What If...?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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theStudent
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What If...?

Post #1

Post by theStudent »

Currently, I am doing what was suggested by some on these forums.
I am researching information both for, and against evolution, and trust me - I am doing so objectively.
While I am still researching, I want to put this out, to hear the different views on it.

During my research I discovered that lately, just over the last decade or so, a lot of informations has been surfacing about fake fossils.
In fact it has now become common place for fossils sold at museums to be checked for genuineness.
I find this interesting.

Why now, is this happening?
Could it be that evidence as it always does, is now surfacing?

For example
Remember the dinosaur hoax - the one that was said to be put together using different bones?
It has recently been found out that it wasn't a hoax after all.
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/02/ ... ecies.html

That is quite interesting.

The fossils aren't the only things that were/are claimed to be fake.
There are the drawings, and pictures as well.
Right now, I am going through a very long document considered a case against some of Darwins picture illustrations.
But have you ever come across this one?

Pictures from the past powerfully shape current views of the world. In books, television programs, and websites, new images appear alongside others that have survived from decades ago. Among the most famous are drawings of embryos by the Darwinist Ernst Haeckel in which humans and other vertebrates begin identical, then diverge toward their adult forms. But these icons of evolution are notorious, too: soon after their publication in 1868, a colleague alleged fraud, and Haeckels many enemies have repeated the charge ever since. His embryos nevertheless became a textbook staple until, in 1997, a biologist accused him again, and creationist advocates of intelligent design forced his figures out. How could the most controversial pictures in the history of science have become some of the most widely seen?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Haeckel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haec ... eks4-6.jpg
English: The pictures illustrate Ernst Haeckel's biogenetic law. In the beginning embryos of different species look remarkable similar, later different characteristics develop. The images initiated controversies and charges of fraud.

All of this lends to a possibility.
Consdering the fact that fossils can be faked, we must accept the fact that Darwin, and other scientists could have lied.

My question here, isn't whether he did lie or not, but rather, Does this not place evolutionists in the same position as the Christians they claim are believing in fables?

Consider:
Christians accept the Bible, as the word of God.
Here are just a few facts about the Bible.
With estimated total sales of over 5 billion copies, the Bible is widely considered to be the best-selling book of all time.
It has estimated annual sales of 100 million copies.
It has been a major influence on literature and history, especially in the West where the Gutenberg Bible was the first mass-printed book.
It was the first book ever printed using movable type.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible

Archaeological findings of the Dead Sea Scrolls, also called the Qumran Caves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

The evidence is there however, that the book we hold in our hand today (the Bible), contains information written centuries ago.

Atheist call the book fables - the reason I have yet to find out.
Maybe one of the reasons is that they have not seen God, or seen him write any book - whatever.
So they claim that Christians' belief in them and what they present is blind faith, and belief in stories.

However, is this not the case with those who accept the theory of evolution, where all they have to go by, is what scientists claim to be evidence?

By the way...
No one, to this day have seen them recreate the theories.
Any data they give you on species, is usually what already existed (at least what I have come across so far).
As regards other claims, all we have are pictures, and claimed fossils, which could have been edited.

So evolutionists are really believing what men claim - without any substantial proof of their claim.
How is this different to believing a book?

And what if Darwin, and others lied?


I'm just interested in you different opinions and thoughts, on the above.
Here is a nice short video of someone's opinion. Reasonable too.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #151

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 148 by Willum]
Willum wrote:There are reports, albeit rare and disgusting reports of human chip hybrid people. Humans can only give them birth, because the birth canal isn't wide enough the other way around.

Does this bollix your theory? Or will you just take the easy route of denial?
For the sake of argument, let not go down the path of denial, and say for hypothetical purposes, it's true. What does it mean?
I'm trying to figure out the question.
What's true?
That only humans can impregnate animals, or that a half-human, half-chimpanzee can be born, or would I accept it if it happened?

Disgusting as it is...
None of the above would convince me that we evolved.
But it's not in the same way, that you wouldn't be convinced that man was created, and chimps were created according to their kind.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #152

Post by Kenisaw »

theStudent wrote:
Arguing that the fossils represented the "missing link" between apes and humans
Despite Dubois' argument, few accepted that Java Man was a transitional form between apes and humans. Some dismissed the fossils as apes and others as modern humans, whereas many scientists considered Java Man as a primitive side branch of evolution not related to modern humans at all. In the 1930s Dubois made the claim that Pithecanthropus was built like a "giant gibbon", a much misinterpreted attempt by Dubois to prove that it was the "missing link".
Dubois's central claim was that Pithecanthropus was a transitional form between apes and humans, a so-called "missing link". Many disagreed. Some critics claimed that the bones were those of an upright walking ape, or that they belonged to a primitive human. This judgment made sense at a time when an evolutionary view of humanity had not yet been widely accepted, and scientists tended to view hominid fossils as racial variants of modern humans rather than as ancestral forms.
After Dubois let a number of scientists examine the fossils in a series of conferences held in Europe in the 1890s, they started to agree that Java Man may be a transitional form after all, but most of them thought of it as "an extinct side branch" of the human tree that had indeed descended from apes, but not evolved into humans. This interpretation eventually imposed itself and remained dominant until the 1940s.
Which part of this information says it was proven?
I see that it was accepted, after a few meetings. What do you see?
I see you looking in the wrong place. Java Man didn't settle the Africa verses Asia question. Genetics played a vital role in that question, along with fossilized and archaeological data. I assumed too much about your knowledge base. But I realize you may not have looked into the Africa verses Asia question past your Java Man search. If you look up early human migration you should find a good range of info at your fingertips.

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Post #153

Post by Kenisaw »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 127 by Kenisaw]

You know Kenisaw
All I can see you doing is posting comments against what I post.
My post contain links from Wikipedia - a well accepted website, as well as other links.
I have used information from other sources to argue my points.

You however, have not posted any information, with a link to backup any counter-arguement.
Are you expecting that because it comes from Kenisaw, I should accept it as gospel?

And you are the one suggesting that I have nothing, and know nothing.
Well it looks to me the other way around.

How about some evidence to back up you sermons, so filled with rebukes.
Links. You mean from "questions on Islam"? Those "well accepted websites"? How about all the creationist sites in your quote mining extravaganza over in Random Ramblings? Posting links doesn't mean much if the information is garbage, Student. You've posted links that claimed abiogenesis is part of the theory of evolution, which is utter nonsense.

I've told you time and again not to take my word for it, and to look it up and verify it yourself. I tell everyone that, and I know you've read that in my posts before. I guess I'm tying to encourage you to spread your horizons and teach yourself how to be a skeptic.

I do post quotes, properly referenced, from books and journals from time to time. I know you've seen these as well. If you don't believe a word of what I write then so be it. I could care less to be brutally honest. If you want to walk around for the rest of your life getting your evolution analysis from "questions on Islam" be my guest, but you can't ever say I didn't try to help you understand the actual science instead of creationist propaganda...
And why do you keep bringing up God?
What does God have to do with this?
Questions On Islam. Historical evidence for the Resurrection. Definitions for "evolutionism" which wiki states that the the "term is seldom used in the scientific community; to say someone is a scientist implies acceptance of evolutionary views, unless specifically noted otherwise. In the creation-evolution controversy, creationists often call those who accept the validity of the modern evolutionary synthesis "evolutionists" and the theory itself as "evolutionism." Creationist quote mining sites in Random Ramblings....

I'm a little disappointed that you think I am such a big idiot that I can't see what you have been trying to do on this website....

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Post #154

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 151 by Kenisaw]
abiogenesis
Ah
Thanks for reminding me.
That chemical evolution.
Am I right?
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #155

Post by Bust Nak »

[Replying to post 143 by theStudent]
Actual observed instances of evolution should be more than enough proof? The latest darling in evolutionary science being Lenski's long term evolution experiment on E.coli.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_l ... experiment
So the baboon originated from the branch, but yet the common ancestor is not the origin of the species on each branch?
That's not what I am saying. The baboon originated from the branch AND the common ancestor is the origin of the branches themselves.
That's something you're going to have to break down like baby food, so I can get it - cause right now I don't.
The origin of species is the common ancestor.
The origin of life is the origin of the common ancestor.

These are two different topic. Darwin named his book correctly because he wanted to talk about the common ancestor. He didn't name his book "The origin of life" because that was not what he wanted to talk about. Nor should you expect an explanation for the origin of life when the topic is on the origin of species.

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Re: What If...?

Post #156

Post by Clownboat »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 135 by arian]
The Student wrote:I never really connected the elite with these scientific doctrines, but then, I don't really think of the elite.
I basically just see them as puppets in Satan's control, puppeteering the rest of Satan's world.
I would like to point out that you are in the science forum claiming that there is some elite group of people out there that are control by the lead villain in the religion you have chosen or been indoctrinated to believe is true.

Some info that some might find relevant:
Insights into the Personalities of Conspiracy Theorists
Psychologists find that distrust of authority and low agreeableness are among factors underlying the willingness to believe.

A study in 2012 by Michael J. Wood and his colleagues at the University of Kent found that those who believed Bin Laden was dead prior to American intervention are more likely to believe hes currently alive. Similarly, authors found that those who think Princess Diana faked her death are more likely to believe she was murdered. So, which is it? Dead or alive? Research suggests that such contradictory narratives are linked by an underlying distrust of authority. Among conspiracy theorists, it seems, this suspicion is strong enough to overpower traditional life-death logic.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... theorists/

So these elite... Puppets of a Satan you say? That's what we should make of these elites that want you to believe in evolution?
Can you show that you are not conspiracy minded? You have already gained the support of arian here after all. Don't fault me for this observation, I may just be a puppet of your Satan too. Ya, that's what you should probably go with.
:roll:

Since you cannot show a Satan, or that there is a Satan that puppeteers humans, perhaps it would be wise to go with the more reasonable scenario, that these what you call elites are just fallible humans like you and I. Some smarter, some not. Why subscribe to some puppeteer'n villain? Is it because you have preconceived religions beliefs you need to protect.

People refused to believe that the earth wasn't the center of the galaxy for this very same reason. Perhaps, like how the earth not being the center is now accepted in religious circles, evolution will someday be in a similar spot.
I can hear it now... "my god used evolution to arrive at his end goal, man".
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Re: What If...?

Post #157

Post by Clownboat »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 140 by Clownboat]
lownboat wrote:Arian and The Student, like in all other anti evolution threads to date just cannot argue against it without quote mining or offering arguments that have already been falsified.
Can you blame us if we are not seeing the falsifications?
There is no one else to blame. It IS your fault. I have pointed out many times that all you need to do is find a fossil that is out of place. I even provided the example of finding a rabbit in the Cambrian era.
Who else is at fault for not seeing this simple way to falsify evolution? I could have also pointed out that we humans would need to find a fused chromosome in order for human evolution to be true. Guess what? Once we were able to look, we found it, so I guess that one is off the table. Another prediction of evolution that has been shown to be true.
Maybe someone needs to provide those for us. Hint hint. ;)
Any fossil out of place. Hint hint.
It's probably the same reason you can't see the verifications to support the Bible's reliability. Perhaps we didn't provide enough. :)
I was a born again, spirit filled, tongue talking Christian for 2 decades. This just does not resonate with me.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Post #158

Post by Kenisaw »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 151 by Kenisaw]
abiogenesis
Ah
Thanks for reminding me.
That chemical evolution.
Am I right?
Right, some people use that phrase. Where is that contained in the theory of evolution of life first proposed by Darwin? It isn't. Same word, different meaning. "Chemical evolution" is just the chemical reactions needed to go from simpler organic molecules to more complex ones.

I have a tool called a plane that I use to smooth out wood. I've also flown on a plane to various locations. Just because they are spelled the same and pronounced the same doesn't mean their context is the same.

Hopefully this clears up your misunderstanding about a word being used in two different ways...

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Post #159

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 149 by theStudent]

Hey tS, this is the first time I feel we have actually spoken to each other.

So, if a humanzee wouldn't convince you, what would?

I do find you have a major mis-conception based on a post in another forum. You seem to think, that like the Bible, science only gets one chance to get it right.

That's like expecting a child to get all his math problems right. Science is a process of successive approximation. You get better, you learn more, you get better... etc.. So, if paleontologists got it wrong the first time, well, have they improved? Do they ascribe to the same principles and conclusions the first one did? No. What about now? It is very well agreed to, now, with few new proposals and refinements.

Finally, you mocked the humanzee, however. You must consider, there is more, better and immediately analogous evidence for the humanzee then anything in the Bible. We can do a comparison if you like. But I think you must admit it is true.

How do you stand on that?

Respectfully,

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Post #160

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 153 by Bust Nak]
Bust Nak wrote:Actual observed instances of evolution should be more than enough proof? The latest darling in evolutionary science being Lenski's long term evolution experiment on E.coli.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_l ... experiment
Another link. Cool. 8-)
Thanks. I'll give it a look.
Bust Nak wrote:The origin of species is the common ancestor.
The origin of life is the origin of the common ancestor.
That does not make an ounce of sense.
Come on.
The baby thing was not to be taken literally.
I'm way older than that Bust Nak :(
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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