How can Lucifer be a fallen angel?

[Yahu]

Lucifer is only referenced once in scripture. It isn't even a name in the original hebrew. Lucifer is Latin from the Latin translation into our modern canon.

The actual passage calls him 'Heylel ben Shachar' which is translated 'Lucifer, son of the morning'. How can he be a fallen angel if he is not 'ben Elohyim' but 'ben Shachar'? I guess people don't know that Shachar was a Canaanite deity that was himself an 'ben El' according to the Canaanites.

Now Heylel (Lucifer) isn't even a name. It is a descriptive title. It means 'light bringer' or 'shining one' and is a common epitaph for a sungod. For example the same thing in Greek is Pheobus, ie 'bright'. Pheobus is a title of Apollo and Apollo means 'the destroyer' in Greek.

Now since Lucifer is from the Latin translation, it is interesting to note that the goddess Diana was Diana Luciferah as well in the Latin, ie the feminine form of Lucifer who was the twin sister of Apollo.

Most christian doctrine assumes that the serpent in the garden was Lucifer yet no where in scripture is this even speculated. Satan doesn't even appear in scripture until the time of Job, well after the flood.

Now if we assume that Shachar actually was an angel that had children then Lucifer at most is the son of a fallen angel who would have been born on earth, lived then died. How can he be anything more then just a ghost?

The passage of Isa 14 talks of Lucifer as a shameful ruler that destroys, then dies, is eaten by worms, descends into sheol where kings in sheol say 'Is this the MAN?'

So how is Lucifer a man?

[Clownboat]

I was hoping you actually had more than that.

What you were "hoping"for, indeed your personal feelings are entirely irrelevent

Where did I ever argue that my personal feelings are relevant?
Do you admit that I never made this claim?

- facts are not subject to feelings so there is a possibility only your mother actually cares what you were hoping for.

Can you show where I claimed that facts are subject to feelings? Or is this just another straw man?

In a debate forum, I address the points raised based on the confines of the subforum in which I am posting.

Good for you. Do you acknowledge that I never challenged the theological claims and that I simply asked, and this will be the 4th time:
"Would you provide the evidence for us to examine that causes you to find ghosts, demons, angels and spirits to be a credible idea? "

Why lamb blast me for hoping that either of you had more than just the words of your preferred holy books? I'm not challenging your holy book, I'm simply asking to provide the evidence for us to examine.

You both have clarified that all you have is your holy book. I appreciate this admittance and I do not wish to challenge it. Again, I do not wish to challenge it.

Put yourself in others shoes though for a moment. Consider that someone here was arguing that the earth is flat or that aliens have visited us. Would you not be curious to examine whatever caused them to believe such a thing? Would you not 'hope' that they had other evidence and not just their preferred holy book? If they had evidence besides their holy book, would you not want to examine it?

I had hoped that either of you did have more. You don't, and while that is unfortunate, I do not challenge the claims in your preferred holy book.

Best Regards with your future discussions, if you do move over to C&A.

Best regards with dealing with ghost, angels and demons.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

Boat.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 81 by Clownboat]

Thank you.

JW

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 81 by Clownboat]

Thank you.

JW

You're welcome.
I assume after these few months have passed that the only evidence for ghost, angels and demons is still just your holy book.

If that has changed and you have actual evidence, please provide what you can for examination.
Be well.

[JehovahsWitness]

I assume after these few months have passed that the only evidence for ghost, angels and demons is still just your holy book.

I wouldn't know, I would presume that in order to make such a statement one would have to know everything in the universe, from the beginning of time. I'm not privy to such vast amounts of knowlege.


You're welcome,

JW

[Clownboat]

I assume after these few months have passed that the only evidence for ghost, angels and demons is still just your holy book.

I wouldn't know, I would presume that in order to make such a statement one would have to know everything in the universe, from the beginning of time. I'm not privy to such vast amounts of knowlege.


You're welcome,

JW

Question: Is your holy book the only thing you have that references ghost, angels and demons?

Answer: I don't know if my holy book is the only thing I have because I don't know everything there is to know in the universe, from the beginning of time.

Can you know what you had for breakfast today, or would that also require knowing everything in the universe?
Color me confused.

I have learned exactly as much about what has convinced you to believe in ghosts, angels and demons as I would have learned had you not responded.

I would thank you back, but I just can't in good conscience.
Be well.

[Yahu]

Question: Is your holy book the only thing you have that references ghost, angels and demons?

No, scripture is not my only knowledge or experience with these things but it can not be offered as proof since it is personal experience.

For example, if you don't accept the validity of scripture, how can you accept the input of those who operate in the spiritual gift of discernment of spirits? Would you take the word of people that actually see into the spiritual realm and see spirits, angels and demons interacting around us? I know people that operate in this gift. Have you been the target of witchcraft?

I have been the target of witchcraft and know the things that happened as a result. Is that proof, probably not for someone like you. It was proof enough for me. The things happening in my life were beyond bizarre. I helped get an entire coven sent to prison and the events that occurred within my life were extreme to say the least.

One of the spells the coven put on me was a memory clouding spell. I lost the memories of that entire period of my life that covered about 18 months of time. I didn't even remember I had been married during that time and lost my wife in the conflict against the coven. It took having a 'spirit of confusion' cast off before my memories returned about 17 years later. I hadn't remember having ever been married or having children. I have 4 sons by 4 different women that were the victims of love spells put on them by the coven. It was because I have been located by one of my sons that helped me get help to regain those memories. After the spirit of confusion was cast off of me, all the memories of that time period returned. Those memories nearly drove me to suicide until I got a death curse broken off as well.

[dio9]

[Replying to onewithhim]

Interesting post, The prince of Tyrus claimed to be God and Ezekiel who was a prophet in exile writes , about the prince , "wilt thou say before him that slay you , I am God" (Ezekiel 28: 9) Ezekiel goes on to say , "because thou has set thine heart as the heart of God" ... " and I shall bring strangers upon the... they shall draw their swords on thee and defile thy brightness ". Here Ezekiel go mythic or prophetic or spiritual call it what you will. , saying " Thou has been in Eden the garden of God. "Wonderful on the day you were created. (28:13) Mythic again, "the anointed angel" (Cherub) " perfect in thy ways until inequity was found in you". (28:14) Ezekiel goes on and on , he is describing Lucifer's fall as if Lucifer is the king of Tyrus.
In the garden the angel is clothed in precious stones. But somehow in his glory violence erupts within just this , his glory itself , and his inequity shows , as old as time , pride goes before the fall of the Chreub.
Is Lucifer the metaphor for the king of Tyrus or is Tyrus metaphor ? Lucifer is the metaphor for kings of the earth.

Remember Jesus said the kings of the world lord it over the people. But it shall not be like that with you , those who wish to lead shall be those who serve , the Kings shall be slaves of the people. In the ideal world People shall not be slaves to kings , kings shall be slaves to people. There will be no more Lucifers.

My spell check doesn't like plural Lucifer but really there are many Lucifers (false kings ) even today.

[Clownboat]

Is your holy book the only thing you have that references ghost, angels and demons?

No, scripture is not my only knowledge or experience with these things but it can not be offered as proof since it is personal experience.

Nice! You have my attention.

For example, if you don't accept the validity of scripture, how can you accept the input of those who operate in the spiritual gift of discernment of spirits?

Such a thing has never been shown to be anything more than the imagination of the religious. If it was a real thing, I don't believe we would have over 30,000 denomination.
People that have a desire to believe will be a lot easier to convince that this gift of discernment is a real thing. No non-believer that I know of finds such a claim to be credible, but again, they are not burdened with a desire to believe.

Would you take the word of people that actually see into the spiritual realm and see spirits, angels and demons interacting around us?

That is a silly question...
Do you take the word of Muhammed that he flew up to heaven on a winged horse or that Joseph Smith received golden tablets from an angel.
Seriously, why should be just believe what people tell us?
I have some ocean front property in Arizona for sale. You interested?

I know people that operate in this gift.

I hope you don't expect to be believed. What makes you more credible then Muhammad or Joseph Smith or Saul of Tarsus?

Have you been the target of witchcraft?

You will need to define what you mean by the word. If you are asking about casting spells and such, no, I don't believe anyone ever has.

I have been the target of witchcraft and know the things that happened as a result.

Muhammad, Joseph Smith, Saul of Tarsus come to mind.
I have ocean front property in...

Is that proof, probably not for someone like you.

Wait a gal darn minute. Do you believe the claims of Muhammad and Joseph Smith as equally as you do the claims of Saul of Tarsus?
I think a little check for intellectual honesty is due.

It was proof enough for me.

This does not surprise me in the least.

The things happening in my life were beyond bizarre. I helped get an entire coven sent to prison and the events that occurred within my life were extreme to say the least.

And in your mind, you go from that to spells are real and Saul's hallucination was a real event?

One of the spells the coven put on me was a memory clouding spell. I lost the memories of that entire period of my life that covered about 18 months of time. I didn't even remember I had been married during that time and lost my wife in the conflict against the coven. It took having a 'spirit of confusion' cast off before my memories returned about 17 years later. I hadn't remember having ever been married or having children. I have 4 sons by 4 different women that were the victims of love spells put on them by the coven. It was because I have been located by one of my sons that helped me get help to regain those memories. After the spirit of confusion was cast off of me, all the memories of that time period returned. Those memories nearly drove me to suicide until I got a death curse broken off as well.

I would like to offer you some advise, but this is not the place and you are already convinced about spells and magic and who knows what else.

Why do people believe in invisible beings?
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/be ... ble-beings

[Yahu]

In the garden the angel is clothed in precious stones. But somehow in his glory violence erupts within just this , his glory itself , and his inequity shows , as old as time , pride goes before the fall of the Chreub.
Is Lucifer the metaphor for the king of Tyrus or is Tyrus metaphor ? Lucifer is the metaphor for kings of the earth.

I guess you haven't read the thread. I have already covered many of those questions.

The gems listed is a subset of the gems listed on the ephod, the breastplate of the high priest which contained one gem for each of the 12 tribes. Each tribe represented an attribute needed in the high priest to represent them all. The list of gems for the king of Tyrus is missing the entire 3rd row of gems. It is a reference to the attributes he lacks in his character. For example, he is missing the gem for the 'humble servant' while his character is the 'arrogant ruler'. The gems have to do with his innate character.

Now the prophecies for the prince and king of Tyrus and the 'she of Sidon' are about the primary deities of the Pheonicians. The prince is a reference to Baal while the King is a reference to Melquart, a title of Molech in Tire meaning 'King of the city' while Molech just means 'king' with the vowel points for 'shame', ie 'shameful king'. Of course only the Israelites would have used the 'shameful' vowel pointing. Those that followed those gods would have used 'Melek', the word for king. The 'she of Sidon' was the goddess Ashtoreth the primary deity of that city.

A 'covering cherub' is a certain type of winged being. The angels about the throne have 3 sets of wings. One set covers their feet. One set covers their body and the third set is on their back for flying. The set that covers their body is just feathered arms. That is what is referenced as a 'covering cherub'. If you have seen the movie 'One Night with the King', the story of Ester, there are several examples of this type of winged being as statues on the set. Many of the pagan gods/goddesses are represented in this way.



No the king of Tyrus isn't a metafor. It is a direct title. The pagan deity Molech/Melquart has a title of 'king'. That deity was the primary deity of the city of Tyrus just as Lucifer is equated as the 'shameful king of Babel' in Isaiah. King is one of his titles.

Lucifer isn't even a name but a title of the ancient pagan sun-god and means 'light-bringer' or 'shining one'.

[dio9]

[Replying to Yahu]

right , I didn't read the whole thread, just jumped in here. thanks for the info very interesting.