The adaptation of christianity in the new world

[Confused]

One of the greatest issues I have with most forms of organized religion is how their formats change based on current issues.

For example: stem cell research: All the christians I know say that they are against stem cell research because the cells are harvested from the tissue of aborted fetuses. So it isn't so much stem cell research they are opposed to it's, abortion. But in the same breath, they arent' against organ donation. Because a life isn't being taken to extend anothers. Herein lies the quandry: Abortion is legal and happens, the scientists aren't taking one life to exend anothers any more than they are with organ donation.

Another example, cloning cells. Where exactly is it that scripture says thou shall not replicate what I have created? The earliest thoughts I remember about religion and science was in grade school when my science teacher said that prayer alone won't heal, but god gives us a brain and the tools to heal for him.

Again, the new creation scientists: now it isn't that evolution doens't exist, its just that god created us and set into motion the ability for evolution to occur. Where in scripture can this be validated?

I know this is broad: so let me narrow it down to one central question- How is it that Christians can claim a stand for or against anything moral or ethical in todays world and use scripture as grounds for it? I am not talking about gay marriage, cheating on your spouse, etc etc. I am talking about things like using genetics to pick your childs color of eyes, or the use of condoms to protect against STD's even though they are a form of birth control.

Any insights??

[achilles12604]

Why would you expect the bible to spell out things which have little or nothing to do with slavation? This is a trap a lot of non-theists fall into. . .

No, it isn't a "trap". And I didn't even consider being a non-theist until about 5 years ago.

To say or imply that the "Bible" is so exclusively about "salvation" that other things (like human sexuality) are unimportant, is (I would think) a major contributor to many of the existing argument over/about religion (or Christianity) itself.

Point granted. I did imply that the bible was solely about salvation. It was not intentional. The point I was trying to get across was that the bible does not address scientific matters as well as daily life point by point. This was not the intention of the bible and so it should not be criticized on these matters.

Having said all that, Christianity has been "adapted" to the "times" (eras) in which believers live. Many (perhaps all) religions have done the same. As knowledge of things change, so do the belief systems within the societies which embrace them. And that is one reason why religious extremists DO want control over what is taught, and also control over the manner in which people are taught (even things they might approve of).

Granted to some extent. However, the teachings of the christianity as a whole have remained constant for many generations. Jesus died, rose and is the payment for our sins has not changed over the last thousand years. the parables havn't changed over the last thousand years. Really all that has changed is the viewpoint of religion on science. In this area, church history has a black eye, but not Christianity as a whole. After all Galilieo, Coppernecus (sp) and Darwin were all believers and they were the scientists who so enraged the church.

Christianity (certain aspects of it) has certainly morphed over time/space. The debates over what has actually changed and/or how significant those changes are do rage on amongst many human beings. And as much as I fought "science" before in my younger years (because it appeared to be a threat to my faith), I later began to understand the value of NOT thinking that "faith" is truly an answer to every question which seems "unanswerable". And while there are certainly other factors which can change the anatomy of certain belief systems, science (even unwittingly) can have (and likely has had) the most profound effect of all.

No real problem there. The christians who are stuck in the mud will be left behind. However, Christianity as a whole will not be left behind because as I pointed out, there are great christian scientists still firm in their beliefs.

[Goat]

I agree it's quiet a conincidence, but once again, I don't think I have read anything about evolution, adaptation, etc in the bible. There was air, water, earth, atmosphere, man, animal, plants, etc etc etc... But nothing became something else. In other words, fossils of dinosaurs-then none-then fossils of horses. Not to say that dinosaurs evolved into horses or anything even remotely similar, but when did god decide to make horses and add them to the list of creation? See where I am going with this?

Honestly . . . no. Now I am confused. Are you saying because God didn't specifically list every creature and its entire heredity that Christians can't interpret this when reading the bible?

No, I am wondering how it is that christianity has adapted it's beliefs to suit todays society. Not just in regards to evolution. If god created man, then he created dna, dna is constantly mutating, most mutations are fatal, some are beneficial. It is these beneficial ones that allow us to adapt (ie. immunity). If god created man, dna, mutation etc then he created evolution right? So species exist today that didn't at creation. Hence the new evolution creationists. But nowhere in the bible is there any mention of god starting the process to allow for humans to change, species to change, etc. That is just one example.

Where is it mentioned that abortion is a sin? Where is it mentioned that cloning is "playing god", where is it mentioned that killing during war is right or wrong, where does it mention that any faith other than the Jewish is even worthy of god/heaven? Where does it say that if you confess your sins to a priest, and are truly repentent, that priest/preacher etc can grant you absolution? Where does it say that birth control is a sin? Where does it say it is ok to terminate a pregnancy when the mothers life is in danger such as with an ectopic pregnancy where fetus isn't viable because it is in the fallopian tubes and not the uterus but if you wait another week of so, the tube will perforate and the mother and baby will die if the pregnancy isnt' terminated (that is assuming it says in the bible abortion is wrong to begin with). Where does it say stealing an apple when you are starving is ok? Where does it say that altering a genetic sequence to determine the sex of your child or characteristics is wrong? Where does it say watching pornography is wrong (though I know participating is). Is there a distinction made between being evil or being possessed (because if you are possessed, then you aren't responsible for breaking gods commandments, but if you are just evil or immoral then you are). This is what I am trying to get at.

You have met a lot of catholics havn't you?

Ok question by question . . .

No, I am wondering how it is that christianity has adapted it's beliefs to suit todays society. Not just in regards to evolution. If god created man, then he created dna, dna is constantly mutating, most mutations are fatal, some are beneficial. It is these beneficial ones that allow us to adapt (ie. immunity). If god created man, dna, mutation etc then he created evolution right? So species exist today that didn't at creation. Hence the new evolution creationists. But nowhere in the bible is there any mention of god starting the process to allow for humans to change, species to change, etc. That is just one example.

Why would you expect the bible to spell out things which have little or nothing to do with slavation? This is a trap a lot of non-theists fall into. . .

"The bible doesn't answer my specific question or point, Therefore it is all useless and entirely false." Pardon me, but this attitude is very arrogant. It implies that that person is the single most important thing in the universe and that God and his message should conform to exact specifications for this individual. The bible speaks of god creating. It even speaks about the steps God took. Just because it doesn't explain that he did it via Genetic sequencing et al, doesn't prove that it is false. If you began to tell Moses about evolution and DNA sequences would he have even been able to write it down? No one would have understood that, but they could understand how certain creatures were created and in what order and their place in life. All these points are addressed. Some people look WAY to hard for specific answers to their daily lives. when they don't find out if they should date Tom or not, they give up on the bible. Talk about throwing away the baby.

Where is it mentioned that abortion is a sin?

Exodus 21: 22-25
22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [e] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

Where is it mentioned that cloning is "playing god",

It doesn't that I am aware. Hence I am not against it.

where is it mentioned that killing during war is right or wrong,

There are no direct verses about killing during war times. However, God did instruct the Hebrews to defend themselves and yes even to attack. This is where the idea comes from that killing during war falls under a different pretext than murder. While I do not agree that going to war just to advance yourself onto other nations is "good" I have ZERO problem kicking the **** out of people who attack me first.

where does it mention that any faith other than the Jewish is even worthy of god/heaven?

Exodus 20
3 "You shall have no other gods before [a] me.

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Exodus 23
13 "Be careful to do everything I have said to you. Do not invoke the names of other gods; do not let them be heard on your lips.

John 14
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Where does it say that if you confess your sins to a priest, and are truly repentent, that priest/preacher etc can grant you absolution?

I think this idea comes from Romans 10:10
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

However, notice that the priest thing is specificaly not mentioned. the catholic church added in these rules in order to gain financial, economic and spiritual power over masses of uneducated "normal" people. honestly I think that Catholic church did so much harm to True Christianity that it can never be the same. A suggestion. If it is catholic in nature, be very cautious and investigate if it is truely biblical in nature. Much of what they offer borders on EVIL.

Where does it say that birth control is a sin?

It doesn't. Catholics again. I don't follow it.

Where does it say it is ok to terminate a pregnancy when the mothers life is in danger such as with an ectopic pregnancy where fetus isn't viable because it is in the fallopian tubes and not the uterus but if you wait another week of so, the tube will perforate and the mother and baby will die if the pregnancy isnt' terminated (that is assuming it says in the bible abortion is wrong to begin with).

Try the book of Indiana Jones. Chapter 3 verse 67.

You are rather specific arn't you? Ok . . . The bible will never have every specific answer to every specific question. Take what it has and figure it out. In this example, it is simple common sense. If the pregnancy is dangerous and the end result will probably kill everyone, then isn't it in the best interest to save whom we can? Common sense?

Where does it say stealing an apple when you are starving is ok?

It doesn't. It says work for what you get. However, consider that there is also forgivness offered for sins so then if I were in that situation I would weigh forgivness for committing a sin against starving to death. I don't think God would have a problem seeing past that particular sin. Remember that books are rigid, but judges are not. They can make decisions which contradict law books in any case with special circumstances. If human judges have this ability, why wouldn't god be able to make his own choices on a case by case basis? Don't lock God into a bible shaped box.

Where does it say that altering a genetic sequence to determine the sex of your child or characteristics is wrong?

It doesn't. I have no problem with it.

Where does it say watching pornography is wrong (though I know participating is).

Matthew 5
28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


Romans 1:27
In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

There are a few more places.

Is there a distinction made between being evil or being possessed (because if you are possessed, then you aren't responsible for breaking gods commandments, but if you are just evil or immoral then you are).

Matthew 12:35
The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.

Luke 6:45
The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.

Seems God can judge a persons heart, not just their actions.

This is what I am trying to get at.

It seems to me that once again the Christian church is its own worst enemy. Catholic judgement in particular seems to have caused you a great deal of harm. I sincerly hope that oneday you will be able to see past the hatred and judgemental glasses that the Catholic church and other churches you have been to have used against you and forced you to wear. The teachings of many churches is so far from what Jesus taught it is amazing.

PS Have you ever actually read through just the teachings of Jesus? He really has some wise and very simple words. I think you may enjoy it for what it is worth.

Well, if someone is fined for causing the death of another mans unborn child, that certainly doesn't cover the concept of a woman terminating her own pregancy on purpose for what ever reason. As a matter of fact, there is a procedure in the Bible that covers when a high priest can cause an abortion.

[melikio]

To me, the most significant things concerning Christianity, have to do with the condition of people's hearts. To me, that is where "eternity" and "fatihfulness" are truly reflected. And the most important by-product of that is LOVE (not just a "feeling", but a way of perceiving and living life itself).

Beyond that, I think that Christianity is merely "religion"; just as other religions are; and no, I'm NOT speaking to the spiritual components of other belief systems. While I could imagine I understand that part, I wouldn't know the experience of that; Christianity is what I'm familiar with spiritually speaking. Still, the mechanics of "religion" (even Christianity) are things that change with the times; not ALL surrounding it is "eternal". My view is that the spiritual elements coursing through the hearts and minds of believers, are what do not actually change.

I'm virtually certain, that the SHELLS or SKINS of what religions are shed of fade over time/space. The true essence of what who/what God is makes its home in our individual hearts (spirit). It is not planted in some book, ritual or religious "movement". And Jesus' message was the epitome of a person's life reflecting what truly matters. And personally, I don't care if religion looks or sounds a certain way, as long as it truly reflects or represents the essence of LOVE as Jesus also represented. Anything outside of those parameters (to me), is questionable and should likely be subject to great scrutiny in general.

As I said before, "science" can and does offer mankind many answers (but not all); and the same is often true of "religion". The problems come when people put either science or religion at a level of importance or reverence ABOVE that of individual human beings.

I'm a song writer; and I think as deeply about what I say in songs as anything else. And I know that when Burt Bacharach wrote, "What The World Needs Is Love" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs8JzhpkGUY), it is far deeper in meaning than most people tend to realize, in part because Bacharach's talent puts it in a "pill" that allows it to be digested by multitudes of people. No, I'm not implying any song composer is "Jesus" per se, but pointing out the essence of Jesus' overall message (what is meaningful and "eternal" about it).

The spiritual essence of what LOVE is, is what is "eternal". And the "adaptation" of Christianity basically hinges upon that (in my view); it's not really surprizing or shocking to me, that anything else concerning "Christianity" or any other religion might change or be adapted/adjusted over time and space.

-Mel-

[achilles12604]

Well, if someone is fined for causing the death of another mans unborn child, that certainly doesn't cover the concept of a woman terminating her own pregancy on purpose for what ever reason. As a matter of fact, there is a procedure in the Bible that covers when a high priest can cause an abortion.

Oh . . . please enlighten me.

[Goat]

Well, if someone is fined for causing the death of another mans unborn child, that certainly doesn't cover the concept of a woman terminating her own pregancy on purpose for what ever reason. As a matter of fact, there is a procedure in the Bible that covers when a high priest can cause an abortion.

Oh . . . please enlighten me.

Numbers 5. If a man suspected his wife of infidelity, and she was pregnant,the high priest would feed that woman 'bitter water'. If she had a miscarriage, it was a sign the child was not his.

[achilles12604]

Well, if someone is fined for causing the death of another mans unborn child, that certainly doesn't cover the concept of a woman terminating her own pregancy on purpose for what ever reason. As a matter of fact, there is a procedure in the Bible that covers when a high priest can cause an abortion.

Oh . . . please enlighten me.

Numbers 5. If a man suspected his wife of infidelity, and she was pregnant,the high priest would feed that woman 'bitter water'. If she had a miscarriage, it was a sign the child was not his.

Oh yea . . . For claiming to have good knowledge of Jewish writings you obviously don't double check yourself.

Here is Numbers 5 the section you are talking about. Please feel free to show me what verse the woman is pregnant much less where an abortion was carried out. (Hint: I couldn't find it anywhere and I read it several times.)

The Test for an Unfaithful Wife
11 Then the LORD said to Moses, 12 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'If a man's wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 by sleeping with another man, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure- 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah [c] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder offering to draw attention to guilt.
16 " 'The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the LORD. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the LORD, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, "If no other man has slept with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have defiled yourself by sleeping with a man other than your husband"- 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse of the oath-"may the LORD cause your people to curse and denounce you when he causes your thigh to waste away and your abdomen to swell. [d] 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells and your thigh wastes away. [e] "
" 'Then the woman is to say, "Amen. So be it."

23 " 'The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall have the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water will enter her and cause bitter suffering. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the LORD and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has defiled herself and been unfaithful to her husband, then when she is made to drink the water that brings a curse, it will go into her and cause bitter suffering; her abdomen will swell and her thigh waste away, [f] and she will become accursed among her people. 28 If, however, the woman has not defiled herself and is free from impurity, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

29 " 'This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and defiles herself while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the LORD and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.' "

[Goat]

Well, if someone is fined for causing the death of another mans unborn child, that certainly doesn't cover the concept of a woman terminating her own pregancy on purpose for what ever reason. As a matter of fact, there is a procedure in the Bible that covers when a high priest can cause an abortion.

Oh . . . please enlighten me.

Numbers 5. If a man suspected his wife of infidelity, and she was pregnant,the high priest would feed that woman 'bitter water'. If she had a miscarriage, it was a sign the child was not his.

Oh yea . . . For claiming to have good knowledge of Jewish writings you obviously don't double check yourself.

Here is Numbers 5 the section you are talking about. Please feel free to show me what verse the woman is pregnant much less where an abortion was carried out. (Hint: I couldn't find it anywhere and I read it several times.)

The Test for an Unfaithful Wife
11 Then the LORD said to Moses, 12 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'If a man's wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 by sleeping with another man, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure- 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah [c] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder offering to draw attention to guilt.
16 " 'The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the LORD. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the LORD, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, "If no other man has slept with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have defiled yourself by sleeping with a man other than your husband"- 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse of the oath-"may the LORD cause your people to curse and denounce you when he causes your thigh to waste away and your abdomen to swell. [d] 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells and your thigh wastes away. [e] "
" 'Then the woman is to say, "Amen. So be it."

23 " 'The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall have the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water will enter her and cause bitter suffering. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the LORD and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has defiled herself and been unfaithful to her husband, then when she is made to drink the water that brings a curse, it will go into her and cause bitter suffering; her abdomen will swell and her thigh waste away, [f] and she will become accursed among her people. 28 If, however, the woman has not defiled herself and is free from impurity, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

29 " 'This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and defiles herself while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the LORD and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.' "

If you read Numbers 5:27, you will see that is a euphanism for a miscarriage. Now, what is a miscarriage that happens when someone gives a substance to a woman to induce it?? It is known as an abortion.

From http://experts.about.com/e/r/re/Religio ... ortion.htm

Sotah: uses of an abortifacient?
Numbers 5 describe the Sotah procedure for the trial by ordeal of women suspected of adultery that involves drinking a potion that supposedly induces miscarriage if the woman is guilty. The outcome of the trial would be barrenness if the woman had committed adultery; if she was not guilty, she would be able to bear children. This practice was discontinued after the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D., possibly because the potion required ingredients from the Temple's altar which was no longer available after the Temple's destruction. According to some contemporary Christian commentaries, including the Ryrie Study Bible and the NIV Study Bible, this trial would induce miscarriage if a guilty woman was pregnant when she submitted to it.

[Cathar1950]

I wonder if this little magical rite worked?
Maybe the power of suggestion?
Or maybe the guy was jealous and this just shut him up.

[Goat]

I wonder if this little magical rite worked?
Maybe the power of suggestion?
Or maybe the guy was jealous and this just shut him up.

I suspect that the 'bitter waters' was not very condusive to the health of a fetus.

Personally, I am glad this little ritual went away when the temple was destroyed. However, the principle that we, as humans, get involved in life and death decisions, such as abortions, remains.

[Cathar1950]

I wonder if this little magical rite worked?
Maybe the power of suggestion?
Or maybe the guy was jealous and this just shut him up.

I suspect that the 'bitter waters' was not very condusive to the health of a fetus.

Personally, I am glad this little ritual went away when the temple was destroyed. However, the principle that we, as humans, get involved in life and death decisions, such as abortions, remains.

You got my vote.
Of course at one time God was responsible for all good and evil.
And any disaster that befell mankind was because of his sin or even his parents.
Some readers of the bible do not understand the development of ideas.