Why not a Christian Shema?

[Elijah John]

For those who worship Jesus, and pray TO Jesus in Jesus name, why not just dispense with Trinitarian theory and proclaim Jesus alone, as simply as Jews proclaim YHVH alone?

If Jesus is the all sufficient and Almighty God, why not?

How about:

"Hear ye, hear ye, Jesus is our God, Jesus is one"?

or a Jesus Shahada:

"There is no God but Jesus, and Paul is his messenger"?

The intent of this post is not to offend, but to illustrate absurdity, and to provoke thought and debate.

Questions for debate, when put in terms of a Jesus Shema, or a Jesus Shahada, does Jesus worship sound more or less absurd?

If one is NOT uncomfortable praying to, worshiping, and serving Jesus alone, why not proclaim the fact simply and boldly as Jews do for YHVH, and Muslims do for Allah?

Why cloak Jesus worship in Trinitarian theology? Does Jesus worship ignore (in practice) 2/3 of the Trinity?

[YahDough]

If one is NOT uncomfortable praying to, worshiping, and serving Jesus alone, why not proclaim the fact simply and boldly as Jews do for YHVH, and Muslims do for Allah?

That would be the same mistake the Jews and Muslims do by leaving Jesus out of prayer, worship and service. Jesus is the Door to YHVH. There is no eternal hope for us without Jesus.

Does Jesus worship ignore (in practice) 2/3 of the Trinity?

I don't think so. It would more likely cover all three: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Jesus and the Father are in unity and the Holy Ghost comes in the name of Jesus. Everything is covered through Christ.

[Elijah John]

If one is NOT uncomfortable praying to, worshiping, and serving Jesus alone, why not proclaim the fact simply and boldly as Jews do for YHVH, and Muslims do for Allah?

That would be the same mistake the Jews and Muslims do by leaving Jesus out of prayer, worship and service. Jesus is the Door to YHVH. There is no eternal hope for us without Jesus.

If one prays TO Jesus, in the name of Jesus, isn't Jesus acting as the door to..... Jesus? Doesn't that "short-circuit" the Trinity?

Does Jesus worship ignore (in practice) 2/3 of the Trinity?

I don't think so. It would more likely cover all three: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Jesus and the Father are in unity and the Holy Ghost comes in the name of Jesus. Everything is covered through Christ.

Assuming that's so, that by focusing on one the other two are included... Then wouldn't that be true also if one focuses entirely on the Father as well? If by focusing entirely on the Son, one has the Father and the Holy Spirit as well, implicitly (and assuming the Trinity is a reality) then those who focus on the Father alone (Jews and Muslims) would have the Holy Spirit and the Son as well...whether they realize it or not, right?

You may say, "everything is covered through Christ"...then why can't someone say, everything is covered through YHVH (the Father)?

Even so, assuming all three are included in any one Person of the Trinity...fact is, Jesus taught us to focus on the Father, right?

And if one prays to Jesus, IN Jesus name, that makes Jesus the only God, as a practical matter anyway.

I guess it boils down to a matter of honor, whether the Father is indeed honored by the worship of the Son...or not. Or if Son-worship violates Shema, and the First Commandment. "I am YHVH who brought thee out of the land of Egypt..thou shalt have no other gods before me". A mediator-god is a god before (between) Almighty God and his human creatures. Else God is a mediator to himself. So which is it, is Jesus a mediator, or is he God?

So if one wants to worship Jesus, why not worship Jesus wholeheartedly, and entirely? Exclusively? and have a bold statement of faith, a Jesus Shahada/Shema?

Jesus is either ALL God, or not God at all. Seems to me one cannot be a Trinitarian and a true Monotheist at the same time.

[YahDough]

If one is NOT uncomfortable praying to, worshiping, and serving Jesus alone, why not proclaim the fact simply and boldly as Jews do for YHVH, and Muslims do for Allah?

That would be the same mistake the Jews and Muslims do by leaving Jesus out of prayer, worship and service. Jesus is the Door to YHVH. There is no eternal hope for us without Jesus.

If one prays TO Jesus, in the name of Jesus, isn't Jesus acting as the door to..... Jesus? Doesn't that "short-circuit" the Trinity?

Should a person be or feel unable to converse with his Lawyer/Advocate? Since Jesus, by His own words, was able to reject being fully obedient to the Father's will, shouldn't He be praised for being obedient on our behalf? Did the Son do nothing to deserve our gratitude? That is absurd. Protocol may suggest we pray to the Father in the name of Jesus, but sometimes we may find it needful to pray to Jesus in the name of (for the sake of) ourselves. I think the Father hears those prayers.

Does Jesus worship ignore (in practice) 2/3 of the Trinity?

I don't think so. It would more likely cover all three: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Jesus and the Father are in unity and the Holy Ghost comes in the name of Jesus. Everything is covered through Christ.

Assuming that's so, that by focusing on one the other two are included... Then wouldn't that be true also if one focuses entirely on the Father as well? If by focusing entirely on the Son, one has the Father and the Holy Spirit as well, implicitly (and assuming the Trinity is a reality) then those who focus on the Father alone (Jews and Muslims) would have the Holy Spirit and the Son as well...whether they realize it or not, right?

No. You can't have the Father without the Son but if you have the Son. you have the Father. And here's the thing. If one focuses on the Father, a name which is not even used for GOD in the O.T., then that person would/should be concerned with the Father's will. So what is the Father's will?

Jn:6:39: And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

So how could anyone leave Jesus out of the salvation message and expect God to be with them?

You may say, "everything is covered through Christ"...then why can't someone say, everything is covered through YHVH (the Father)?

For one thing Jesus is part of YHVH. Remember? The Father is Yah and Jesus is the Weh. Do you think the Father operates outside of His Son? I tell you no. Everything God has created is for and through His Son. Col:1:16:

Even so, assuming all three are included in any one Person of the Trinity...fact is, Jesus taught us to focus on the Father, right?

You mean to focus on the WILL of the Father. And Jesus is the only "person" of the so-called trinity.

Jn:6:39: And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

I guess it boils down to a matter of honor, whether the Father is indeed honored by the worship of the Son...or not. Or if Son-worship violates Shema, and the First Commandment. "I am YHVH who brought thee out of the land of Egypt..thou shalt have no other gods before me". A mediator-god is a god before (between) Almighty God and his human creatures. Else God is a mediator to himself. So which is it, is Jesus a mediator, or is he God?

Again you have missed the truth that the "the LORD our God is one God" quote from the Bible is the Father/Son union. How can Jesus be the Lord if He is not part of the LORD?

So if one wants to worship Jesus, why not worship Jesus wholeheartedly, and entirely? Exclusively? and have a bold statement of faith, a Jesus Shahada/Shema?

Some people do. That would be better than trying to worship the Father without the Son.

Jesus is either ALL God, or not God at all. Seems to me one cannot be a Trinitarian and a true Monotheist at the same time.

Jesus said you could.

Jn:14:1: Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Eloihim is our Creator. Gen 1:1.(Hebrew) Eloihim is also a plural.

It might help if one understands the Father God as being the Source of all things and the Son, Jesus, being the Lord God of heaven and earth.

Jn:20:28: And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

[Elijah John]

If one prays TO Jesus, in the name of Jesus, isn't Jesus acting as the door to..... Jesus? Doesn't that "short-circuit" the Trinity?

Should a person be or feel unable to converse with his Lawyer/Advocate? Since Jesus, by His own words, was able to reject being fully obedient to the Father's will, shouldn't He be praised for being obedient on our behalf? Did the Son do nothing to deserve our gratitude? That is absurd.

Straw man, I never said Jesus did nothing to deserve our gratitude only that God alone is worthy of our worship. Jesus died for his principles, and taught about the Father. And lived out his beliefs. That is praisworthy.

No. You can't have the Father without the Son but if you have the Son. you have the Father.

Tell that to millions of Jews, who have the Father, and don't even believe he has a "Son". At least not the way you do. Also, if you assert that one can have the Father only if one has the Son and not the reverse, aren't you making the Son greater than the Father?

And here's the thing. If one focuses on the Father, a name which is not even used for GOD in the O.T., then that person would/should be concerned with the Father's will. So what is the Father's will?

The name of God is in the Hebrew Bible almost 7000 times. The LORD is a euphemism for YHVH.

The Father's will? It is revealed in the Law and the Prophets, and summarized this way by Jesus: You shall love YHVH your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.

If you love Jesus as a god, you are dividing your love and not loving the Father (God, YHVH) wholeheartedly.

And again, the will of God is summarized by Jesus this way: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

Jn:6:39: And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

So how could anyone leave Jesus out of the salvation message and expect God to be with them?

That may only be part of the Father's will, see above. But if we pit John's Jesus, against the Synoptic Jesus, I choose the Synoptic Jesus as being more in line with the Hebrew Bible, and therefore more accurate. Jesus was a Jew after all.

For one thing Jesus is part of YHVH. Remember? The Father is Yah and Jesus is the Weh.

Unsubstantiated claim, to say the least. Prove it please...can you do so without using linguistic gymnastics?

If Jesus is "part of" YHVH, then what is the Father's name that he hallows in the Lord's prayer? Common usage would indicate that it is indeed YHVH, the same name that King David honors over and over again in the Pslams, and the Prophets constantly honor. A simple reading of the Jerusalem Bible or the American Standard Version of the Bible would be eye opening if you doubt this.

Do you think the Father operates outside of His Son? I tell you no. Everything God has created is for and through His Son. Col:1:16:

So says Paul. But according to the Hebrew Bible, he can, and he does.

Again you have missed the truth that the "the LORD our God is one God" quote from the Bible is the Father/Son union. How can Jesus be the Lord if He is not part of the LORD?

Simple, the same way he can be "Master"" Rabbi"...Lord, not LORD (YHVH) even the NT does not refer to him as LORD, all caps.

So if one wants to worship Jesus, why not worship Jesus wholeheartedly, and entirely? Exclusively? and have a bold statement of faith, a Jesus Shahada/Shema?

Some people do. That would be better than trying to worship the Father without the Son.

That proves my point, that some Trinitarians when it comes right down to it choose the Son over the Father, and that is a violation of the First Commandment.

Jesus is either ALL God, or not God at all. Seems to me one cannot be a Trinitarian and a true Monotheist at the same time.

Jesus said you could.
Jn:14:1: Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.[/b]

That is not to say to believe in Jesus the same way we believe in the Father. I doubt very much that Jesus was suggesting that, or putting himself as the Father's equal, especially when he says in the same Gospel that "the Father is greater than I".

Eloihim is our Creator. Gen 1:1.(Hebrew) Eloihim is also a plural.

It might help if one understands the Father God as being the Source of all things and the Son, Jesus, being the Lord God of heaven and earth.

Jn:20:28: And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Elohim being plural is evidence of Jews moving from the Monaltry* of Moses, to pure Monotheism of Isaiah.

It could also be plural of majesty.

Or inclusiveness of all aspects of the Divine.

Or even God and the Angels.

It was almost certainly not to meant to be understood as the "Father and the Son.(Messiah).

Jews don't interpret it that way, and they wrote the book. Jesus himself gives no evidence that "Elohim" means "YHVH and the Messiah."

And the Thomas remark was just an exclamation.

(* "monolatry" the sole devotion to one God, while acknowledging that other gods exist.)

[YahDough]

If one prays TO Jesus, in the name of Jesus, isn't Jesus acting as the door to..... Jesus? Doesn't that "short-circuit" the Trinity?

Should a person be or feel unable to converse with his Lawyer/Advocate? Since Jesus, by His own words, was able to reject being fully obedient to the Father's will, shouldn't He be praised for being obedient on our behalf? Did the Son do nothing to deserve our gratitude? That is absurd.

Straw man, I never said Jesus did nothing to deserve our gratitude only that God alone is worthy of our worship. Jesus died for his principles, and taught about the Father. And lived out his beliefs. That is praisworthy.

"God alone" does not exist. Jesus is in the bosom of the Father. Through Jesus the Father has been declared to us Jn:1:18: Jesus died for us, not His principles.

No. You can't have the Father without the Son but if you have the Son. you have the Father.

Tell that to millions of Jews, who have the Father, and don't even believe he has a "Son". At least not the way you do. Also, if you assert that one can have the Father only if one has the Son and not the reverse, aren't you making the Son greater than the Father?

If God sends His Son and His Son is rejected, then the Father is also rejected because the Father sent Him. How much more is the consequence of that when the Son is the Messiah? There is a parable about that in Mt:21.

And here's the thing. If one focuses on the Father, a name which is not even used for GOD in the O.T., then that person would/should be concerned with the Father's will. So what is the Father's will?

The name of God is in the Hebrew Bible almost 7000 times. The LORD is a euphemism for YHVH.

And YHVH is a euphemism for Eloihim, the original Hebrew word for the plural Creator God.

The Father's will? It is revealed in the Law and the Prophets, and summarized this way by Jesus: You shall love YHVH your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.

The "LORD our God" is Jesus in conjunction with the Father.

If you love Jesus as a god, you are dividing your love and not loving the Father (God, YHVH) wholeheartedly.

If you reject Jesus as the Messiah then you reject the God who sent Him. If you love Jesus you love the Father who sent Him.

Jn:6:39: And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

So how could anyone leave Jesus out of the salvation message and expect God to be with them?

For one thing Jesus is part of YHVH. Remember? The Father is Yah and Jesus is the Weh.

Unsubstantiated claim, to say the least. Prove it please...can you do so without using linguistic gymnastics?

If you don't believe the words of Jesus, how would you believe me repeating them. Simple truth does not seem to work. Linguistic gymnastics might be the only way.

If Jesus is "part of" YHVH, then what is the Father's name that he hallows in the Lord's prayer?

It's so hallowed He doesn't mention it. Besides, the LORD magnifies His word above His name. Ps:138:2: Abd Jesus is the word made flesh.

Do you think the Father operates outside of His Son? I tell you no. Everything God has created is for and through His Son. Col:1:16:

Again you have missed the truth that the "the LORD our God is one God" quote from the Bible is the Father/Son union. How can Jesus be the Lord if He is not part of the LORD?

Simple, the same way he can be "Master"" Rabbi"...Lord, not LORD (YHVH) even the NT does not refer to him as LORD, all caps.

That's because He left the Father God to accomplish His mission on earth. He went back to the bosom of God. Together, they are the LORD our God.

So if one wants to worship Jesus, why not worship Jesus wholeheartedly, and entirely? Exclusively? and have a bold statement of faith, a Jesus Shahada/Shema?

Some people do. That would be better than trying to worship the Father without the Son.

That proves my point, that some Trinitarians when it comes right down to it choose the Son over the Father, and that is a violation of the First Commandment.

Not if the "trinitarian" recognizes the LORD our God is the Father/Son team.

Jesus is either ALL God, or not God at all. Seems to me one cannot be a Trinitarian and a true Monotheist at the same time.

Jesus said you could.
Jn:14:1: Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.[/b]

That is not to say to believe in Jesus the same way we believe in the Father. I doubt very much that Jesus was suggesting that, or putting himself as the Father's equal, especially when he says in the same Gospel that "the Father is greater than I"

.
We know God sent Jesus so God is greater. But Jesus said believe "IN" God and also believe "IN" me. That implies equality on a very high salvation level.

Eloihim is our Creator. Gen 1:1.(Hebrew) Eloihim is also a plural.

It might help if one understands the Father God as being the Source of all things and the Son, Jesus, being the Lord God of heaven and earth.

Jn:20:28: And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Elohim being plural is evidence of Jews moving from the Monaltry* of Moses, to pure Monotheism of Isaiah.

It could also be plural of majesty.

Or inclusiveness of all aspects of the Divine.

Or even God and the Angels.

It was almost certainly not to meant to be understood as the "Father and the Son.(Messiah).

Jews don't interpret it that way, and they wrote the book. Jesus himself gives no evidence that "Elohim" means "YHVH and the Messiah."

And the Thomas remark was just an exclamation.

I suppose. People will subscribe to a lot of things to deny the place Jesus has in the Godhead.

[Elijah John]

Hi Yahdough. I whittled down our comments a bit to better focus on some key points. Please feel free to bring them up again if you don't think I addressed them adequately.

If you reject Jesus as the Messiah then you reject the God who sent Him. If you love Jesus you love the Father who sent Him.

One can accept Jesus, even love Jesus as Messiah, without believing he is God. (please review above quote bold) Primitive Christians such as the Ebionites, did just that.

So how could anyone leave Jesus out of the salvation message and expect God to be with them?

If one follows Jesus teaching, that is not leaving Jesus out of the savation process. Even if one omits Paul's blood theology.

For one thing Jesus is part of YHVH. Remember? The Father is Yah and Jesus is the Weh.

Unsubstantiated claim, to say the least. Prove it please...can you do so without using linguistic gymnastics?

If you don't believe the words of Jesus,

FOUL! WAY overgeneralizing. Because I don't accept all the words attributed to Jesus does not mean I don't accept the words of Jesus. Also, because we disagree on the interpretation of Jesus words', does not mean I don't accept the words of Jesus.

how would you believe me repeating them. Simple truth does not seem to work. Linguistic gymnastics might be the only way.

Give it a try, and let the games begin! Please explain how "Yah" is the Father part, and "weh" is the Son part of the Divine name. How is your theory of "Weh" as the Son, "simple truth"?


Again, the LORD is YHVH, the name of the Father. There IS no name for the Father and the Son, collectively, even in Trinitarian theology. Unless, (in Trnitarian theology) it is "God", but "God" is not a name, it's a title.

So if one wants to worship Jesus, why not worship Jesus wholeheartedly, and entirely? Exclusively? and have a bold statement of faith, a Jesus Shahada/Shema?

Some people do. That would be better than trying to worship the Father without the Son.

That proves my point, that some Trinitarians when it comes right down to it choose the Son over the Father, and that is a violation of the First Commandment.

Not if the "trinitarian" recognizes the LORD our God is the Father/Son team.

That's a mighty big "IF" , Even most Trinitarians make the distinction beween LORD YHVH, and Lord Jesus. The Father alone is YHVH, and YHVH alone is God.

[YahDough]

If you reject Jesus as the Messiah then you reject the God who sent Him. If you love Jesus you love the Father who sent Him.

One can accept Jesus, even love Jesus as Messiah, without believing he is God. (please review above quote bold) Primitive Christians such as the Ebionites, did just that.

Yes. Jesus is not God the Father. He is the Lord Jesus Christ. But Jesus is still part of the Godhead of LORD, Genesis 1:1 does not say "In the beginning the Father created the heaven and the earth". The Creation was a joint effort of a plursl God: The Father as the Source and the Son as the "Administrator" of this infinate Source.

So how could anyone leave Jesus out of the salvation message and expect God to be with them?

If one follows Jesus teaching, that is not leaving Jesus out of the savation process. Even if one omits Paul's blood theology.

The "blood theology" as you call it is/was God's creational "plan'. It has been declared in the O.T. that the the life is in the blood and it is required for the atonement of the soul. We can't rewrite God's plan. But we can accept the new Covenent. We need the blood of Christ for forgiveness under that covenent..

For one thing Jesus is part of YHVH. Remember? The Father is Yah and Jesus is the Weh.

how would you believe me repeating them. Simple truth does not seem to work. Linguistic gymnastics might be the only way.

Give it a try, and let the games begin! Please explain how "Yah" is the Father part, and "weh" is the Son part of the Divine name. How is your theory of "Weh" as the Son, "simple truth"?

How much more simple can it get? A plural God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth and everything in it: God the Father/Source and Christ the Son/Lord. YahWeh is not just the Source. Somebody has to regulate the Source or it would be chaos.

Again, the LORD is YHVH, the name of the Father. There IS no name for the Father and the Son, collectively, even in Trinitarian theology. Unless, (in Trnitarian theology) it is "God", but "God" is not a name, it's a title.

And I maintain that the LORD and YHVH are both names of the Father/Son unity. Proof: Jesus called the Father Eloi when He was crucified. That is half the name of Eloihim, which is the name of our Creator in the Hebrew translation of Gen 1:1

So if one wants to worship Jesus, why not worship Jesus wholeheartedly, and entirely? Exclusively? and have a bold statement of faith, a Jesus Shahada/Shema?

Some people do. That would be better than trying to worship the Father without the Son.

That proves my point, that some Trinitarians when it comes right down to it choose the Son over the Father, and that is a violation of the First Commandment.

Not if the "trinitarian" recognizes the LORD our God is the Father/Son team.

That's a mighty big "IF" , Even most Trinitarians make the distinction beween LORD YHVH, and Lord Jesus. The Father alone is YHVH, and YHVH alone is God

.

No. The Father alone is Yah or Eloi. Together They are YHVH and Eloihim.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 8 by YahDough]

"Yah" is an abbreviation of YHVH, Yahovah, Jehovah, or Yahweh. The name of the Father. Where is the evidence that YHVH is the collective name for the Father and the Son?

YHVH through Isaiah states:

I am YHVH, that is MY Name,...

not "our" name.

Singular, not plural based on usage here and in many, many other occasions. Even the meaning of the Name is "I AM that I AM"...not "We are what We are"

You are on stronger ground when you claim that "Elohim" is a collective. But even there, I do not agree with the Trinitarian interpretation for the reasons I presented earlier in the thread.

So I ask you, if you claim to be a Monotheist, who is God? YHVH or Jesus? If you say "both" then that is Bi-Theism, or if you include the Holy Spirit as a third Person in the Godhead, that is Tri-Theism.

Either, way, it is not Monotheism, Trinitarian claims to the contrary not withstanding.

You still have not demonstrated that the "Weh" refers to Jesus, or that it is anything else but the second syllable in the Father's name.

[Monta]

[Replying to Elijah John]


"That is not to say to believe in Jesus the same way we believe in the Father. I doubt very much that Jesus was suggesting that, or putting himself as the Father's equal, especially when he says in the same Gospel that "the Father is greater than I". "

'Jesus' was born in time.

As to his humanity he embodied the Divinity in his very soul (the Father).

'The Father is greater than I'
Father is greater and Jesus as to His humanity humbly acknowledges it.

After the Resurrection the final and complete union with the Father (human and Divine) was accomplished - I am Alpha and the Omega.

We Christians pray to Jesus and through Jesus knowing very well that God has united the human to His Divine. God is One.
Trinity of attributes - Father, Son, the Holy Spirit.

The Lord's prayer: Our Father Who ...