and brought his sinfulness with him when he was sown not created into the world and put into his new human body as Christ says is the case in Matt 13:38-39?

2. Original sin.
Original sin usually refers to our inheriting Adam's sin to fulfill the words that we are sinners at conception and birth based upon this verse. But this verse clearly says it is death that came with his sin that passed to every man (sinner), that is, all sinners sown into the earth are sown under the condemnation of death upon Adam for the purpose that Christ's one death for sin would cover every sinful elect in Adam and Christ would not have to die once for each one of us.

It has been the theology of being born a sinner that has twisted the plain reading of these words, and not these words which forced the direction of the theology because they did not have the concept of our pre-conception existence and our fall by free will to understand these verses.

[JehovahsWitness]

Adam was a sinner by his own free will before the earth and garden were created

How could Adam have been a sinner before the earth was created when he was "made out of the dust of the earth"?

JW

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 27 by onewithhim]


Onewithhim,

YOUR QUOTE: "Adam disobeyed, thus putting in motion the existence of the world of sinful, alienated humans, starting with Cain. Between the time of Adam's rebellion and the life-course of Cain, that is when God "chose" the co-rulers of Christ. But it was only the GROUP'S existence that God foreordained, not any individuals".

Seriously, I hate to correct you again, but for the sake of true knowledge to your faith, I must. It was NOT Adam that transgressed as you mistakenly said, it was Eve, remember?

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. (1 Timothy 2:14)

Eve ate the forbidden fruit first, and understood good from evil, then she gave the fruit to Adam, who did not know from good or evil yet, then when he ate the fruit, he realized what he did, as Eve was the impetus of Adam being wrong after her.

Since Eve deceived Adam, she became the transgressor and not Adam, as shown in 1Timothy 2:14, and to prove this point, Yahweh god decided the following circumstances for her as punishment, which seems reasonable: "To the woman he said, "I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." (Genesis 3:16)

As youre aware, the passage above is the impetus of women being second-class citizens within the bible.

They BOTH transgressed, TFCI. Eve believed Satan, and then Adam took the fruit even though he knew that Satan lied. The scriptures indicate that Adam rebelled deliberately, and he bears the responsibility because of the headship arrangement; he should have chastened Eve but did not. As you quoted:

"Adam was formed first, then Eve. Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived." (I Timothy 2:13,14)

You seem to think that they didn't know right from wrong, but we believe that a Creator would not put his creations on Earth without telling them what they should do or not do. That is ridiculous. They both knew what would be detrimental to them, and they, in fact, were warned strongly by Jehovah about not touching the one tree.

Women are not second-class citizens in the Bible. You decipher scriptures through eyes of dislike for God. Eve was made as a compliment of Adam, not a lesser person. They each had unique qualities that made a union advantageous. I don't see anywhere in the Bible that shows women to be inferior.


[/i]

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 27 by onewithhim]

I posted to you:

I have not read all your posts, but I don't recall any others I have read that differ at all from JW teaching.

So where do you stand with them, onewithhim?

You answered:

I believe everything they teach. No one has said outright, "Every WORD is from God," to my recollection, so there may be differing thoughts on that, but, anyway, it is not something that is perilous to one's faith.

Are any of these three things dangerous to my spiritual health? Or my salvation? I don't think so. I view Jehovah God as loving and merciful, and I believe his Son will soon reign over the earth, resolving all problems for mankind. This is what preaching the Kingdom is all about (Matt.24:14)

.


Thanks for that.

What kind of things, then, in this context, would be "perilous to your faith" or "dangerous to your spiritual health"?

Such as believing in the Trinity doctrine, believing in hell-fire, disagreeing about close association with people who don't like Jehovah, Not taking care of my children, and many more things that would directly go against what the Bible teaches.