Happy Anniversary?

[myth-one.com]

Today, June 20th 2009, is the eighth anniversary of the sacrifice Andrea Yates made for her children. Had she not murdered them, Noah would be 15 years old, John would be 13, Paul 11, Luke 10, and Mary would be 8. Instead, they were murdered by their mother so they would go immediately to live with God eternally in the paradise of heaven, thus avoiding the possibility of eternal torment in hellfire.

Is this a victory for Christianity?

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to post 63 by 1213]

I don't see how those verses help at all. They instruct Christians to be just. How are Christians ignoring these laws with their literal witch hunts?

By what I see, the judgments were not just. And they were not judges set by God (the rules were for judges that God had set, not for anyone who is able to cherry pick one line out of great book).

That's the problem right there: "By what you see." By what they saw, you are the one ignoring God's Law commanding you to be just, you are the one cherry pick one line out of great book; while they are the ones fulfilling their God given duty, burden even, as appointed judges.

[JLB32168]

The argument being put forth here is that Andrea Yates simply took the religious beliefs which she had been indoctrinated into her whole life to their obvious conclusion. She concluded that the best way to save her children from the influence of evil which might eventually destroy their chances for going to heaven was to kill them while they were still young and innocent. A perfectly logical conclusion based on the theology that she had been indoctrinated into. Of course she knew that killing them was a forbidden sin, but it was a sin that she intended to take on herself while leaving the children innocent of sin. Again, a perfectly logical conclusion based on the religious reality that she had been indoctrinated into accepting as valid her entire life.

And is it your contention that Christianity should reject the belief that innocent children go to heaven when they die because one pitiable woman afflicted with mental illness and in need to compassion, therapy, and probably medication, took that belief to a horrendously tragic end and who will now think, "I'm a pedicide" for the rest of her life?

Let me bring up the same point I did with myth-one.com, who seems to have disappeared.

Many more parents have used the tenet to comfort themselves when they tragically lose a child. I know of three people who miscarried who held onto that theology to get through the loss. I know of two elderly women who lived with the tragedy of abortion from their teenage years who finally overcame the guilt through the same theology.

Do you begrudge their coping mechanism? If so, do you resent it because its different from yours? Do you think that everyone should think exactly as you do? Is it better for them to believe, My child is food for worms and I will never see him/her again? The answers to these questions seem to be Yes from the arguments presented on this board and seem quite heartless if you ask me.

[myth-one.com]

The idea that children who die in their innocent years go to Heaven for eternity -- is a widely held Christian view. It is not a worldview.

Semantic Pedantics " if you must build a point upon such hairsplitting then the argument cannot be too strong.

What's abhorrent is that she used her "Christian" theology to justify the murders.

She was mentally ill for heaven's sake.

Many more parents have used the theology to comfort themselves when they tragically lose a child. I know of three people who miscarried who held onto that theology to get through the loss. I know of two elderly women who lived with the tragedy of abortion from their teenage years who finally overcame the guilt through the same theology. Why do you begrudge their coping mechanism (which you must.) Is it because its different from yours?? Do you think that everyone should think as you and w/o the slightest deviation therefrom?

Where do you think the Yates children are today?

In heaven " does it gall you to no end that I dont think their rotting corpses are mere worm food? It would seem that your answer would be Yes.

The basic problem afflicting most Christian denominations can be fixed so easily, then every problem mentioned in your post above would never have existed. Here is how:

That root cause of the churches failure is the false belief in mankind's immortality:

The Bible teaches that you are an immortal soul.

That is a lie, which was first preached to mankind by the snake in the Garden of Eden:

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (Genesis 3:4)

When any theologian states that a part of every human will live forever after their physical body dies, they are simply and obviously wrong! Regardless of the number of doctoral degrees they possess, or the number of Presidents who have invited them into the White House, they are utterly wrong!

If man has immortality as a right of birth, then death does not apply to man now, or ever!

But the Bible repeatedly states that man dies! So theologians redefine death to be spiritual death or "eternal separation from God." This must be the case, because man's immortal soul cannot die. Thus man seals the scriptures from his own understanding.

The vast majority of Christian theologians believe and teach that man is born as an immortal, spiritual "soul" housed within a physical body. This creates an obvious problem, as spiritual bodies do not feel pain. Only flesh and blood physical bodies experience pain. When the physical body dies, these theologians teach that the soul is released. Since the soul is a spiritual body, when the souls of nonbelievers are cast into hellfire for eternity, they will feel no pain! Nonbelievers are blessed with eternal life, and their punishment is totally pain free! Theologians solve this problem by creating another myth, the bodily resurrection.

Virtually every Christian church admits to a belief in the rejoining of an incorruptible physical body with the eternal soul at the time of the resurrection. This is known as the "resurrection of the body" doctrine, and is included in many affirmations of faith. For example, from the "Apostles Creed":

I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy Catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen.

They believe this body to be different from the present earthly body in that it cannot be destroyed or killed. Therefore, when nonbelievers are cast into hellfire, they will suffer the pain of burning alive for eternity. The fire will never kill them.

What a wonderfully satanic "Christian" concept!

If an omnipotent God designed a system whereby all people who are not Christians will burn in the agony of hellfire for eternity, then explain the verse:

. . . God is love. (I John 4:8)

The scriptures state that the Church will fail in their efforts of spreading the good news of the Gospel to all nations. Most churches do not even understand the Gospel. Eternal torture in hellfire is certainly good news to no one! How can they spread what they do not know?

Nonbelievers cast into the lake of fire after their judgment will quickly perish. That will be the end of them forever. They have DIED!

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The punishment for sin is death, and death is everlasting -- they will never live again.

Shouldn't people at least know what the Bible actually states? You may not be hearing the true gospel message in your church.

Why does it matter? False Bible teachings cost many young lives! Isn't that a sufficient reason? False teachings create unhappy Christians and keep untold numbers from knowing Jesus Christ. People of other faiths hate Christians as we deem them worthy of everlasting unending torture.

Let's try something different. Let's have a revolution! Let's discover and begin teaching the true gospel message of love in our churches before the next innocent child is murdered! Let's begin to unseal the scriptures as we approach the end times!

Learn the truth for your own peace of mind. Millions of people, Christian or otherwise, live in fear of themselves or their loved ones burning in hell eternally.

Today's Christianity is a religion of fear and worry!

Let's admit our tragic past mistakes, and move on into our true inheritance and value.

[JLB32168]

That root cause of the churches failure is the false belief in mankind's immortality.

When any theologian states that a part of every human will live forever after their physical body dies, they are simply and obviously wrong![/quote]Youre entitled to your opinion. How is it relevant to the case of Mrs. Yates? Are you trying to assert that she wouldnt have killed her children if she didnt have this silly belief? You cant know that.

[Clownboat]

The argument being put forth here is that Andrea Yates simply took the religious beliefs which she had been indoctrinated into her whole life to their obvious conclusion. She concluded that the best way to save her children from the influence of evil which might eventually destroy their chances for going to heaven was to kill them while they were still young and innocent. A perfectly logical conclusion based on the theology that she had been indoctrinated into. Of course she knew that killing them was a forbidden sin, but it was a sin that she intended to take on herself while leaving the children innocent of sin. Again, a perfectly logical conclusion based on the religious reality that she had been indoctrinated into accepting as valid her entire life.

And is it your contention that Christianity should reject the belief that innocent children go to heaven when they die because one pitiable woman afflicted with mental illness and in need to compassion, therapy, and probably medication, took that belief to a horrendously tragic end and who will now think, "I'm a pedicide" for the rest of her life?

Let me bring up the same point I did with myth-one.com, who seems to have disappeared.

Many more parents have used the tenet to comfort themselves when they tragically lose a child. I know of three people who miscarried who held onto that theology to get through the loss. I know of two elderly women who lived with the tragedy of abortion from their teenage years who finally overcame the guilt through the same theology.

Do you begrudge their coping mechanism? If so, do you resent it because its different from yours? Do you think that everyone should think exactly as you do? Is it better for them to believe, My child is food for worms and I will never see him/her again? The answers to these questions seem to be Yes from the arguments presented on this board and seem quite heartless if you ask me.

This seems off topic.
This thread is not about why humans invented religions (for coping reasons and such like you astutely point out).

Most of us believe this already, though I appreciate your supporting evidence that religions were invented for coping with the unknown.

I personally do not begrudge the coping mechanism, I was saddled with it for 2 decades myself. I'm happy not having to believe that the majority of people on this planet will not actually spend an eternity burning in fire. Call me weird I guess.

Is this specific coping mechanism worth it though? It can help people cope, but it is also a mechanism for things such as the Witch Trials and Andrea Yates. People need to cope sure, but at what cost?

[myth-one.com]

That root cause of the churches failure is the false belief in mankind's immortality. When any theologian states that a part of every human will live forever after their physical body dies, they are simply and obviously wrong!

Youre entitled to your opinion.

No I'm not entitled to my opinion!

I'm a Christian and thus committed to what the scriptures state. They state that mankind is mortal:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

If man is subject to death, then man is mortal.

Adam and Eve were not ejected from the Garden of Eden because they sinned. They were ejected to keep them from eating of the Tree of Life and gaining immortality:

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (Genesis 3:22-23)

If they could gain immortality -- then they were not born with immortality!

When the words "eternal life" or "everlasting life" are used in the Bible, they are used in phrases such as: inherit eternal life, the gift of eternal life, or the promise of everlasting life. It is never mentioned as something one is born with, but something that Christians shall inherit in the future:

And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive a hundred-fold, and shall inherit eternal life. (Matthew 19:29)

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:7)

And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. (I John 2:25)

How is it relevant to the case of Mrs. Yates?

She would have known the truth and been set free from these unnecessary fears and terror.

Are you trying to assert that she wouldnt have killed her children if she didnt have this silly belief?

Not if she was truthful about the reason why she killed them. She claimed that she killed them in their innocent years to insure they would spend eternity in Heaven and avoid hell.

Christianity as she was taught it, gave her those thoughts.

So that thought would not have been in play if she had been correctly taught what the scriptures truly state!

Had she been an atheist, the children might be alive today. Think about that possibility!

[JLB32168]

This seems off topic.

It addresses the topic of the thread " the belief that innocents go to heaven w/o qualification. The assertion was made that a woman with obvious mental illness wouldnt have killed her children had this belief not existed. It was suggested that this belief was a bad thing.

Most of us believe this already, though I appreciate your supporting evidence that religions were invented for coping with the unknown.

Except that I dont think that they were invented for that purpose.

Is this specific coping mechanism worth it though? It can help people cope, but it is also a mechanism for things such as the Witch Trials and Andrea Yates. People need to cope sure, but at what cost?

Why cite extreme examples to prove a point " since its an illogical way to argue?

[JLB32168]

No I'm not entitled to my opinion! I'm a Christian and thus committed to what the scriptures state. They state that mankind is mortal:

No one is arguing that they physical body is mortal. Whats being debated is if the soul is immortal, if it will be rejoined with the body after it is resurrected. The Bible says it is.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 95 by myth-one.com]

Hi, myth-one.com

LOOK... omg, people are dying all over the place!!!

Youre entitled to your opinion.

No I'm not entitled to my opinion!

I'm a Christian and thus committed to what the scriptures state. They state that mankind is mortal:

Ok, you are committed to your opinion about what Christianity says about the scriptures. But., quite frankly, we don't need to search in Scripture to know that humans are mortal. There's plenty of evidence for that OUTSIDE of holy books.

[myth-one.com]

No I'm not entitled to my opinion! I'm a Christian and thus committed to what the scriptures state. They state that mankind is mortal:

No one is arguing that the physical body is mortal. Whats being debated is if the soul is immortal, if it will be rejoined with the body after it is resurrected. The Bible says it is.

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezekiel 18:4)

Immortal: incapable of death.

The soul can die according to the Bible.

And if it can die, then it is not immortal.

The bit about the soul and physical body rejoining is an oxymoron.

Why would an immortal spiritual body join with a physical body?

To feel pain, hunger, so it can die again . . . what's the point?