What If...?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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theStudent
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What If...?

Post #1

Post by theStudent »

Currently, I am doing what was suggested by some on these forums.
I am researching information both for, and against evolution, and trust me - I am doing so objectively.
While I am still researching, I want to put this out, to hear the different views on it.

During my research I discovered that lately, just over the last decade or so, a lot of informations has been surfacing about fake fossils.
In fact it has now become common place for fossils sold at museums to be checked for genuineness.
I find this interesting.

Why now, is this happening?
Could it be that evidence as it always does, is now surfacing?

For example
Remember the dinosaur hoax - the one that was said to be put together using different bones?
It has recently been found out that it wasn't a hoax after all.
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/02/ ... ecies.html

That is quite interesting.

The fossils aren't the only things that were/are claimed to be fake.
There are the drawings, and pictures as well.
Right now, I am going through a very long document considered a case against some of Darwins picture illustrations.
But have you ever come across this one?

Pictures from the past powerfully shape current views of the world. In books, television programs, and websites, new images appear alongside others that have survived from decades ago. Among the most famous are drawings of embryos by the Darwinist Ernst Haeckel in which humans and other vertebrates begin identical, then diverge toward their adult forms. But these icons of evolution are notorious, too: soon after their publication in 1868, a colleague alleged fraud, and Haeckels many enemies have repeated the charge ever since. His embryos nevertheless became a textbook staple until, in 1997, a biologist accused him again, and creationist advocates of intelligent design forced his figures out. How could the most controversial pictures in the history of science have become some of the most widely seen?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Haeckel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haec ... eks4-6.jpg
English: The pictures illustrate Ernst Haeckel's biogenetic law. In the beginning embryos of different species look remarkable similar, later different characteristics develop. The images initiated controversies and charges of fraud.

All of this lends to a possibility.
Consdering the fact that fossils can be faked, we must accept the fact that Darwin, and other scientists could have lied.

My question here, isn't whether he did lie or not, but rather, Does this not place evolutionists in the same position as the Christians they claim are believing in fables?

Consider:
Christians accept the Bible, as the word of God.
Here are just a few facts about the Bible.
With estimated total sales of over 5 billion copies, the Bible is widely considered to be the best-selling book of all time.
It has estimated annual sales of 100 million copies.
It has been a major influence on literature and history, especially in the West where the Gutenberg Bible was the first mass-printed book.
It was the first book ever printed using movable type.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible

Archaeological findings of the Dead Sea Scrolls, also called the Qumran Caves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

The evidence is there however, that the book we hold in our hand today (the Bible), contains information written centuries ago.

Atheist call the book fables - the reason I have yet to find out.
Maybe one of the reasons is that they have not seen God, or seen him write any book - whatever.
So they claim that Christians' belief in them and what they present is blind faith, and belief in stories.

However, is this not the case with those who accept the theory of evolution, where all they have to go by, is what scientists claim to be evidence?

By the way...
No one, to this day have seen them recreate the theories.
Any data they give you on species, is usually what already existed (at least what I have come across so far).
As regards other claims, all we have are pictures, and claimed fossils, which could have been edited.

So evolutionists are really believing what men claim - without any substantial proof of their claim.
How is this different to believing a book?

And what if Darwin, and others lied?


I'm just interested in you different opinions and thoughts, on the above.
Here is a nice short video of someone's opinion. Reasonable too.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #181

Post by H.sapiens »

Kenisaw wrote:
theStudent wrote:
Again, why do many scientist not accept the evidence?

If these quote are incorect - I apologize, and they can be striken. I will personally do so.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1997/01 ... of-demons/
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/na ... ontin.html
Richard Charles "Dick" Lewontin is an American evolutionary biologist, geneticist, academic and social commentator. Wikipedia
Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.
The primary problem is not to provide the public with the knowledge of how far it is to the nearest star and what genes are made of, for that vast project is, in its entirety, hopeless. Rather, the problem is to get them to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth.
There you have it, I might say, "Straight out of [one of] the horse's mouth."
I don't need to verify what I said then.
Truth be told.
How does a quote from one person equate to, as you call it, "many scientists do not accept the evidence"? Every poll I've ever seen says at least 97% of all scientists accept evolution as a valid scientific theory on the diversity of life on Earth (religioustolerance.org has some historical data showing trends of this as well by the way). You can keep quote mining all you want, that percentage says it all.

And, as usual, you don't argue about the morphological studies on fossils, or the geological data on the age of the rocks, or the genetic data showing how things are related. No, you post quotes and link us to articles that are pseudo-science or that you use in the wrong context because you don't understand them. But you "love sceince"...

Speaking of Origin of Species
I have another question.
Why did Darwin name his book Origin of Species if he is not talking about origin of life on earth.
Why don't you read it and find out for yourself?
What is the origin of species?
Isn't that referring to where the species came from?
So is he referring to where the species evolved from, as in the branch?
Or is he referring to the common ancestor?

If it's referring to for example the branch the baboon evolved from, can that not be called the origin of the baboon's life?
If it's referring to the common ancestor, can that not be called the origin of all life on earth?

Kenisaw.
You helped me out before.
Could you help me out with this one?
If you do not honestly know what "Origin of Species" means as a title of Darwin's book, why have you been trying to disprove the scientific theory of evolution over the past few months by posting quote mines and giving us links to "Questions On Islam"??? You are debating something that you don't even comprehend?

I find that incredible...

Read his book, and then get back to us.
Lewontin is a friend of mine, well ... someone who I know from meetings whom I've socialized with at such functions. He does not speak for me, he does not speak for science in large part or small ... he only speaks for himself. He's funny, very quick, very bright and a Marxist. He is often very incitement when it comes to evolution but sometimes (as in the quote you posted) he gets a bit strange, think of it as a problem similar to Francis Collins' evangelism or Ken Miller's Catholicism.

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Post #182

Post by arian »

help3434 wrote: Is there any evolution debate on this forum that doesn't go like this? A creationist says he doesn't believe in evolution. He then tries to refute evolution by attacking a strawman that contradicts what the actual theory of evolution says and shows that he doesn't even understand the basics. This is pointed out by a half a dozen posters or so time after time, but to no avail as the creationist keeps strawmanning evolution and supporting his argument with quote mines and citations from crackpot YEC "scientists".

It would be a refreshing change of pace if a creationist actually criticized the actual theory of evolution.
As soon as I see an actual scientific "theory" on evolution (speciation, .. one species turning into a completely different specie where they can no longer reproduce) Then there would be something to criticize, like if a scientists observation of a crocodile turning into a duck was not properly documented or something.

But come on, there is NOTHING to criticize on a scientific level, Evolution of species evolving by no will or plan from a single celled bacteria is just a story no different than J. M. Barrie's Peter Pan. As far as a good story, yes, the Evolution and the Big-Bang stories are very good, .. very imaginative, and since it is evolving, I can't wait for the sequel where now they are going into Star Gates using that cool looking Tesseract, and that AllSpark cube that gives life (consciousness/intelligence) to a bunch of scrap metal is just awesome. But let's not get carried away like 666CERN, Intel, and all the opening-celebrations that are going on in the whole world, it is crazy I tell you.

So yea, as soon as you guys have some actual scientific theories about your observations, let me know. But PLEEEASEEE, .. don't start off with this "Long, Long Time ago, millions and billions of years ago, .." line, .. it doesn't even sound like science.

God bless you my friend.
There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root.

Henry D. Thoreau

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Post #183

Post by H.sapiens »

arian wrote:
help3434 wrote: Is there any evolution debate on this forum that doesn't go like this? A creationist says he doesn't believe in evolution. He then tries to refute evolution by attacking a strawman that contradicts what the actual theory of evolution says and shows that he doesn't even understand the basics. This is pointed out by a half a dozen posters or so time after time, but to no avail as the creationist keeps strawmanning evolution and supporting his argument with quote mines and citations from crackpot YEC "scientists".

It would be a refreshing change of pace if a creationist actually criticized the actual theory of evolution.
As soon as I see an actual scientific "theory" on evolution (speciation, .. one species turning into a completely different specie where they can no longer reproduce) Then there would be something to criticize, like if a scientists observation of a crocodile turning into a duck was not properly documented or something.

But come on, there is NOTHING to criticize on a scientific level, Evolution of species evolving by no will or plan from a single celled bacteria is just a story no different than J. M. Barrie's Peter Pan. As far as a good story, yes, the Evolution and the Big-Bang stories are very good, .. very imaginative, and since it is evolving, I can't wait for the sequel where now they are going into Star Gates using that cool looking Tesseract, and that AllSpark cube that gives life (consciousness/intelligence) to a bunch of scrap metal is just awesome. But let's not get carried away like 666CERN, Intel, and all the opening-celebrations that are going on in the whole world, it is crazy I tell you.

So yea, as soon as you guys have some actual scientific theories about your observations, let me know. But PLEEEASEEE, .. don't start off with this "Long, Long Time ago, millions and billions of years ago, .." line, .. it doesn't even sound like science.

God bless you my friend.
Ring Species demonstrate this.

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Post #184

Post by Willum »

What about whale feet?

They have found a continuity of fossils and more modern bones that evolved into whales.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrar ... vograms_03

and even though is SA, this should put it to bed for our educated readers.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... eationist/

Which leads to the humanzee again.

It has better and analogous proof than the Bible, yet you trust one and not the other.
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.

You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.

To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight

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Post #185

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to arian]
like if a scientists observation of a crocodile turning into a duck was not properly documented or something.
Hi Kirk Cameron (or are you Ray Comfort?), how ya doing? Sorry to say, but as you would well know, being you, the croco-duck is something MADE UP by creationists such as yourself to try to disprove evolution. Since evolution NOT ONCE predicts a crocoduck, this is the straw man of the century.
I can't wait for the sequel where now they are going into Star Gates using that cool looking Tesseract, and that AllSpark cube that gives life (consciousness/intelligence) to a bunch of scrap metal is just awesome.
Cool. You compare real scientific findings with buzzwords from famous TV shows and comic books. Showing you simply have no understanding of actual scientific literature.
But PLEEEASEEE, .. don't start off with this "Long, Long Time ago, millions and billions of years ago, .." line, .. it doesn't even sound like science.
But your crocoduck is?
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Post #186

Post by Willum »

[Replying to arian]

Yeah, science predicts no croco-duck. What would be the survival advantage? however, how about Brassica oleracea?

Mustu-cabbageobrusspotso-man this plant is a lot of plants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brassica_oleracea

B. olereracsea can be bred to do exactly what you want, have a father that's a mustard, and a child that's a cabbage.

Let me guess... "But that's only a plant..."

Well how about a salamander or frog that starts as a tadpole and becomes different kinds of life as it grows?
That's wrong, but it is what you want to see isn't it? How about if "scientists" used this bare-faced approach you all take, and said, "there you are, it's proof and you can see it!" You'd have nothing to say, because you don't have the background to disprove it.

Or... just what do you want to see as proof? We don't see crocodiles becoming ducks, but we see plankton becoming crabs.

So all the physical observables exist in nature that counter your specious objections.

Convinced now?
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.

You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.

To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight

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Re: What If...?

Post #187

Post by arian »

PghPanther wrote:
theStudent wrote: Currently, I am doing what was suggested by some on these forums.
I am researching information both for, and against evolution, and trust me - I am doing so objectively.
While I am still researching, I want to put this out, to hear the different views on it.
You are clueless in understanding the provisional process of the scientific method.
Scientific method? Which is what? In science we observe nature, see if the taxonomy is correct when identifying and learning all we can about Gods creation. identifying that our and animals flesh is made up of cells, which are made up of atoms, is understanding the complexity of Gods Intelligent Design. It is not "seeing" evolution in process, they are observing the complete product.

I don't mind being compared to a 5 year old in my thinking, I guess only a 5-year old could understand the absolute meaning of "nothing", .. that it is exactly that; "nothing", where the adults, even professors of well know universities can't comprehend this "nothing" and blurt out their proud new interpretation in books you now get on Amazon for a low, low price. (Buy two "Universes from nothing" and get the third universe for free. lol)
PghPanther wrote:It doesn't matter for what reason and why a person might try to fake or lie their way into scientific data........the process of the scientific method will by default weed out all the nonsense and background noise over time..........
You mean weed out the opposition to BB-Evolution over time, and we have seen a huge increase in scientists deaths lately as they are bringing in the One World Religion and its only scientifically acceptable "god"; Lucifer whose scientific name is '666' (Please see 666CERN, or ask Lady Gaga for more information.)
PghPanther wrote:Science the process leveraged to establish provisional truth claims will always end up in the direction of where the evidence leads them.......not the other way around even if it manages to get side stepped temporarily by some humans lacking integrity in their research.
OK, so where is the integrity of a world renowned science organization like 666CERN in celebrating their claimed achievements in their 6LHC Temple with the god of death Kali and doing the Kali-death-dance? I don't know, but to me that shows a lack in scientific integrity no? But hey, I'm just a 5 year old so what do I know, .. right? Maybe I'm not seeing the "science" in all this since I'm just a kid trying to better understand "Infinity" from a scientific perspective!?
PghPanther wrote:You are wasting your time putting Biblical absolute truth claims up against the earned provisional claims of science.
There is NO disagreement between "the earned provisional claims of science" and the Bible, never was there any disagreement.
Oh, you mean the tens of thousands of "religious" interpretation of the Bible with Sci-Fientology, of course, since these are two conflicting religions aimed at controlling the minds of humanity, and their money.
PghPanther wrote:It the reason why for the past 500 years science has taken us out of the dark ages of centuries of a Biblical based world view and placed us on the path of human progress ever since while faith based view are left holding an empty jar of hope/promises..........
Oh pleaseeee, .. : "It the reason why for the past 500 years science has taken us out of the dark ages of centuries of a Biblical based world view and placed us on the path of human progress"

Ahh, the human progress, none of this would have been possible 500 years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MP2ar1nlpI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFxVd2tO-II

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGhphEqmrHU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IopbQRIzDC8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS3WvKKSpKI

I did not include the mass-murder being done in the name of Cancer Treatment, sustainable development, GMO foods, wars created just to test out weapons, new gasses, viruses, the most sophisticated microwave guns, drones, poison in foods at restaurants, cancers and brain damage caused by MK-ultra video games, cell phone use the list goes on and on as man moves away from the 2,000 year old teachings of Christ, that BB-Evolutionists compare with religious fanaticism, where evolutionists/atheists are opening up mega-churches that outright mock our Lord Jesus Christ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYZVu6VPGUo

New updated version of the Kali-dance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYxeTjrckl0
There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root.

Henry D. Thoreau

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Post #188

Post by arian »

H.sapiens wrote:
arian wrote:
help3434 wrote: Is there any evolution debate on this forum that doesn't go like this? A creationist says he doesn't believe in evolution. He then tries to refute evolution by attacking a strawman that contradicts what the actual theory of evolution says and shows that he doesn't even understand the basics. This is pointed out by a half a dozen posters or so time after time, but to no avail as the creationist keeps strawmanning evolution and supporting his argument with quote mines and citations from crackpot YEC "scientists".

It would be a refreshing change of pace if a creationist actually criticized the actual theory of evolution.
As soon as I see an actual scientific "theory" on evolution (speciation, .. one species turning into a completely different specie where they can no longer reproduce) Then there would be something to criticize, like if a scientists observation of a crocodile turning into a duck was not properly documented or something.

But come on, there is NOTHING to criticize on a scientific level, Evolution of species evolving by no will or plan from a single celled bacteria is just a story no different than J. M. Barrie's Peter Pan. As far as a good story, yes, the Evolution and the Big-Bang stories are very good, .. very imaginative, and since it is evolving, I can't wait for the sequel where now they are going into Star Gates using that cool looking Tesseract, and that AllSpark cube that gives life (consciousness/intelligence) to a bunch of scrap metal is just awesome. But let's not get carried away like 666CERN, Intel, and all the opening-celebrations that are going on in the whole world, it is crazy I tell you.

So yea, as soon as you guys have some actual scientific theories about your observations, let me know. But PLEEEASEEE, .. don't start off with this "Long, Long Time ago, millions and billions of years ago, .." line, .. it doesn't even sound like science.

God bless you my friend.
Ring Species demonstrate this.
By golly they sure do, .. so a croc CAN become a duck after all, just got to move them around a bit. How many Sci-Fientists have observed species turning into completely different species? Any videos? How did this happen, one day one gull lays an egg and refuse to be any part of it's own species, flies off and mingles with other non-related gulls until she/he finds a partner who she can reproduce with?

How does this happen and how do Sci-Fientists recognize it is happening?

I told you I know in Africa there are all kinds of different species living in the same environment, eating the same food, floated off millions and billions of years ago on the same tectonic ship, .. and all have 4.2 billion years of evolution under their belt. From single celled bacteria, to humans, and no gorilla or monkey has EVER been observed speciating into a human.

Look at all the Sci-Fientology books, papers, videos, children stories on evolution, movies obviously sending out the message, Dawkins presentations, .. it all shows monkeys evolving into humans, yet claim humans are still evolving apes, and say over and over again that "No arian, apes do NOT evolve into humans" even with millions upon millions of books, videos, movies showing the very opposite.

Come on, WHAT is the message here especially Disney's animal World, be honest?

Here in case you are not allowed to speak it, just send me an emoticon nodding a yes if you agree:

"Man is a RESULT of PURPOSELESS mutation that did not have him in mind. He is an animal worse off than apes, since apes evolved to apes, but man couldn't even do that, so after 4.2 billion years he is still just a wannabe ape, still just evolving.

He has no mind of his own, but what he thinks is a mind is actually his brains reaction to some chemicals that have been passed down by DNA over millions and billions of years of environmental effect and junk-food that evolved all the way from the single celled bacteria ancestors, than rats and so on.

From bacteria we see on the oceans floors, to the apes we see at the office, and zoos, chemical reactions that's it.
Free will? Dawkins laughs at that silly mutant notion as I have seen him do on different occasions as he talked to his German Sci-Fientist brothers; "man still thinks he has free will, he, he, he!"

Also words, critical words like "nothing", "Infinite", "Eternal", "Evolution- in a sense that it gets better and more complex" are completely distorted.

So here, man is a mindless animal that doesn't even fit in in any specific animal category since it is still evolving. An ape maybe, .. but not an ape, an animal, but yet not always considered an animal especially when going into supermarkets that has the "no animals allowed" sign, these mutants just walk right in with spasming noises they pass to each other.

No mind, but spasmic reactions from his brain firing off all kinds of sparks that the mutant "thinks/imagines" as reasoning, that he is actually communicating when in reality it is no different than an acid high. Actually we are told that by testing acid is one of the PROOF's that we have no mind, but that it is just chemical reactions creating electrical sparks causing weird things to our mouth, tongue and lungs.

No wonder other animals are freaked out by the man-animal mutant's weird noises, it just ain't right. No other animal understands it, even our rat ancestors and apes are terrified when this lip-movements making those weird noises happen.

These unexplained brain-chemicals have distanced other fellow apes from the mutating ape so much so, that for millions of years they were kept locked in caves at night to give some rest to ALL the other animals from these mutants "mouth-spasms" and the weird noises coming out from their throats (which today they call preaching), so the rest of the apes can enjoy the beautiful starlit nights.

It all seems like some conspiracy against our loving Infinite Creator "I Am"??

Naaaww, .. my fingers are just spasming these words on the keyboard, the result of millions and billions of years of Evolution.

Live long and speciate my fellow mutants, one day we will become apes, I just know it. All we have to do is reduce the spasm's in our brain, and Obama-care is working on that as we speak! Look, already happening, zombies!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP_5NLiAn4M
There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root.

Henry D. Thoreau

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Post #189

Post by Mr.Badham »

[Replying to post 185 by arian]

I can't help but agree with about 85% of what you wrote. 0% of the tone though. Very sarcastic. I thought you sounded... kinda.... not like a smart person, to be completely honest. No offence. You seemed to get the gist of a lot of what evolution is and how it works, but unable to grasp a lot of the nuance. Plus, you're religious.... so, that doesn't help with your.... ability to grasp a lot of the nuance.

Have you ever been to a farm where the owners have a dog that has never, not been tied up, and it's not friendly, so it won't let you go within the area that it can move with the chain? And the more unfriendly it becomes, the less people are likely to go near it, and the unfortunate thing is, the less people go near it, the more unfriendly it becomes. It's called a "Catch 22".

Consider religion your chain. If you're always at the end of it barking, no one will even try to untie you. You gotta relax a little, let people in. Hear what they have to say (Pet your belly).

I'm sure from your perspective, looking out, you like that no one comes in your space, but consider for once our perspective looking in. WTF is wrong with that guy? I can see you've read a little. I can tell you even understand most of it, but that stupid chain around your neck keeps yanking you back just as you're about to find freedom.

You're institutionalized. You like the chain. You don't want it to let go!! That's why you say obviously incorrect statements about how humans aren't apes, or that we're the only ones still evolving. I can tell you've read enough and understand enough to know these statements are wrong. So why make them? The chain. The chain keeps pulling you back.

Unlike the farmer's dog, you have the ability to set yourself free.

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Post #190

Post by theStudent »

Bust Nak wrote:
theStudent wrote:
Bust Nak wrote:The origin of species is the common ancestor.
The origin of life is the origin of the common ancestor.
That does not make an ounce of sense.
Let me try something else then.

I am tasked with writing an essay on "The origin of the United States of America." Should I be writing about the colonial effort and subsequence revolutionary wars, or would you expect the essay to talk about the formation of Great Britain (and maybe include the other significant players like the French Republic?)

I would say it is the former, the existence of Britain taken for granted, its origin is beyond the scope of the essay. The origin of major European powers is analogous to the origin of life, the origin of USA is analogous to the origin of species.
Hurray!
I give you an A...
For using an example in conjunction with your statements.

I decided to do my own research, which usually suuplies me with the specific answers to my questions - rather than going in circles.
What's are species? Are they life forms?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species
A species is often defined as the largest group of organisms in which two individuals are capable of reproducing fertile offspring, typically using sexual reproduction.
Does this involve the three main groups, or "domains," of life?
Is the common ancestor a species?
Hence rephrase, my question.
Even if Darwin is not referring to what came before the common ancestor, or how the common ancestor came, is it not still the same as origin of life on earth - after the common ancestor?

All I am saying is that if you agree to this
If it's referring to, for example, the branch the baboon evolved from, can that not be called the origin of the baboon's life?
then should the above not be true?

Isn't it the same as the common ancestor being many, so that they had to define them - last universal common ancestor (LUCA), or cenancestor, or progenote - referring to the first;
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cenancestor
and most recent common ancestor (MRCA), or last common ancestor (LCA) or the equivalent term concestor?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_rece ... n_ancestor

See what confusion they continue to create, in their effort to defy reason?
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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