What If...?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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theStudent
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What If...?

Post #1

Post by theStudent »

Currently, I am doing what was suggested by some on these forums.
I am researching information both for, and against evolution, and trust me - I am doing so objectively.
While I am still researching, I want to put this out, to hear the different views on it.

During my research I discovered that lately, just over the last decade or so, a lot of informations has been surfacing about fake fossils.
In fact it has now become common place for fossils sold at museums to be checked for genuineness.
I find this interesting.

Why now, is this happening?
Could it be that evidence as it always does, is now surfacing?

For example
Remember the dinosaur hoax - the one that was said to be put together using different bones?
It has recently been found out that it wasn't a hoax after all.
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/02/ ... ecies.html

That is quite interesting.

The fossils aren't the only things that were/are claimed to be fake.
There are the drawings, and pictures as well.
Right now, I am going through a very long document considered a case against some of Darwins picture illustrations.
But have you ever come across this one?

Pictures from the past powerfully shape current views of the world. In books, television programs, and websites, new images appear alongside others that have survived from decades ago. Among the most famous are drawings of embryos by the Darwinist Ernst Haeckel in which humans and other vertebrates begin identical, then diverge toward their adult forms. But these icons of evolution are notorious, too: soon after their publication in 1868, a colleague alleged fraud, and Haeckels many enemies have repeated the charge ever since. His embryos nevertheless became a textbook staple until, in 1997, a biologist accused him again, and creationist advocates of intelligent design forced his figures out. How could the most controversial pictures in the history of science have become some of the most widely seen?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Haeckel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haec ... eks4-6.jpg
English: The pictures illustrate Ernst Haeckel's biogenetic law. In the beginning embryos of different species look remarkable similar, later different characteristics develop. The images initiated controversies and charges of fraud.

All of this lends to a possibility.
Consdering the fact that fossils can be faked, we must accept the fact that Darwin, and other scientists could have lied.

My question here, isn't whether he did lie or not, but rather, Does this not place evolutionists in the same position as the Christians they claim are believing in fables?

Consider:
Christians accept the Bible, as the word of God.
Here are just a few facts about the Bible.
With estimated total sales of over 5 billion copies, the Bible is widely considered to be the best-selling book of all time.
It has estimated annual sales of 100 million copies.
It has been a major influence on literature and history, especially in the West where the Gutenberg Bible was the first mass-printed book.
It was the first book ever printed using movable type.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible

Archaeological findings of the Dead Sea Scrolls, also called the Qumran Caves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

The evidence is there however, that the book we hold in our hand today (the Bible), contains information written centuries ago.

Atheist call the book fables - the reason I have yet to find out.
Maybe one of the reasons is that they have not seen God, or seen him write any book - whatever.
So they claim that Christians' belief in them and what they present is blind faith, and belief in stories.

However, is this not the case with those who accept the theory of evolution, where all they have to go by, is what scientists claim to be evidence?

By the way...
No one, to this day have seen them recreate the theories.
Any data they give you on species, is usually what already existed (at least what I have come across so far).
As regards other claims, all we have are pictures, and claimed fossils, which could have been edited.

So evolutionists are really believing what men claim - without any substantial proof of their claim.
How is this different to believing a book?

And what if Darwin, and others lied?


I'm just interested in you different opinions and thoughts, on the above.
Here is a nice short video of someone's opinion. Reasonable too.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #211

Post by Willum »

[Replying to theStudent]

Prove the Bible wrong.
Do you want me to start at "in the beginning..."? Because of course, the universe did not begin with the Earth. That would make the Bible wrong.
Adam and Eve do not have enough genetic material to spawn a race... good start. Cain and Able are just bastardized Osiris and Set, a fable occurring and documented some 2400 years before the Jews claimed it as their own. (Proof Egyptian Book of the Dead, any myth chronography - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris_myth .)

Prove evolution true...
Already done for any sentient being this side of 1986... evolution was accepted as a fact then... or are you talking about ME personally proving it is true?

Evolution is a proven fact.
http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/lenski.html
It is as much a fact as the round Earth, or the Earth orbiting the Sun.
Scientific understanding requires both facts and theories that can explain those facts in a coherent manner. Evolution, in this context, is both a fact and a theory. It is an incontrovertible fact that organisms have changed, or evolved, during the history of life on Earth.
What you don't see tS, is that it is quite possible to prove the Bible wrong and evolution right. Incidentlly, did you know evolution was postulated BEFORE Christianity murdered everyone who believed in it, during those Religion Inspired Dark Ages. The Dark Ages should be proof enough for anyone, the side of right.

Show me an instance otherwise, we can continue your game. Which part of the Bible will you desire proven wrong, next? Being fair, that I am off to a good start.

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Post #212

Post by H.sapiens »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 199 by Bust Nak]

I commend you for your patience. Honesly, I do.

Bust Nak wrote:No, that's just life, not until it's has split to two branches. The same way there are no teams in solitaire. "Teams" only make sense when there are two or more teams.
I'll get there. Just take me through this slowly.

The common ancestor is life, but not species. True or false?
Bust Nak wrote:No, that's just the origin of species. The same way a book that is not referring to the formation of Britain, but after it's formation, should not be called the origin of Britain.
I already said not the common ancestor, but all species after.
These are the species being referred to. Yes?
So species, life-form. Is there a difference?
You are looking for something that does not exist, a bright shining line between a common ancestor and daughter species, of for that matter between daughter species themselves. It does not exist, speciation is a gradual process. Look up ring species and understand that what makes them so interesting is that they substitute real estate (distance over ground) for time.

A species is like you, a common ancestor is like your parents and grand parents and so forth back as far as you want to go. Some species (like a person's lifetime) are long lived, some short, some have lots of offspring, some none.

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Post #213

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 209 by H.sapiens]

Or look up Tions and Ligers. That is pretty good evidence of evolution if you ask me...

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=tions+and+ligers

Or Mules, for that matter. Evolution abounds if you just open your eyes to it.

Or vestigial tendons, whale pelvises, or vestigial anything really. I myself have that useless tendon in one wrist and not the other.

What explanation those, huh? Did God create imperfect things coincident with traits we no longer need?

Every persons nervous system changes direction half way up the body, for Pete's sake: Indicative of ancestors who ran on all fours. The human back is a weak mess for the same reason.

And so on...And so on...And so on...

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Post #214

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 208 by Willum]
Willum wrote:Do you want me to start at "in the beginning..."? Because of course, the universe did not begin with the Earth. That would make the Bible wrong.
Of course, how can the beginning be something that's after the beginning?
Ahhhhh. My stupidity.
Duh.
It's not the beginning of the universe - which already exists.
It's not the beginning of life outside the earth and it's heavenly atmosphere - which already exists.
It's the beginning of earth and it's atmospheric heavens.
Read the Bible, before claiming to be an expert on what it says.
Count one - Wrong.
Willum wrote:Adam and Eve do not have enough genetic material to spawn a race... good start. Cain and Able are just bastardized Osiris and Set, a fable occurring and documented some 2400 years before the Jews claimed it as their own. (Proof Egyptian Book of the Dead, any myth chronography - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris_myth .)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... -CLAY.html
All life on Earth may have come from clay according to new scientific research - just as the Bible, Koran and even Greek mythology have been suggesting for thousands of years.
:tongue:
Acts 17:24-28
24The God who made the world and all the things in it, being, as he is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples; 25nor is he served by human hands as if he needed anything, because he himself gives to all people life and breath and all things. 26And he made out of one man every nation of men to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of where men would dwell, 27so that they would seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us. 28For by him we have life and move and exist, even as some of your own poets have said, For we are also his children.
The Bible is the Bible - not the Qur'an or any other mythological writings.
Each have their differences.
Read the Bible and get to know what it says before believing unsupported statements.
Count two - Wrong.
Willum wrote:Prove evolution true...
Already done for any sentient being this side of 1986... evolution was accepted as a fact then... or are you talking about ME personally proving it is true?

Evolution is a proven fact.
http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/lenski.html
It is as much a fact as the round Earth, or the Earth orbiting the Sun.

Quote:
Scientific understanding requires both facts and theories that can explain those facts in a coherent manner. Evolution, in this context, is both a fact and a theory. It is an incontrovertible fact that organisms have changed, or evolved, during the history of life on Earth.


What you don't see tS, is that it is quite possible to prove the Bible wrong and evolution right. Incidentlly, did you know evolution was postulated BEFORE Christianity murdered everyone who believed in it, during those Religion Inspired Dark Ages. The Dark Ages should be proof enough for anyone, the side of right.
:D
You're contradicting your friends Willum.

Read and understand the material on your own beliefs, before you jump to conclusions
Look before you leap - there may be an empty void beneath you.
I will help you - before you kill yourself.
Count three - Wrong.
Willum wrote:Show me an instance otherwise, we can continue your game.
How many time must I show you?
If I have to show you a million times I will.
Willum wrote:Which part of the Bible will you desire proven wrong, next? Being fair, that I am off to a good start.
Correction.
Look above.
You just might see God. :D
The red say it all - try again - you failed - miserably.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #215

Post by theStudent »

Since I changed the ball game, I haven't heard help3434.
Perhaps it's still not up to speed.
Let's see what happens here.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Falsifiability
if a theory cannot be falsified, there is no point in even examining the evidence.
Falsified
Definition
Capable of being tested (verified or falsified) by experiment or observation

Scientific
Theory
There was a common ancestor. Falsifiable = TRUE (For the life of me, I don't know why.)
All life evolved from the common ancestor. Falsifiable = TRUE
  • is never ultimately proven
  • can never be proven to be absolutely true
  • has never been proven to be truth or fact
    • remains a falsifiable theory


http://www.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2012/479824/

There is a creator. Falsifiable = FALSE
  • cannot be disproved
So why are they searching for E.T.
Dr. Charles Thaxton - Charles B. Thaxton, In Pursuit of Intelligent Causes Origins & Design, Summer 2001, p. 28-29
If the inference for an intelligent cause for DNA (and for life too, if DNA is truly necessary for life) is in error, then we would likewise be in error to infer the presence of extraterrestrial intelligence upon receipt of intelligible radio messages from deep space. More important, our knowledge of past civilizations provided by archaeologists would be in jeopardy. These supposed Artifacts might be, after all, the result of unknown natural causes. Cave paintings, for examplemay not be the result of early humans.Indeed, excavated ancient libraries could not be trusted to contain the works of intelligent men and women.

What are the facts - the truth?
http://www.dissentfromdarwin.org/
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2006/02/ov ... 01981.html
Over 500 doctoral scientists have now signed a statement publicly expressing their skepticism about the contemporary theory of Darwinian evolution.
Image

Theory
Evolution is a lie. Falsifiable = TRUE
  • and this falsifiable theory will be tested to the limit - and verified to be a lie.
Enjoy the beginning of the truth EXPOSED!
http://www.changinglives.org.au/evolution.html
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #216

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 209 by H.sapiens]
H.sapiens wrote:You are looking for something that does not exist, a bright shining line between a common ancestor and daughter species, of for that matter between daughter species themselves. It does not exist, speciation is a gradual process. Look up ring species and understand that what makes them so interesting is that they substitute real estate (distance over ground) for time.

A species is like you, a common ancestor is like your parents and grand parents and so forth back as far as you want to go. Some species (like a person's lifetime) are long lived, some short, some have lots of offspring, some none.
Thanks, but...
I don't think you understand the post H.sapiens.
Do you want to look at it again, and tell me if your post has any bearing on what I am asking?
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #217

Post by theStudent »

Willum wrote: [Replying to post 209 by H.sapiens]

Or look up Tions and Ligers. That is pretty good evidence of evolution if you ask me...

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=tions+and+ligers

Or Mules, for that matter. Evolution abounds if you just open your eyes to it.

Or vestigial tendons, whale pelvises, or vestigial anything really. I myself have that useless tendon in one wrist and not the other.

What explanation those, huh? Did God create imperfect things coincident with traits we no longer need?

Every persons nervous system changes direction half way up the body, for Pete's sake: Indicative of ancestors who ran on all fours. The human back is a weak mess for the same reason.

And so on...And so on...And so on...
:shock:
I am convinced...
The world has gone mad.
Why don't you mate a pig with... :study:
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #218

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 211 by theStudent]

You are conceding the point then? Evolution occurs and began with a clay reactor? Because that's what the article says.

Or are you trying to say that God was necessary in using the clay. Because they are saying the clay was necessary, God wasn't.

By the way, you haven't done anything but claim I was wrong about the Bible, I'd like you to note that there are many many viewers of our discussion, so you saying I am wrong, is not only wrong, but witnessed as being wrong by perusers of this site.

So, I'll label that as a concession as well. Bible proved wrong. Evolution proved right.
End of topic.

But that's only based on what you've provided and tried to refute.
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.

You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.

To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight

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Post #219

Post by Willum »

theStudent wrote:
:shock:
I am convinced...
The world has gone mad.
Why don't you mate a pig with... :study:
And that gentle readers signals an uncivil defeat. The Student, you should, now, join the rest of us, at least on the refutation of your "What if..."

We have at least shown, nobody was lying...
Tions and Ligers and Vestigial tendons... Oh my!
Warts and Whale-feet and Neurons... Oh my!


Peace.

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Post #220

Post by theStudent »

Willum wrote: [Replying to post 211 by theStudent]

You are conceding the point then? Evolution occurs and began with a clay reactor? Because that's what the article says.

Or are you trying to say that God was necessary in using the clay. Because they are saying the clay was necessary, God wasn't.

By the way, you haven't done anything but claim I was wrong about the Bible, I'd like you to note that there are many many viewers of our discussion, so you saying I am wrong, is not only wrong, but witnessed as being wrong by perusers of this site.

So, I'll label that as a concession as well. Bible proved wrong. Evolution proved right.
End of topic.

But that's only based on what you've provided and tried to refute.
I pointed out where you were wrong.
Admitting we are wrong, isn't easy, is it?
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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