What is the Logos?

[Checkpoint]

I am referring to John's first chapter, where he introduces a Greek philosophical concept called "the Logos" which is usually translated as "the Word".

Who really understands, who can explain, what John wrote in these verses?


1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing that exists came into being.


God is with God? What??

Just philosophical ideas? And if so, to convey what to his readers?

Two Gods?

[Yahu]

Sorry, I probably don't get what you are saying.

It helps to have an understanding of Hebrew and the paleo-hebrew roots. In English, our letters have no meaning other then a sound they make. Hebrew is different. Each letter has meaning and in how the letters combine determines the meaning of the word.

Lets look at the word 'El'. Many translate 'El' to mean 'god' but that is false. It CAN BE a reference to a 'god' but when you look at the paleo-hebrew it is the combination of 'strength' and 'authority' or what we would use as the word 'mighty'. When used alone it implies 'The mighty One' which CAN BE a reference to God but needs to be judged by its context. Even some places in scripture 'El' is translated as 'mighty' not as God.

The modern day Hebrew writing is from the Babylonian captivity time frame. The earlier paleo-hebrew was similar to Pheonician. It was closer to heiroglyphics. Each letter was a picture and had meaning. There is a entire layer of meaning in how the letters combine to clarify things in the Hebrew.

Another good word I like to use as an example is the word "Da'at" which is the Hebrew word for "knowledge". It is spelled Dalet, ayin, tav. It is the combination of pictures of 'doorway','eye', 'covenant' so knowledge is taking in scripture (covenant) through the doorway of the eye therefore the Hebrew meaning of "Knowledge" comes from 'reading scripture'. Now the letters also have alternate meanings and could be drawn differently to show the change in meaning. Ayin which is commonly means 'eye' can have alternate meaning like 'vagina' or 'spring/fountain'. It is any 'source of waters'. So an alternate meaning of the word for 'knowledge' or the verb 'to know' could be using the 'doorway of the vagina in covenant' to mean sexual relations with a wife. That is why scripture says 'Adam KNEW his wife and she conceived'. It is using an alternate meaning of one of the letters which changes the meaning of the word by the context. It is where we get our term of 'carnal knowledge' to imply sexual activity.

There is an entirely new level of knowledge presented in scripture by going back to the Paleo-hebrew.

IMO John was referring to the 'ET' in Gen 1:1 to those that understood. You loose so much of the meaning when translating into another language. Yeshua used parables to teach giving word pictures. Hebrew is the same way in how it is constructed from the combination of letters.

I recommend for beginners the book 'Hebrew Word Pictures' by Dr Frank Seekins.

[bluethread]

There are two philosophical takes on this. "The Stoic philosophers identified the term with the divine animating principle pervading the Universe. Under Hellenistic Judaism, Philo (c. 20 BC – AD 50) adopted the term into Jewish philosophy." (Wiki) Some have taken the Greek view and left it at that. However, It is my view that Philo adopted the term as a Greek stand-in for HaTorah, which has a similar connotation. The difference, which I think Yochannan is referring to here, is that HaTorah is the verbal representation of a living deity and not the ambiguous consciousness of the Greek Logos.

[Yahu]

Yeshua was present at the creation. He is the manifestation of the physical form of Elohyim and it was through Yeshua that all the heavens and earth came into being.

I see Yeshua as the physical body of the godhead, the Father as the soul of the godhead and the Holy Spirit as the communications between the soul and the body. Man is made in His image, three parts body/soul/spirit.

The Paleo-hebrew meaning of YHVH is 'arm/hand', 'behold', 'nail', 'behold', as in 'behold the nail [pierced] hand', it is also a reference to Yeshua.

No scripture teaches such... please share...


Paul

I beg to differ. It is clearly presented in scripture that creation was through Yeshua as the 'image of God'. Yeshua is a manifestation of the 'invisible God', the very first thing created was the physical body of Yeshua and all other creation was through Yeshua.

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,

So Yes, scripture does teach that. The subject of verse 14 is Yeshua. The 'image' and the 'firstborn' also make the subject of discussion as Yeshua. That makes the 'him' referenced Yeshua, not 'the invisible God' of the previous verse. The pronoun needs to match the subject of the context.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 13 by Yahu]

Yeshua is a manifestation of the 'invisible God', the very first thing created was the physical body of Yeshua and all other creation was through Yeshua.

In saying "the very first thing created was the physical body of Yeshua" are you referring to what took place prior to creation itself?

If so, where is that said in scripture?

[Yahu]

[Replying to post 13 by Yahu]

Yeshua is a manifestation of the 'invisible God', the very first thing created was the physical body of Yeshua and all other creation was through Yeshua.

In saying "the very first thing created was the physical body of Yeshua" are you referring to what took place prior to creation itself?

If so, where is that said in scripture?

I just gave you the reference. He is the 'firstborn' of creation.

Creation consisted of the creation of matter and time. The very first brought into form was Yeshua. Then Yeshua was the creator of all heaven and earth. Yeshua houses the mind of the Father but is the physical form of the Godhead.

Look at the complete passage.
Cor 1:
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Yeshua is the beginning. All creation of the heaven and earth was by Yeshua, not the Father. Yeshua is the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end.

Yeshua is Elohyim made flesh. That flesh, the firstborn of creature, was created at the very beginning of the creation process then the rest of creature was THROUGH Yeshua. The Elohyim created matter and put its being into that created form of a body.

Yeshua didn't come into existence in Mary's womb. He lowered Himself to come in the form of a mortal man. Manifestations of 'mine angel' in the OT is probably Yeshua's pre-mortal existence interacting with man. It was probably Yeshua that walked in Eden with Adam.

That is why there is NO WAY to the Father but by Yeshua.

Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

[Pierac]

Yeshua was present at the creation. He is the manifestation of the physical form of Elohyim and it was through Yeshua that all the heavens and earth came into being.

I see Yeshua as the physical body of the godhead, the Father as the soul of the godhead and the Holy Spirit as the communications between the soul and the body. Man is made in His image, three parts body/soul/spirit.

The Paleo-hebrew meaning of YHVH is 'arm/hand', 'behold', 'nail', 'behold', as in 'behold the nail [pierced] hand', it is also a reference to Yeshua.

No scripture teaches such... please share...


Paul

I beg to differ. It is clearly presented in scripture that creation was through Yeshua as the 'image of God'. Yeshua is a manifestation of the 'invisible God', the very first thing created was the physical body of Yeshua and all other creation was through Yeshua.

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,


So Yes, scripture does teach that. The subject of verse 14 is Yeshua. The 'image' and the 'firstborn' also make the subject of discussion as Yeshua. That makes the 'him' referenced Yeshua, not 'the invisible God' of the previous verse. The pronoun needs to match the subject of the context.

Again, your wrong...

Christ the Head of the New Creation

The various popular English translation are at odds as to whether the Son is "the first-born over all creation" (as in the NIV and NK JV), thus first in rank, or whether he is "the firstborn of all creation" (which reflects a literal translation of the genitive case, as in the KJV, RV and NASB), meaning first in time, which would refer to Christ being the first-created being of creation.

We evidently need the wider context to determine which nuance fits best. It is clear that Paul continues his line of thought in the next verse, as he uses the conjunction "for": "For in Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities- all things have been created through him and for him" (v.16). Jesus never claimed credit for the original Genesis creation of the heavens and the earth. He was in no doubt that the universe was God's handiwork.

Mat 19:4 He answered, "Have you not read that he (God) who created them from the beginning made them male and female,

Remember Jesus has a God "Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Peter 1:3). Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, (1Co 8:6)

Mar 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God (my Father) created until now, and never will be.

Back to your post...

Observe in Colossians 1 that "all things" created are not "the heavens and the earth" as per Genesis 1:1, but rather "all things in the heavens and [up]on the earth." These things are defined as "thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities." Evidently, Jesus has been given authority to restructure the arrangements of angels as well as being the agent for the creation of the body of Christ on earth, the Church.

This is the thought as we soon shall see in Hebrews 1 where the Angels are told to worship the Son. It is also the thought that Peter mentions in 1 Peter 3:21-22 where, after "the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who he is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to him," it is the new Messianic order that God has brought in through Christ the Son that is under discussion. Just before his ascension into heaven at the father's right hand of power, Jesus declares that "all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me" (Matt.28:18). His resurrection has Jesus with a new status, "far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come" (Eph.1:21).

All of this is to reiterate that this hymn of praise concerns the new order of things that now exist since the resurrection of the Son. An eschatological shift of the ages has begun with Christ's exaltation to the Father's right hand. God has "put all things in subjection under his [the resurrected Christ's] feet" (Eph. 1-22). Paul repeats this thought in the next chapter of Colossians: "and he is the head over [or of] all rule and authority" (Col 2:10). In the words we looked at in Philippians 2, God has rewarded Jesus' obedient death on the cross by highly exalting him, and bestowing on him "the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil 2:8-10).

It is highly significant that in verse 18 Jesus attains to a supreme position, meaning that he did not have it already. Thus he cannot have preexisted as God. If he did his final status would be more of a demotion than the promotion described by Paul.

Hope this helps,
Paul

[Yahu]

Again, your wrong...

Nope.

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

You stated that there was no scripture for my statement. I proved you wrong. There is scriptural backing for my statement.

I am not interested in your anti-trinity nonsense. Yeshua is YHVH.

[JehovahsWitness]

I am referring to John's first chapter, where he introduces a Greek philosophical concept called "the Logos" which is usually translated as "the Word".

Who really understands, who can explain, what John wrote in these verses?

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing that exists came into being.


God is with God? What??

Just philosophical ideas? And if so, to convey what to his readers?

Two Gods?

Two Gods ? Yes one YHWH All Mighty The Creator. One Yahwahs first Creation, his Son also called a God in scripture (god in scripture simply means "mighty one")

[Pierac]

Again, your wrong...

Nope.

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

You stated that there was no scripture for my statement. I proved you wrong. There is scriptural backing for my statement.

I am not interested in your anti-trinity nonsense. Yeshua is YHVH.

That's why Jesus is called (GOD's) chosen one... Jesus is God's Christ/Messiah... The anointed man that God used to perform His miracle's...

Do you believe this statement that... Jesus was a man attested to you by God with miracles which God performed through Him ?

Or do you think Jesus performed his own miracles?

BTY... I showed you using Jesus own words who formed creation... Mat 19:4 and Mark 13:19... I guess your not interested in Jesus' anti-trinity nonsense?

I'm cool with that...
BTY, you want me to correct another verse you missed used like you did with Colossians 1 ?
Paul

[pshun2404]

[Replying to post 18 by JehovahsWitness]

Isaiah 43:10

Many that are called "gods" but only ONE YHVH....who is the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. The one and only YHVH revealed Himself in three persona. Not one God, a god, and their impersonal force.