God, justice, fairness and perfection

[Justin108]

For this debate, I need you to answer each of these questions in order.

1. Is God perfectly fair and just?

2. If God is not perfectly fair and just, does that mean God is by definition imperfect?

3. Does everyone have an equal chance in getting into heaven?

4. If everyone does not have an equal chance in getting into heaven, is God still perfectly fair and just?

[JehovahsWitness]

Being prevented from getting into heaven just because you weren't lucky enough to be born into a Christian family is no trivial matter.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe in the bible and are educated as to what it has to say about Divine justice. I will explain what we believe as explained in scripture:

God's purpose is that obedient humans live forever right here on this our planet earth.

So that everyone will eventually be given a chance for this God has purposed to ressurrect (bring back to life on earth) all those that, through ignorance or lack of opportunity have not obeyed him.

Such ones will learn about Jesus and divine standards, and if subsequently they want to conform to God's standards will be able to live forever.

In the meantime those alive today are being increasingly reached by Jehovah's Witnesses even in the most remote parts of the earth. Those we are not successful in reaching before the change in world order will be allowed to survive and learn after unless God judges them to be incorrigibly wicked.


Hope this helps,


JEHOVAHS WITNESS

[Justin108]

Your source also speak of Gentiles who don’t have the law but by nature do what the law requires. They love God by loving their neighbor.

Please reference the relevant scripture to support this claim

It isn’t just about belief – your protests to the contrary.

I never said "it's just about belief". What I am saying is that belief is a necessary requirement (as per Mark 16:16). BOTH are needed in order to receive salvation according to the Bible. So if a good man exists that is not a believer, he will be condemned as per Mark 16:16

One may have his/her personal theological opinion on things that the Church has not dogmatized but any revelation contrary to dogma is to be rejected as not originating in God.

In which case, anyone who claims non-believers go to heaven is contrary to Mark 16:16 and would therefore be rejected according to the process you describe

If they were controversial they were brought to council, which presumably is where God speaks.

Key word: presumably.

If the council decides X, it is presumably under God’s direction.

Another presumption. A council does not speak on behalf of God just because they say they do. There is nothing to suggest your council communicates with God in any way.

What if a church other than your own would hold such a council meeting but conclude a vastly different dogma? Who's dogma wins? Your church or theirs?

The Church has dogmatized the wrongness of murder by accepting canons that proscribe punishments for it.

Mark 16:16 dogmatizes the wrongness of unbelief by proscribing punishment for it (i.e condemnation).

The Bible wasn’t meant to be exhaustive and there are many cases where killing might be required – such as if a group of marauders is attacking a village. There are plenty other cases. The Bible wasn’t meant to address everything.

The Bible felt it necessary to repeat the fact that non-believers go to hell, so why not at least once mention that there are exceptions?

The fact of the matter is no exceptions to this rule are mentioned. It is therefore unjustified to assume such exceptions exist.

[Justin108]

God's purpose is that obedient humans live forever right here on this our planet earth.

Can you quote scripture to support this?

So that everyone will eventually be given a chance for this God has purposed to ressurrect (bring back to life on earth) all those that, through ignorance or lack of opportunity have not obeyed him.

I'll again ask you to quote scripture to support this?

[JehovahsWitness]

God's purpose is that obedient humans live forever right here on this our planet earth.

Can you quote scripture to support this?

Isaiah 11: 9
There shall be no harm or ruin on all my holy mountain; for THE EARTH shall be filled with knowledge of the LORD, as water covers the sea." -- New American Bible

Ecclesiastes 1: 4
"One generation goes and another comes; but THE EARTH is forever*."

Proverbs 2 v 21, 22 Douay-Rheims Bible
"For they that are upright shall dwell in THE EARTH, and the simple shall continue in it. But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it. -- King James Bible

Matthew 5: 5 American Standard Version
"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit THE EARTH."

Matthew 6 v 10 Young's Literal Translationn "Thy reign come: Thy will come to pass, as in heaven also on THE EARTH."

Isaiah 11: 9 " They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because THE EARTH will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea." NWT

Psalms 115:16 "The heavens belong to the LORD, but he has given THE EARTH to all humanity." New Living Translation (©2007)

PSALMS 72v8
May he also rule from sea to sea And from the River to the ends of THE EARTH. New American Standard Bible (©1995)

Psalms 37:29 "The righteous themselves will possess THE EARTH, and they will reside forever upon it."

Psalms 37:11:
"But the meek ones themselves will possess THE EARTH, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace."

[JehovahsWitness]

So that everyone will eventually be given a chance for this God has purposed to ressurrect (bring back to life on earth) all those that, through ignorance or lack of opportunity have not obeyed him.

I'll again ask you to quote scripture to support this?

REVELATION 20:12
"I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God's throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books." - NLT

ACTS 24:15
"having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked." NAS

LUKE 23:43
"And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise" - NWT

[ttruscott]

For this debate, I need you to answer each of these questions in order.

1. Is God perfectly fair and just?

YES.

2. If God is not perfectly fair and just, does that mean God is by definition imperfect?

Probably.

3. Does everyone have an equal chance in getting into heaven?

YES we did, perfectly. We all had an equal ability and opportunity to end in heaven or hell.

4. If everyone does not have an equal chance in getting into heaven, is God still perfectly fair and just?

Made moot by previous answers. Hope this helped...

[ttruscott]

ttruscott wrote:
In the face of the Christian doctrine about the loving nature of GOD this phrase fails miserably to reach the mark.

Your solution to this dilemma is to rewrite Christianity in order for this doctrine to fit.

My solution is
a) God is not so loving after all
b) God doesn't exist
a giant leap. Why does being born a sinner automatically mean we chose to be sinners?

It is still closer to the Bible than your rewrite...

Being a sinner proves we chose to be sinful because neither HIS holiness nor HIS loving kindness allows HIM to create someone evil...HE is light / righteous goodness and in HIM is no darkness / unholy evil at all to come out. A spring of pure fresh living water cannot bring forth foul, polluted brackish water. You look up the verses if they are important to you.

[ttruscott]

Because if things are not equal then things are not fair. The fact that God largely leaves it up to chance is not fair. Therefore, God is not fair

GOD leaves nothing to chance. It only looks like chance to the unschooled. Your false premise makes the conclusion moot. Our lives are predetermined therefore no chance, and they are also predetermined in accord with the pre-earth choices we made by our free will - we get what we chose with all the consequences we were fully warned about but ignored.

[ttruscott]

The deity needs to treat everyone the same at birth, allowing everyone the same privileges. Only after people have acted to deserve punishment or reward should they receive it.

The problem is found in your rejection of our pre-earth existence which accounts for the same abilities and opportunities for all to accept or reject GOD to receive heaven or hell AND the idea that they are are born as already subject to the punishments and rewards they should receive according to their choice of actions. By placing these requirements onto people who have self created themselves already as sinners, some condemned, you can never force it to fit. Gigo, you know.

[ttruscott]

This does not address the OP at all. I demonstrated that, because not everyone has an equal chance to get to heaven, god is not fair.

You demand proof from the believers but strut this emotionally based misperception of GOD without any proof whatsoever to back it up. And don't pretend this is not a declarative statement not needing proof. YOU said it - you prove it since you are the one who loves the truth so much and only operates from a position of fact based on proof.