How many REAL Christians?

[Zzyzx]

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Christians are said to represent 70% of the US population. However, many Christians who debate here (and speak elsewhere) declare that some fellow Christians are Not REAL Christians. Since there is no consensus in Christendom regarding requirements / criteria for real status, individuals and groups seem inclined to make up whatever suits their position " and apply their opinion in judging fellow Christians.

A self-declared REAL Christian Protestant may declare that Catholics are not real while RCC may say the Protestants are not " thus eliminating each other. Some posters deny real status to Eastern Orthodox, LDS, JW, 7th Day, Amish, Holy Rollers, Snake Handlers, Westboro Baptist, KKK, and/or other sects / denominations / groups " based on their personal opinion.

A cumulative total of sects denied real status seems to eliminate nearly every Christian (except the speaker's chosen sect, of course). How many are left? Would 5% or 10% be a good guess? If so, that would be LESS than the percentage of the US population who declare no religious affiliation (20%) including Atheists (2%) and Agnostics (3%). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligio ... ted_States

It should be kept in mind that Christians are not truthful in surveys about church attendance. Forty percent tell surveyors they attend regularly while church attendance statistics indicate that only 20% actually attend.

Can the 20% who actually attend church regularly be considered REAL Christians? If so their numbers about equal the no religious affiliation group. Are some regular attendees NOT Real Christians (but attend church for appearances, under duress, or whatever)? Are some who do not attend church actually Real Christians? How are such matters decided? What individual or group is authorized to judge?

Does the whole issue seem like a schoolyard inclusion / exclusion game?

[JehovahsWitness]

How do you account for the fact that many "progress spiritually" even without benefit of the "true" organization, Jehovah's Witnesses?

Well I would say that many believe they "progress spiritually" when they really have no idea what "spiritual progress" is. Like I said, I believe God will settle all matters in the end, in the meantimes one must live according to ones convictions.

Or are you invalidating their experience, their manifestation of the "fruits of the Spirit" as somehow "counterfeit"?

I think there is a thread running on the fruitage of the spirit, but in short, my personal opinion is that those that don't serve the True God don't manifest the fruitage of the spirit. They can be "nice people" and God has created all humans with the capacity to display positive qualities, but the FoS are (by definition) the result of his spirit which He only gives those that meet his standards.



JW

[Volbrigade]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

This is an interesting topic.

"Real Christians" are those who are regenerate through their acceptance of the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ, who has borne the sins of the world, paid our (individual) sin debt, and fulfilled the Law of Moses completely. Faith is the transaction of this exchange, as Jesus has done everything. All we can do is receive a gift; like a man allowing a benefactor to pay his otherwise unpayable bar tab. The only action required, or possible, by us is the exercise of our free will in accepting God's gift through faith.

"Real Christians" are made "new creations" by the acceptance of Christ's grace. They are freed -- saved -- from the consequence of sin; and whereas the were previously spiritually dead in those sins, and helpless; they are now indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God, with the capacity for sanctification, a process of working toward holiness that involves overcoming the power (as opposed to the consequences) of sin in their lives: a process that will be culminated with their glorification, and their being removed from the presence of sin. For many, if not most, this glorification will occur after death; though there is a generation that will not taste death, but will be translated into the metacosmic reality of which ours is but a subset -- a reality that is, at a minimum, hyperdimensional in nature.

What is the percentage of people to whom this description applies?

We have no way of knowing.

There are times when I fear it is distressingly small. I know for a fact there are a lot of folks who "pay God the great honor" of their presence in church pews on Sundays; but are not believers nor regenerate nor, in many cases, very interested in being so.

But then I remember that the mercy of God is limitless.

In the end, there is only one person whose salvation, and hence whose "real" Christianity, one can be certain of -- and that is yourself.

I will add that Church attendance or denominational affiliation has NOTHING to with one's justification through faith; though it could affect their sanctification in any number of ways. The Body of Christ -- that corpus of individuals who constitute the body of "real", believing Christians -- transcends all barriers of religion, denomination, race, gender, class, nationality, and so forth.

For example:

One may be a Catholic, and not be a Christian.

Or one may be a Catholic who IS a Christian.

One can be born a Catholic (or a Muslim, or a Hindu...).

You cannot be born a Christian. You must be re-born, of the spirit, to be one.

"God has children; but He has no grandchildren."

[marco]

............. but in short, my personal opinion is that those that don't serve the True God don't manifest the fruitage of the spirit. They can be "nice people" and God has created all humans with the capacity to display positive qualities, but the FoS are (by definition) the result of his spirit which He only gives those that meet his standards.

There are many outside of the JW sect who sincerely worship "the true God", the same one that JWs claim for themselves. I am reminded when I hear such claims that "he has put down the mighty from their seat and has exalted the humble." The mighty may well be the wedding guests who claim a right to be at the top table. One can apply this presumption as much to JWs as to almost any religious group who believe they have God's ear. It is an understandable human frailty to WANT to be special. If only wishing were fulfilment, eh?

[Peds nurse]

Hello my most wonderful friends! And...thanks Z, for the topic!

In my most humble opinion, I don't think the word, "Christian" will get us any closer to God than the atheist. It is BECAUSE it seems to mean so many things to so many people. I don't think God is interested in our interpretation of who will pass the standards and who will not, of entering His kingdom. He is far more interested in our hearts (figurative), turned to Him. He is interested in those who love Him and pursue Him with an unquenchable thirst. He is interested in us loving Him, and showing that love to people. We all know, that isn't everyone in church, or a particular sect of Christianity. So, how do we know who is the real Christian? We don't, and it isn't up to us to try to figure it out, because there isn't anyway that we can. If a deacon in the church can be the BTK serial killer, then I'd say we are pretty poor judges anyway.

[Zzyzx]

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In my most humble opinion, I don't think the word, "Christian" will get us any closer to God than the atheist. It is BECAUSE it seems to mean so many things to so many people.

Yes, the name seems to mean whatever someone wants it to mean

I don't think God is interested in our interpretation of who will pass the standards and who will not, of entering His kingdom.

I do not disagree (or agree).

He is far more interested in our hearts (figurative), turned to Him. He is interested in those who love Him and pursue Him with an unquenchable thirst. He is interested in us loving Him, and showing that love to people.

Does that exclude those who live in harmony with others, are benevolent, fair, kind, etc -- but don't choose to worship God or gods?

We all know, that isn't everyone in church, or a particular sect of Christianity. So, how do we know who is the real Christian? We don't, and it isn't up to us to try to figure it out, because there isn't anyway that we can. If a deacon in the church can be the BTK serial killer, then I'd say we are pretty poor judges anyway.

Many, in fact, use appearance of devout religiosity to cover all sorts of reprehensible actions.


Maybe we should attend to our own actions rather than judging others.

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 15 by Zzyzx]

Maybe we should attend to our own actions rather than judging others.

I agree....to a point. We have to judge what actions are right or wrong. Killing your neighbor, vandalizing property, beating your children....those are wrong. Judging whether or not someone is a Christian, and will make it into Heaven...it simply isn't our place.

[Zzyzx]

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Maybe we should attend to our own actions rather than judging others.

I agree....to a point. We have to judge what actions are right or wrong. Killing your neighbor, vandalizing property, beating your children....those are wrong. Judging whether or not someone is a Christian, and will make it into Heaven...it simply isn't our place.

PN, is it up to us individually to judge such things -- or is that a matter for legislatures to pass appropriate laws and a matter for the legal / justice system / judge and jury to decide guilt or innocence?

Of course we are entitled to an opinion -- but isn't that as far as our right to judge goes?

[Peds nurse]

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Maybe we should attend to our own actions rather than judging others.

I agree....to a point. We have to judge what actions are right or wrong. Killing your neighbor, vandalizing property, beating your children....those are wrong. Judging whether or not someone is a Christian, and will make it into Heaven...it simply isn't our place.

PN, is it up to us individually to judge such things -- or is that a matter for legislatures to pass appropriate laws and a matter for the legal / justice system / judge and jury to decide guilt or innocence?

Hello Z! Well, I think it is up to us to judge whether we think it is wrong. If I witness someone beating a child, but do nothing about it, I would feel I was guilty as well. If I judge the action to be wrong, then I would have no choice but to intervene.

Of course we are entitled to an opinion -- but isn't that as far as our right to judge goes?

That is a double edge sword. I have to have some judgments, or my children would run amok! Judging isn't what the problem is, it is the intent of the one casting the judgement. Is it to condemn or correct?

[Zzyzx]

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Always a pleasure PN.

Maybe we should attend to our own actions rather than judging others.

I agree....to a point. We have to judge what actions are right or wrong. Killing your neighbor, vandalizing property, beating your children....those are wrong. Judging whether or not someone is a Christian, and will make it into Heaven...it simply isn't our place.

PN, is it up to us individually to judge such things -- or is that a matter for legislatures to pass appropriate laws and a matter for the legal / justice system / judge and jury to decide guilt or innocence?

Well, I think it is up to us to judge whether we think it is wrong.

I agree. We are entitled to decide (judge) what we THINK is wrong. Are we entitled to enforce what we think?

If I witness someone beating a child, but do nothing about it, I would feel I was guilty as well. If I judge the action to be wrong, then I would have no choice but to intervene.

Once in a lifetime (or perhaps a few times) we may encounter a situation that is clear-cut and warrants our intervention. However, even then we risk being wrong in our evaluation.

For instance, if we came across a man holding another at gunpoint we could intervene if we were armed " and shoot the gunman if he refused to drop his gun. However, that could be a massive blunder since the man with the gun could have been the intended victim of a robbery who took the thief's gun and was holding him waiting for police to arrive.

Of course we are entitled to an opinion -- but isn't that as far as our right to judge goes?

That is a double edge sword. I have to have some judgments, or my children would run amok! Judging isn't what the problem is, it is the intent of the one casting the judgement. Is it to condemn or correct?

You are entitled as a parent to discipline your children (to some extent) and make decisions for them. Does that entitlement extend to disciplining other, anonymous children? Adults?

[Zzyzx]

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"Real Christians" are those who are regenerate

Kindly describe the regeneration process and cite references to verify

through their acceptance of the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ, who has borne the sins of the world, paid our (individual) sin debt, and fulfilled the Law of Moses completely. Faith is the transaction of this exchange, as Jesus has done everything.

That sounds like a sermon. We should keep in mind that this is a debate not a church or a revival meeting.

All we can do is receive a gift; like a man allowing a benefactor to pay his otherwise unpayable bar tab.

Some of us are wise enough to NOT incur an unpayable bar tab " and to not accept responsibility for a tab that was supposedly incurred by someone else (long ago).

Those who think they have such a bar tab are welcome to do whatever they deem necessary to relieve themselves of that burden (which they have been conditioned or convinced to accept).

The only action required, or possible, by us is the exercise of our free will in accepting God's gift through faith.

So say those promoting one of the world's 4000 religions. Is there real-world assurance it is anything other than product of human imagination?

"Real Christians" are made "new creations" by the acceptance of Christ's grace.

Kindly demonstrate that people actually become new creations by accepting Christ's grace in anything other than imagination.

They are freed -- saved -- from the consequence of sin; and whereas the were previously spiritually dead in those sins, and helpless; they are now indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God, with the capacity for sanctification, a process of working toward holiness that involves overcoming the power (as opposed to the consequences) of sin in their lives: a process that will be culminated with their glorification, and their being removed from the presence of sin. For many, if not most, this glorification will occur after death; though there is a generation that will not taste death, but will be translated into the metacosmic reality of which ours is but a subset -- a reality that is, at a minimum, hyperdimensional in nature.

Sermons and speculation are not appropriate in debate " though they may be in church or in Holy Huddle sub-forum. Here one is expected to demonstrate that they speak truth.

What is the percentage of people to whom this description applies?

We have no way of knowing.

Agreed. The percentage of people who are REAL Christians, if any, is pure speculation " using criteria that are not universally accepted in Christendom (i.e, are personal opinion).

There are times when I fear it is distressingly small. I know for a fact there are a lot of folks who "pay God the great honor" of their presence in church pews on Sundays; but are not believers nor regenerate nor, in many cases, very interested in being so.

Agreed

But then I remember that the mercy of God is limitless.

So it is claimed by some who also claim that their God sends people to hell for failing to worship correctly.

In the end, there is only one person whose salvation, and hence whose "real" Christianity, one can be certain of -- and that is yourself.

Yes, we should mind our own business.

I will add that Church attendance or denominational affiliation has NOTHING to with one's justification through faith; though it could affect their sanctification in any number of ways. The Body of Christ -- that corpus of individuals who constitute the body of "real", believing Christians -- transcends all barriers of religion, denomination, race, gender, class, nationality, and so forth.

Justification through faith, sanctification, Body of Christ, Real, believing Christians are all religious concepts that have not been shown to apply to the real world.

"God has children; but He has no grandchildren."

That's a catchy phrase " that might well impress people in church.