God, justice, fairness and perfection

[Justin108]

For this debate, I need you to answer each of these questions in order.

1. Is God perfectly fair and just?

2. If God is not perfectly fair and just, does that mean God is by definition imperfect?

3. Does everyone have an equal chance in getting into heaven?

4. If everyone does not have an equal chance in getting into heaven, is God still perfectly fair and just?

[marco]

Why would a Hindu read the Bible?

Because an invading British Officer was standing over him after he was presented with one? Of course another question would be "How could a Saudi Arabian read the Bible when Bibles are banned?" God knows the answer, of course, for he works in mysterious ways.

[tam]

Peace to you Justin!

2 - People have objected to this understanding because the sheep are called righteous, and they think that only those who believe in Christ and God can be righteous. But this is untrue

How do you know this is untrue? Revelations 21:8 suggests this is true as it lists "unbelieving" among other deplorable acts such as the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, etc.

The verse comes directly after those words you quoted, Justin:

Paul writes,

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Keep in mind that "You shall have no other gods before Me" is part of the law so if Paul says "those who obey the law are declared righteous" then they need to obey this law as well.

Love IS the law of the new covenant, Justin.

As for sins such as those mentioned at Rev 21:8:


I knew from my Lord that those in Him are already covered by Him - washed clean in His blood; and so their sins are forgiven. There is no judgment for those in Christ, they need not have any fear of the second death (the lake of fire which means the second death). We are being taught and subdued and disciplined by Him, here and now.


My Lord also reminded me of the covering that some who are not Christian can have - and that covering is love.

Love covers over a multitude of sins.


Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 1Peter 4:8


Love being the most important matter of the law under the old covenant, as well as being THE law under the new covenant; love (of God and of neighbor) were always the two most important commands according to Christ, the Truth; loving one's enemies is also asked of us if we wish to be perfect as God is perfect; and to His own my Lord said that we are to love one another as He has loved us.



There is no law against love.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Galatians 5:23


If there is no law against love, then love must be the law; especially since my Lord emphasized it, and since all the commandments rested upon the two commandments about love.

That being said:


Love is the law that some people of the nations have written NATURALLY upon their hearts, and so they do by nature the things required BY that law, making them a law unto themselves, since their own thoughts accuse or defend them, and their own consciences bear witness to them. (Romans 2:13-16)



**


This does not mean that a murderer is going to be let into the Kingdom to commit murder. Or that an unbeliever (one who rejects Christ) is going to be permitted into the Kingdom while continuing to reject Him and refusing to accept Him as King. It would be unwise for any King to allow such a person into His Kingdom to wreak havoc.

And that may be all that the verse in Revelation is referring to.


But those who have the law love upon their hearts (and do the requirements of that law)... who have also done good to Christ in doing good to even a least one of His brothers... have revealed that they are not enemies of the Kingdom or enemies of Christ. Might they have some learning and/or healing to do, even if just in the beginning? That makes sense to me. Hence, "the leaves of the tree is for the healing of the nations.' (revelation 22:2). And those in Christ are learning from Him now, learning to serve, to be the least, to love as He loves, so that they are equipped to rule as king-priests with Him in His Kingdom then.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JoeyKnothead]

Peace to you Justin!

2 - People have objected to this understanding because the sheep are called righteous, and they think that only those who believe in Christ and God can be righteous. But this is untrue

How do you know this is untrue? Revelations 21:8 suggests this is true as it lists "unbelieving" among other deplorable acts such as the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, etc.

The verse comes directly after those words you quoted, Justin:

Paul writes,

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Keep in mind that "You shall have no other gods before Me" is part of the law so if Paul says "those who obey the law are declared righteous" then they need to obey this law as well.

Love IS the law of the new covenant, Justin.

As for sins such as those mentioned at Rev 21:8:


I knew from my Lord that those in Him are already covered by Him - washed clean in His blood; and so their sins are forgiven. There is no judgment for those in Christ, they need not have any fear of the second death (the lake of fire which means the second death). We are being taught and subdued and disciplined by Him, here and now.


My Lord also reminded me of the covering that some who are not Christian can have - and that covering is love.

Love covers over a multitude of sins.


Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 1Peter 4:8


Love being the most important matter of the law under the old covenant, as well as being THE law under the new covenant; love (of God and of neighbor) were always the two most important commands according to Christ, the Truth; loving one's enemies is also asked of us if we wish to be perfect as God is perfect; and to His own my Lord said that we are to love one another as He has loved us.



There is no law against love.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Galatians 5:23


If there is no law against love, then love must be the law; especially since my Lord emphasized it, and since all the commandments rested upon the two commandments about love.

That being said:


Love is the law that some people of the nations have written NATURALLY upon their hearts, and so they do by nature the things required BY that law, making them a law unto themselves, since their own thoughts accuse or defend them, and their own consciences bear witness to them. (Romans 2:13-16)



**


This does not mean that a murderer is going to be let into the Kingdom to commit murder. Or that an unbeliever (one who rejects Christ) is going to be permitted into the Kingdom while continuing to reject Him and refusing to accept Him as King. It would be unwise for any King to allow such a person into His Kingdom to wreak havoc.

And that may be all that the verse in Revelation is referring to.


But those who have the law love upon their hearts (and do the requirements of that law)... who have also done good to Christ in doing good to even a least one of His brothers... have revealed that they are not enemies of the Kingdom or enemies of Christ. Might they have some learning and/or healing to do, even if just in the beginning? That makes sense to me. Hence, "the leaves of the tree is for the healing of the nations.' (revelation 22:2). And those in Christ are learning from Him now, learning to serve, to be the least, to love as He loves, so that they are equipped to rule as king-priests with Him in His Kingdom then.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

You always present a message of love and kindness. Of doing good, and being good. I ain't ever seen you post otherwise.

I worship your god, if only 'cause he made someone special as you.

[ttruscott]

So by no fault of their own, they just happened to be born in the "wrong" religion and will never pray, read the Bible, etc. and will not find salvation. So they have an unfair disadvantage from not being born in a Christian family. Therefore, God is unfair in allowing this.

The Christian answer is easy to understand as it is summed up in Romans 1, especially v 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, SO THAT PEOPLE ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE.

It is always interesting to see how those who suppress the truth by wickedness v18, always claim ignorance of YHWH when they indulge in some other religion...but their eyes will be opened I think.

[Justin108]

Love IS the law of the new covenant, Justin.

Is Love the one and only law? Then why does Revelations 21:8 bother mentioning all these sins if they don't matter?

I knew from my Lord that those in Him are already covered by Him - washed clean in His blood; and so their sins are forgiven. There is no judgment for those in Christ

Define "in Christ"

We are being taught and subdued and disciplined by Him, here and now.

And what about those who have no reason to believe these lessons come from God?

My Lord also reminded me of the covering that some who are not Christian can have - and that covering is love.

Again, this implies that all that matters is love. So why does the Bible bother mentioning all the other wicked deeds we should abstain from? Why does Revelations 21:8 tell us the wicked, vile and unbelieving are cast into the lake of fire only to then tell us "oh never mind, they go to heaven too". It would make a lot more sense if Revelations 21:8 simply said "those without love are cast into the lake of fire"

This does not mean that a murderer is going to be let into the Kingdom to commit murder. Or that an unbeliever (one who rejects Christ) is going to be permitted into the Kingdom while continuing to reject Him and refusing to accept Him as King. It would be unwise for any King to allow such a person into His Kingdom to wreak havoc.

And that may be all that the verse in Revelation is referring to.

This doesn't explain why Revelations mentions "unbelievers". If being an unbeliever is a man's only sin, then his sin will immediately fall away the moment he steps into the Kingdom, so there is no risk involved in permitting him entrance.

[Justin108]

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, SO THAT PEOPLE ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE.

A Christian looks at creation and thinks "this clearly demonstrates that God exists. God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen"

A Muslim looks at creation and thinks "this clearly demonstrates that Allah exists. Allah’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen"

A Hindu looks at creation and thinks "this clearly demonstrates that Brahma exists. Brahma's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen"

So I guess you have no excuse to be a Muslim or a Hindu either

It is always interesting to see how those who suppress the truth by wickedness v18, always claim ignorance of YHWH when they indulge in some other religion...but their eyes will be opened I think.

It is always interesting to see how those who suppress the truth by wickedness, always claim ignorance of Allah when they indulge in some other religion...but their eyes will be opened I think.

It is always interesting to see how those who suppress the truth by wickedness, always claim ignorance of Krishna when they indulge in some other religion...but their eyes will be opened I think.

[Elijah John]

So by no fault of their own, they just happened to be born in the "wrong" religion and will never pray, read the Bible, etc. and will not find salvation. So they have an unfair disadvantage from not being born in a Christian family. Therefore, God is unfair in allowing this.

The Christian answer is easy to understand as it is summed up in Romans 1, especially v 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, SO THAT PEOPLE ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE.

It is always interesting to see how those who suppress the truth by wickedness v18, always claim ignorance of YHWH when they indulge in some other religion...but their eyes will be opened I think.

Interesting, but Paul is preaching simple Deism in this case, not Christianity. All good religions, in the first article of their faith, are Deistic. That is, as Paul suggests, God is known through His Creation.

[Elijah John]

It is always interesting to see how those who suppress the truth by wickedness v18, always claim ignorance of YHWH when they indulge in some other religion...but their eyes will be opened I think.

"Some other religion" Like Judaism perhaps, which was Jesus own religion? Who also worship YHVH?

And are you suggesting here that those who "indulge in some other religion" necessarily practice "wickedness"?

Remember in the context of time and place, "other religions" were not Buddhism, Islam, Taoism etc, but rather Pagan, polytheistic, sometimes child-sacrificing, wine-soaked and orgiastic.

And it is said that folks become like the gods they worship.

I am unaware of "other religions" nowadays which advocate such things. Rather, they too are means of connecting with the Divine Good, by means of their own cultural understandings and mannerisms.

Even Pope John Paul II attributed whatever is "beautiful, good and true" to the activity of the Holy Spirit in those other good word religions. (Islam included).

[ttruscott]

It is always interesting to see how those who suppress the truth by wickedness v18, always claim ignorance of YHWH when they indulge in some other religion...but their eyes will be opened I think.

"Some other religion" Like Judaism perhaps, which was Jesus own religion? Who also worship YHVH?

The truth that seems to be considered in Rom 1 as suppressed is narrowly the truth of YHWH's Divinity and power as our creator GOD (so no one has an excuse) as leading to false religions. I suppose this can be logically broadened to include all the ramifications of such a rebellion against HIM within every culture as the base or start of all evil.

And are you suggesting here that those who "indulge in some other religion" necessarily practice "wickedness"?

Only sinners are born on earth. 1 Kings 8:46 --for there is no one who does not sin--. Sinners worship idols: Psalm 96:5 For all the gods of the nations are idols, but the LORD made the heavens.

Even Pope John Paul II attributed whatever is "beautiful, good and true" to the activity of the Holy Spirit in those other good word religions. (Islam included).

This supports the Christian conclusion that all good in the cultures which deny YHW is due to their evil being restrained from growing to full potential (except in individuals) as an unearned blessing like the sun and the rain. The end times sees the removal of the Restrainer and the predicted outcome is pretty bad.

MATTHEW 5:45 For He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. refers to this principle without suggesting that their worship of other gods is acceptable.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 187 by ttruscott]

Muslims do not worship "other Gods". They worship the same God of Abraham, but under a different name. "Allah" means "THE God", in Arabic. The one and only Living God. Known to us as YHVH.

Why is that so hard, for so many to understand? Perhaps Jesus-worship is to blame. But remember, even Arab Christians call the Father, "Allah".