Atheists it is your turn . . .

[achilles12604]

Ok lets say that God failed miserably. He turns to you and asks you to start over.

Using whatever power you wish to have, how would you create a world of intelligent beings so that you will have a creation which choses to love and worship you.

Here are the only rules . . .

1) You have to obey the laws of the Universe you created because as far as we humans know, these are the only laws that can co-exist. In otherwords you can not create constant contradictions in physics. Example : Gravity can not be violated unless you directly intervene. To violate given laws youu must directly and quite obviously suspend the laws at that given point in time.

2) You can not violate the free will of the creatures to fight against you if they wish. This includes not creating them because not creating someone simply because they will rebel is the ultimate violation of that persons free will. They didn't even get the chance to rebel.

3) Human nature must remain the same. In other words, we have to be of average intelligence and be able to comprehend certain things and be totally clueless about others. We can not possibly know the future, not even 1 second ahead. And human tendency to lust for power, control over our lives, and non-submission to authoritiy figures without a good reason have to remain intact.


Now, given these rules what would you do? How would you interact with your creation? How would you get most of them to desire to love you while at the same time alloing those who wished for the power to run their lives without you, to ignore you entirely?

Points to remember -
-Humans hate being controlled.
-Human's generally are shortsighted and rarely plan for the future (this is why so many Americans have zero retirement and 24000 in debt).
-If a human see's you and your power absolutly directly (like in the OT with pillars of fire and things like this), it will cause even those who otherwise would rebel to follow you out of fear and nothing more. These individuals would never love you. The would simply fear you.

[Cmass]

Seriously, I don't know where in scripture the words of christ actually say "I command you worship me".

There are plenty of examples of what he does if you don't worship Him so he doesn't have to say those exact words. Although, he does come awfully darned close:

Mathew 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

"Listen, O daughter, consider and incline your ear; forget your own people also, and your father's house; so the King will greatly desire your beauty; because He is your Lord, worship Him."

If we do not do so, we are guilty of idolatry. No other sin has such a direct and concentrated focus of attention. The basic requirement is that we are to worship Him alone, and to allow any person or thing to usurp that position of lordship over us constitutes gross disobedience. The first and most basic reason why we worship God is that He commands it and forbids the worship of others.

I think my mother is worth worshipping more that a concept. She raised 9 children on her own with no other skills than bartending.

I just donated 5 tokens in the name of your Mom. Please give them to your her! Or, if you win the MPG, give her the gift you win. If Mom had spent as much time sitting in Church - as many people would say she should - you would have been neglected and likely starved to death. But at least you would all be in heaven together.

Keep teasing me!!!!!!LOL.

Next, I will tickle you through the computer:
Look behind you. Nope, the other way. There do you see that? Look closer. There, now do you see it? Yep, that is me. Do I not look like you thought? Now look behind the computer. Do you see? I'm there too. :D/ And up? Yep, there too. Breath deeply. Yep, that is me sustaining you. Don't be paranoid.

Remember, I'm God in this thread. Which means I am everything. I am every atom in your being. I am everything you have been, are, will be. You are entirely composed of ME.
Tickle, tickle tickle.

[Bugmaster]

Using whatever power you wish to have, how would you create a world of intelligent beings so that you will have a creation which choses to love and worship you....
... 3) Human nature must remain the same. In other words, we have to be of average intelligence and be able to comprehend certain things and be totally clueless about others.

Wait, so am I creating things from scratch, or am I trying to patch the existing humans that we have now ?

We can not possibly know the future, not even 1 second ahead.

That's a bit unfair. Modern humans can know the future with a reasonable degree of certainty, sometimes years ahead. This allows us to launch space probes and maintain mutual funds, among other things.

Anyway, Stanislaw Lem, and Terry Pratchett, among others, describe the problem of divinity in detail. It seems that an omni-everything (or as near enough to it as makes no difference) deity cannot take any action at all to influence his creations, without violating morality and making things worse in some way or another. If humans are ultimately selfish, then whatever gifts you give them will be misused for sure. And if you change the humans to be less selfish, you might as well be playing with puppets.

[achilles12604]

Using whatever power you wish to have, how would you create a world of intelligent beings so that you will have a creation which choses to love and worship you....
... 3) Human nature must remain the same. In other words, we have to be of average intelligence and be able to comprehend certain things and be totally clueless about others.

Wait, so am I creating things from scratch, or am I trying to patch the existing humans that we have now ?

We can not possibly know the future, not even 1 second ahead.

That's a bit unfair. Modern humans can know the future with a reasonable degree of certainty, sometimes years ahead. This allows us to launch space probes and maintain mutual funds, among other things.

Anyway, Stanislaw Lem, and Terry Pratchett, among others, describe the problem of divinity in detail. It seems that an omni-everything (or as near enough to it as makes no difference) deity cannot take any action at all to influence his creations, without violating morality and making things worse in some way or another. If humans are ultimately selfish, then whatever gifts you give them will be misused for sure. And if you change the humans to be less selfish, you might as well be playing with puppets.

Sorry. I should have been more clear. Everyone is starting from scratch, not patching. I'll make the correction on the original thread.

[Confused]

Seriously, I don't know where in scripture the words of christ actually say "I command you worship me".

There are plenty of examples of what he does if you don't worship Him so he doesn't have to say those exact words. Although, he does come awfully darned close:

Mathew 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

"Listen, O daughter, consider and incline your ear; forget your own people also, and your father's house; so the King will greatly desire your beauty; because He is your Lord, worship Him."

If we do not do so, we are guilty of idolatry. No other sin has such a direct and concentrated focus of attention. The basic requirement is that we are to worship Him alone, and to allow any person or thing to usurp that position of lordship over us constitutes gross disobedience. The first and most basic reason why we worship God is that He commands it and forbids the worship of others.

I think my mother is worth worshipping more that a concept. She raised 9 children on her own with no other skills than bartending.

I just donated 5 tokens in the name of your Mom. Please give them to your her! Or, if you win the MPG, give her the gift you win. If Mom had spent as much time sitting in Church - as many people would say she should - you would have been neglected and likely starved to death. But at least you would all be in heaven together.

Keep teasing me!!!!!!LOL.

Next, I will tickle you through the computer:
Look behind you. Nope, the other way. There do you see that? Look closer. There, now do you see it? Yep, that is me. Do I not look like you thought? Now look behind the computer. Do you see? I'm there too. :D/ And up? Yep, there too. Breath deeply. Yep, that is me sustaining you. Don't be paranoid.

Remember, I'm God in this thread. Which means I am everything. I am every atom in your being. I am everything you have been, are, will be. You are entirely composed of ME.
Tickle, tickle tickle.

You so overwhelming. My mom would definately thank you for the compliment. For me to worship anything, I must first understand it. And it must be worthy of worship. A god who can put himself in front of humanity and justify why mankind should put their faith in him is one worthy of my worship. A god who hides behind an obscure text that can be misinterpreted very easily is one that is likely more man made than divine.

[FiredUp4jesus]

Seriously, I don't know where in scripture the words of christ actually say "I command you worship me".

There are plenty of examples of what he does if you don't worship Him so he doesn't have to say those exact words. Although, he does come awfully darned close:

Mathew 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

"Listen, O daughter, consider and incline your ear; forget your own people also, and your father's house; so the King will greatly desire your beauty; because He is your Lord, worship Him."

If we do not do so, we are guilty of idolatry. No other sin has such a direct and concentrated focus of attention. The basic requirement is that we are to worship Him alone, and to allow any person or thing to usurp that position of lordship over us constitutes gross disobedience. The first and most basic reason why we worship God is that He commands it and forbids the worship of others.

I think my mother is worth worshipping more that a concept. She raised 9 children on her own with no other skills than bartending.

I just donated 5 tokens in the name of your Mom. Please give them to your her! Or, if you win the MPG, give her the gift you win. If Mom had spent as much time sitting in Church - as many people would say she should - you would have been neglected and likely starved to death. But at least you would all be in heaven together.

Keep teasing me!!!!!!LOL.

Next, I will tickle you through the computer:
Look behind you. Nope, the other way. There do you see that? Look closer. There, now do you see it? Yep, that is me. Do I not look like you thought? Now look behind the computer. Do you see? I'm there too. :D/ And up? Yep, there too. Breath deeply. Yep, that is me sustaining you. Don't be paranoid.

Remember, I'm God in this thread. Which means I am everything. I am every atom in your being. I am everything you have been, are, will be. You are entirely composed of ME.
Tickle, tickle tickle.

You so overwhelming. My mom would definately thank you for the compliment. For me to worship anything, I must first understand it. And it must be worthy of worship. A god who can put himself in front of humanity and justify why mankind should put their faith in him is one worthy of my worship. A god who hides behind an obscure text that can be misinterpreted very easily is one that is likely more man made than divine.

So, if I understand you correctly. If Jesus really is God and really came down to earth to live a human life and shake hands with real people, and lived the kind of life He thinks we should live, then you would feel He is worthy of worship. I guess for you it all boils down to whither or not you think the gospels are a fairy tale or the truth. I don't think the gospels are very hard to interpret at all.

[Confused]

So, if I understand you correctly. If Jesus really is God and really came down to earth to live a human life and shake hands with real people, and lived the kind of life He thinks we should live, then you would feel He is worthy of worship. I guess for you it all boils down to whither or not you think the gospels are a fairy tale or the truth. I don't think the gospels are very hard to interpret at all.

[/quote]

Once again, you must remember that only those with ears can hear, only those with faith can understand. What I am saying is that a god who created mankind/earth/and everything else should maintain a presence with his creation. Not those he decides are worthy. If he can create mankind and the earth etc etc etc, then I say show yourself, show these miracles and let it be known once and for all that you created them, not some random chance. His presence should be seen by all, he should be held accountable for the bad he created as well as the good (ie serial murders and saints). a creator should be one in which is willing to not ask man to record history, but one which should show history himself. He should be subject to the same laws he created for man. Whether the gospels are truth or not is irrelevant. If a god created us, he should be the one to hand down the information himself, not rely on man (whom he already knows is subject to greed, lust, and power). A god to me is one in which is involved in his creation in such a way that his creation can't mistake it for fate or destiny or science. Thats what I search for.

[FiredUp4jesus]

So, if I understand you correctly. If Jesus really is God and really came down to earth to live a human life and shake hands with real people, and lived the kind of life He thinks we should live, then you would feel He is worthy of worship. I guess for you it all boils down to whither or not you think the gospels are a fairy tale or the truth. I don't think the gospels are very hard to interpret at all.

Once again, you must remember that only those with ears can hear, only those with faith can understand. What I am saying is that a god who created mankind/earth/and everything else should maintain a presence with his creation. Not those he decides are worthy. If he can create mankind and the earth etc etc etc, then I say show yourself, show these miracles and let it be known once and for all that you created them, not some random chance. His presence should be seen by all, he should be held accountable for the bad he created as well as the good (ie serial murders and saints). a creator should be one in which is willing to not ask man to record history, but one which should show history himself. He should be subject to the same laws he created for man. Whether the gospels are truth or not is irrelevant. If a god created us, he should be the one to hand down the information himself, not rely on man (whom he already knows is subject to greed, lust, and power). A god to me is one in which is involved in his creation in such a way that his creation can't mistake it for fate or destiny or science. Thats what I search for.

I picked up a great book this weekend. It's about Integrity. It defines integrety as having the courage to face the demands of reality. I think that is what Jesus was talking about when he was talking about the ears to hear and eyes to see. Do you have the courage to face the reality of your life? Look back on the events of your life. What do you see? What are the effects of your life on the people you come into contact with? Don't make excuses. Own your behavor and perhaps even more importantlyown the results.

Now about your last post, you seem to have a problem with the way God has chosen to reveal Himself to the world. But let me ask you a question. If God revealed Himself as you seem to think would be best, what effect would that have on our free will? People such as yourself, might serve God for the wrong reasons.

[achilles12604]

So, if I understand you correctly. If Jesus really is God and really came down to earth to live a human life and shake hands with real people, and lived the kind of life He thinks we should live, then you would feel He is worthy of worship. I guess for you it all boils down to whither or not you think the gospels are a fairy tale or the truth. I don't think the gospels are very hard to interpret at all.

Once again, you must remember that only those with ears can hear, only those with faith can understand. What I am saying is that a god who created mankind/earth/and everything else should maintain a presence with his creation. Not those he decides are worthy. If he can create mankind and the earth etc etc etc, then I say show yourself, show these miracles and let it be known once and for all that you created them, not some random chance. His presence should be seen by all, he should be held accountable for the bad he created as well as the good (ie serial murders and saints). a creator should be one in which is willing to not ask man to record history, but one which should show history himself. He should be subject to the same laws he created for man. Whether the gospels are truth or not is irrelevant. If a god created us, he should be the one to hand down the information himself, not rely on man (whom he already knows is subject to greed, lust, and power). A god to me is one in which is involved in his creation in such a way that his creation can't mistake it for fate or destiny or science. Thats what I search for.

I picked up a great book this weekend. It's about Integrity. It defines integrety as having the courage to face the demands of reality. I think that is what Jesus was talking about when he was talking about the ears to hear and eyes to see. Do you have the courage to face the reality of your life? Look back on the events of your life. What do you see? What are the effects of your life on the people you come into contact with? Don't make excuses. Own your behavor and perhaps even more importantlyown the results.

Now about your last post, you seem to have a problem with the way God has chosen to reveal Himself to the world. But let me ask you a question. If God revealed Himself as you seem to think would be best, what effect would that have on our free will? People such as yourself, might serve God for the wrong reasons.

I second his motion.

[Cmass]

Now about your last post, you seem to have a problem with the way God has chosen to reveal Himself to the world. But let me ask you a question. If God revealed Himself as you seem to think would be best, what effect would that have on our free will? People such as yourself, might serve God for the wrong reasons.

Fired up and Achilles, I think you both should think really, really hard about this one! You have left yourself wide open for a serious volley over the net.

[Cathar1950]

Now about your last post, you seem to have a problem with the way God has chosen to reveal Himself to the world. But let me ask you a question. If God revealed Himself as you seem to think would be best, what effect would that have on our free will? People such as yourself, might serve God for the wrong reasons.

Fired up and Achilles, I think you both should think really, really hard about this one! You have left yourself wide open for a serious volley over the net.

Wow that is like Cmass hits the ball over the net and FiredUp4jesus ran up to the net and tossed his racket at him.
I am not sure where you should even start.
Ignoring the obvious divine command theory of morality the self interest at obeying God because you will go to hell but you accuse his kind (Cmass)of being evil and with no quality other then self-interest self. It seems you are saying God does not show himself in a rational reasonable fashion like anything else in the world because people like Cmass will repent for the wrong reasons and also lose his free will. I learned about sex it didnt make me lose my free will. I am wondering what this free will is and this choice so righteously made so some one like you could be saved and not someone like Cmass.