God, justice, fairness and perfection

[Justin108]

For this debate, I need you to answer each of these questions in order.

1. Is God perfectly fair and just?

2. If God is not perfectly fair and just, does that mean God is by definition imperfect?

3. Does everyone have an equal chance in getting into heaven?

4. If everyone does not have an equal chance in getting into heaven, is God still perfectly fair and just?

[JehovahsWitness]

The fact that Muslims, and many, many Christians deny the name is limiting, and creates a vacum. Most Christians try to fill this vacum by worshiping the human being Jesus. But this does not mean that Christians or Muslims don't worship the very same God of Abraham.

So they claim. However, even the Israelites were told in scripture by that God that when they tried to mix pagan customs with their worship of Jehovah (YHWH) they had invalidated their worship. So one identifying feature of the God of the bible is he doesn't accept unauthorized modifications and compromise in terms of worship.

That so-called Christians claim to be worshipping the God of Abraham, all the while having transformed him into a semi-nameless, trinitarian man-god (or for muslims a totally nameless god (allah means god, the title), only means they claim to worship Jehovah. It doesn't mean they do.

Baal accepted human sacrifice, didn't he? So Baal is not just another name for God, Baal was a false God, demon, an idol and a monster. The God of Abraham does not accept human sacrifice, either under the name of "YHVH" or under the name of "Allah".

So the principle here is: When one's worship features actions that are unacceptable to a god (or rather to the God of Abraham, pagan gods seemed to have little standards and pretty much accepted everything), even if one CLAIMS that that worship is being offered to YHWH the god of the bible, one is in fact not worshipping him at all.

Denying, changing, ignoring or denegrating the Divine name is unacceptable to the God YHWH of the bible, following the above principle of "unacceptability" those that do so are not in fact worshipping Him they are claiming to worship him.

[JehovahsWitness]

If YHVH can be known as El Shaddai, or Elohim, why can't He be known as Allah as well? Allah means "THE God" (of Abraham). [...] Remember, there was a time that YHVH was not even known to His people as YHVH, but rather "El Shaddai". (reference in Exodus, I believe). Does that mean YHVH was a "different God" at the time?

I won't go into details here in C&A because this would lead to a theological discussion based on scripture, but suffice it to say that in scripture it is clear that the early bible patriarchs, even from Adam were perfectly aware of the name of God.

El shaddai (Hebrew for God Almighty) is a title not a personal name. A title is a general word that can be applied to a all in a certain group, which describes a person's features or position. For example as a woman can be known as "Mrs" a title given to married women or mother. God has many titles, that highlight features of his person or position (Lord, God, Sovereign of the Universe, Mighty, Almighty, God of Armies, Father, etc) but only one personal name. Just as Mrs, can be legitimately paired with a woman's personal name (Mrs (title) + Sharon Peterson (personal name), Elshaddai in scripture is often paired with God's name (El shaddai YHWH) but cannot be considered a personal name.

[Zzyzx]

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Why all the concern about a name? Many of us are known to some people by our first name, by others by our middle name, and by still others by our title and last name. So what?

The name by which Muslims refer to their "God" does NOT indicate that it is a different God from that of Judaism and Christianity.

Islam splintered away from Judaism as did Christianity. Neither (quite) invented a new God -- but reused the old one -- with some modifications and with addition of new characters / icons.

It is understandable that each religion wants to consider itself unique -- but they all evolve from earlier religions and add a few new wrinkles to appeal to their audience.

[anontheist]

[Replying to post 1 by Justin108]

Justice is receiving what you deserve.

Mercy is forgiveness of what you deserve, even if justice suggest otherwise.

Justice for a mass murderer would be hell.

Mercy would be an eternity in heaven.

Fairness is getting what you deserve; justice.

Mercy, by its nature, is not fair.

[marco]

So one identifying feature of the God of the bible is he doesn't accept unauthorized modifications and compromise in terms of worship.

"I love you" carries the same meaning in any language. The objection you raise is an artificial human one, for it is obvious that people who prostrate themselves before the God of Abraham are worshipping Jehovah.

Denying, changing, ignoring or denigrating the Divine name is unacceptable to the God YHWH of the bible, following the above principle of "unacceptability" those that do so are not in fact worshipping Him they are claiming to worship him.

It may be unacceptable to some group of humans who concern themselves with fashion and formulae rather than sincere devotion. If people pray in their own language or, as children, pray in a childish way, then it would not be a merciful and loving God who rejected them. Such pusillanimous behaviour is, sadly, the mark of judgmental humans, the Pharisees that Christ reprimanded. 'Ask and you shall receive' does not carry the foolish stipulation, "ask in the precise wording."

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 183 by ttruscott]


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[bluethread]

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Why all the concern about a name? Many of us are known to some people by our first name, by others by our middle name, and by still others by our title and last name. So what?

Interesting point, Blastcat. Does it really matter what we call each other, Bust Nak? After all, it is not like I could refer to myself as Zzyzx and say things that you would never say, right?

The name by which Muslims refer to their "God" does NOT indicate that it is a different God from that of Judaism and Christianity.

You have a point, but what is attached to Al(the) ilah(deity) in the Koran does indicate that it is not the same deity as the one in The Tanakh or the Apostolic Writings.

Islam splintered away from Judaism as did Christianity. Neither (quite) invented a new God -- but reused the old one -- with some modifications and with addition of new characters / icons.

You also have point here. Personally do not think that the deity of the RCC is Adonai.

It is understandable that each religion wants to consider itself unique -- but they all evolve from earlier religions and add a few new wrinkles to appeal to their audience.

Another interesting view point. However, I think it is a rather narrow way of looking at the various belief systems. I personally am not concerned as to whether my views are unique. However, that does not mean that someone who agrees with me here and there has the same belief system as me.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to Zzyzx]

I asked this before:
How does one distinguish one all-powerful God from another, since they can behave as they will, and are under no obligation to any religion.

How would you be bound to a covenant with an ant mound?
Would you save their ant souls from a forest fire?

This God would be farther above you, than you are above ants...

How can you rectify discriminating God's properties, and then imagining he'd be what you think?

Your premise is wrong. Though we cannot find GOD from our level up, this does not stop HIM from teaching us the truth from HIS level down. Part of to be in HIS image is to be able to have a full communion and communication with HIM or how does this world end in our marriage to HIM?

[Zzyzx]

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Why all the concern about a name? Many of us are known to some people by our first name, by others by our middle name, and by still others by our title and last name. So what?

Interesting point, Blastcat. Does it really matter what we call each other, Bust Nak? After all, it is not like I could refer to myself as Zzyzx and say things that you would never say, right?

It might come as a real shock to some, but my real name isn't Zzyzx. It's David. Notice that my response does not depend upon use of the “real� name. I am not offended if someone calls me Zzyzx or if they confuse me with BC or BN (even if they weren't both are very capable, credible debaters).

The name by which Muslims refer to their "God" does NOT indicate that it is a different God from that of Judaism and Christianity.

You have a point, but what is attached to Al(the) ilah(deity) in the Koran does indicate that it is not the same deity as the one in The Tanakh or the Apostolic Writings.

Notice that Christians' response to the Bible God indicates that it is ALSO a different God than the Jewish Torah God.

Islam splintered away from Judaism as did Christianity. Neither (quite) invented a new God -- but reused the old one -- with some modifications and with addition of new characters / icons.

You also have point here. Personally do not think that the deity of the RCC is Adonai.

Your (or my) personal opinion is not binding on the RCC.

It is understandable that each religion wants to consider itself unique -- but they all evolve from earlier religions and add a few new wrinkles to appeal to their audience.

Another interesting view point. However, I think it is a rather narrow way of looking at the various belief systems.

If striving for uniqueness was presented as though it was the ONLY characterization of various belief systems it would be rather narrow. However, that limitation was not stated or implied.

I personally am not concerned as to whether my views are unique. However, that does not mean that someone who agrees with me here and there has the same belief system as me.

Again, personal opinions are of no significance in debate and are not being debated. Do you claim that religions do not strive to appear unique?

[bluethread]

Why all the concern about a name? Many of us are known to some people by our first name, by others by our middle name, and by still others by our title and last name. So what?

Interesting point, Blastcat. Does it really matter what we call each other, Bust Nak? After all, it is not like I could refer to myself as Zzyzx and say things that you would never say, right?

It might come as a real shock to some, but my real name isn't Zzyzx. It's David. Notice that my response does not depend upon use of the “real� name. I am not offended if someone calls me Zzyzx or if they confuse me with BC or BN (even if they weren't both are very capable, credible debaters).

My point is not to offend, but to show that names mean things, if only to differentiate between individuals. The fact that names have meanings was even more significant in biblical times.

Notice that Christians' response to the Bible God indicates that it is ALSO a different God than the Jewish Torah God.

Personally, I do not think that the deity of the RCC is Adonai.

Your (or my) personal opinion is not binding on the RCC.

Yes, there is a difference and the RCC can think whatever it likes. I just think that the difference between Adonai, as exemplified in the Tanakh, Yeshua and the Apostles, and the deity of the RCC and resultant protestants makes them not really the same deity. One could say that this is just a matter of degree and many Christians have a view of their deity that is very similar to mine. However, that is the point. The degrees matter.

Do you claim that religions do not strive to appear unique?

I don't know about other belief systems, but, for me, uniqueness is more a byproduct of recognizing differences than striving to appear unique.