What If...?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
theStudent
Guru
Posts: 1566
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:32 pm
Been thanked: 2 times

What If...?

Post #1

Post by theStudent »

Currently, I am doing what was suggested by some on these forums.
I am researching information both for, and against evolution, and trust me - I am doing so objectively.
While I am still researching, I want to put this out, to hear the different views on it.

During my research I discovered that lately, just over the last decade or so, a lot of informations has been surfacing about fake fossils.
In fact it has now become common place for fossils sold at museums to be checked for genuineness.
I find this interesting.

Why now, is this happening?
Could it be that evidence as it always does, is now surfacing?

For example
Remember the dinosaur hoax - the one that was said to be put together using different bones?
It has recently been found out that it wasn't a hoax after all.
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/02/ ... ecies.html

That is quite interesting.

The fossils aren't the only things that were/are claimed to be fake.
There are the drawings, and pictures as well.
Right now, I am going through a very long document considered a case against some of Darwins picture illustrations.
But have you ever come across this one?

Pictures from the past powerfully shape current views of the world. In books, television programs, and websites, new images appear alongside others that have survived from decades ago. Among the most famous are drawings of embryos by the Darwinist Ernst Haeckel in which humans and other vertebrates begin identical, then diverge toward their adult forms. But these icons of evolution are notorious, too: soon after their publication in 1868, a colleague alleged fraud, and Haeckels many enemies have repeated the charge ever since. His embryos nevertheless became a textbook staple until, in 1997, a biologist accused him again, and creationist advocates of intelligent design forced his figures out. How could the most controversial pictures in the history of science have become some of the most widely seen?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Haeckel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haec ... eks4-6.jpg
English: The pictures illustrate Ernst Haeckel's biogenetic law. In the beginning embryos of different species look remarkable similar, later different characteristics develop. The images initiated controversies and charges of fraud.

All of this lends to a possibility.
Consdering the fact that fossils can be faked, we must accept the fact that Darwin, and other scientists could have lied.

My question here, isn't whether he did lie or not, but rather, Does this not place evolutionists in the same position as the Christians they claim are believing in fables?

Consider:
Christians accept the Bible, as the word of God.
Here are just a few facts about the Bible.
With estimated total sales of over 5 billion copies, the Bible is widely considered to be the best-selling book of all time.
It has estimated annual sales of 100 million copies.
It has been a major influence on literature and history, especially in the West where the Gutenberg Bible was the first mass-printed book.
It was the first book ever printed using movable type.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible

Archaeological findings of the Dead Sea Scrolls, also called the Qumran Caves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

The evidence is there however, that the book we hold in our hand today (the Bible), contains information written centuries ago.

Atheist call the book fables - the reason I have yet to find out.
Maybe one of the reasons is that they have not seen God, or seen him write any book - whatever.
So they claim that Christians' belief in them and what they present is blind faith, and belief in stories.

However, is this not the case with those who accept the theory of evolution, where all they have to go by, is what scientists claim to be evidence?

By the way...
No one, to this day have seen them recreate the theories.
Any data they give you on species, is usually what already existed (at least what I have come across so far).
As regards other claims, all we have are pictures, and claimed fossils, which could have been edited.

So evolutionists are really believing what men claim - without any substantial proof of their claim.
How is this different to believing a book?

And what if Darwin, and others lied?


I'm just interested in you different opinions and thoughts, on the above.
Here is a nice short video of someone's opinion. Reasonable too.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

Kenisaw
Guru
Posts: 2117
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:41 pm
Location: St Louis, MO, USA
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 61 times

Post #341

Post by Kenisaw »

theStudent wrote:
Kenisaw wrote:
Willum wrote: [Replying to theStudent]

Yes, of course the clouds put themselves there, and they make themselves look like dragons, in the same sense.

And the multitudes of the chemicals in the natural world do the same things, except where water freezes and evaporates and makes shapes, chemicals, cantonate, react, form patterns, and eventually reproduce.

Think about it, all chemicals need to do is make a shape that reproduces.
And some molecules are known to make copies of themselves. But Student has been told this before...
Any process that is started can continue, as long as the one who started the process designed it that way.
Isn't that logical?
No, it isn't logical. There is zero evidence that anything was designed. There is zero evidence that any process can continue indefinitely. That you would even try to claim such dribble in absence of any data to back up your assertion shows that you've learned nothing in your short time here on this site.

You've been asked by multiple people to provide your claimed evidence of your particular god creature. You've been asked for this evidence in previous threads as well. When can we expect to see this empirical data that you claim exists?

User avatar
Willum
Savant
Posts: 9017
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:14 pm
Location: Yahweh's Burial Place
Has thanked: 35 times
Been thanked: 82 times

Post #342

Post by Willum »

[Replying to theStudent]

No, I am afraid it is not at all logical. There is this thing called entropy that stops this kind of thing.

Actually entropy PROVES evolutions and by default, disproves creation.

How you say? Well unless things can change - they will get worse and worse due to faulty reproduction. So a perfect creation would become less perfect each iteration.

Whereas an evolving system has entropy built into it, so to speak, and changes due to circumstance. Or succeeds due to circumstance.
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.

You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.

To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight

User avatar
Goat
Site Supporter
Posts: 24999
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:09 pm
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 207 times

Post #343

Post by Goat »

theStudent wrote:
Kenisaw wrote:
Willum wrote: [Replying to theStudent]

Yes, of course the clouds put themselves there, and they make themselves look like dragons, in the same sense.

And the multitudes of the chemicals in the natural world do the same things, except where water freezes and evaporates and makes shapes, chemicals, cantonate, react, form patterns, and eventually reproduce.

Think about it, all chemicals need to do is make a shape that reproduces.
And some molecules are known to make copies of themselves. But Student has been told this before...
Any process that is started can continue, as long as the one who started the process designed it that way.
Isn't that logical?
There is an assumption here that can not be shown to be true. The assumption is that 'all processes are designed by someone'. Can you show that to be true?
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

User avatar
theStudent
Guru
Posts: 1566
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:32 pm
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #344

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 338 by Kenisaw]

Please note what I said.
Any process that is started can continue, as long as the one who started the process designed it that way.
If this is illogical, then pardon my ignorance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_production

You can view this thread.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

User avatar
Willum
Savant
Posts: 9017
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:14 pm
Location: Yahweh's Burial Place
Has thanked: 35 times
Been thanked: 82 times

Post #345

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 341 by theStudent]

So you are saying God is hands-on manufacturing every single cell in the world? Because that's what it would take for the process you are drawing analogy to... and so much for perfection, his manufacturing process is rife with errors.

So, I think it is pretty obvious, on both counts, the answer is 'no.' No process design, and no perfect process design.
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.

You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.

To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight

User avatar
Blastcat
Banned
Banned
Posts: 5948
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:18 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Post #346

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 341 by theStudent]
theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 338 by Kenisaw]

Please note what I said.
Any process that is started can continue, as long as the one who started the process designed it that way.
If this is illogical, then pardon my ignorance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_production
What is illogical, is that you imagine that your god would have to copy modern manufacturing methods that HUMANS use to make their toys.

What is illogical is that just because you can IMAGINE something that you believe it must be the case.

What is illogical is to deny a lot or reality.

What is illogical is to take a very nonscientific book full of superstitions and magic as your guide to how the universe operates.

What is illogical is to prefer a very bizarrely literal interpretation of what most normal people can all too easily see are allegories and myth over all the modern knowledge that we now have and tested repeatedly.

What is illogical is to single out one branch of science as just plain HORRIBLY BAD and accept the rest. What.. are biologists all STUPID or EVIL DEMONS hell bent on destroying the highly moral stance of some precious Christians?

What is illogical is your superstitious ALTERNATIVE to the theory of evolution.


:)
Last edited by Blastcat on Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

Kenisaw
Guru
Posts: 2117
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:41 pm
Location: St Louis, MO, USA
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 61 times

Post #347

Post by Kenisaw »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 338 by Kenisaw]

Please note what I said.
Any process that is started can continue, as long as the one who started the process designed it that way.
If this is illogical, then pardon my ignorance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_production

You can view this thread.
There are manufacturing processes that are designed to run continuously. That does not mean that they will continue to do so indefinitely, or even expected to continue indefinitely.

Now, about that evidence and data for a god creature? I'm still on pins and needles here...

User avatar
theStudent
Guru
Posts: 1566
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:32 pm
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #348

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 340 by Goat]

Please,notice what I said.
Any process that is started can continue, as long as the one who started the process designed it that way.
Any
process that is started
can continue, as long as the one who started the process designed it that way.

No assumptions here.
This is a fact.
If I am a master at what I do, and I made something, and put the mechanism in place, to keep it running, that's what it will do, as long as I am aware of, and abide by all the laws required for my mechanism to work.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

User avatar
Blastcat
Banned
Banned
Posts: 5948
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:18 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Post #349

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 345 by theStudent]
theStudent wrote: Any
process that is started
can continue, as long as the one who started the process designed it that way.
Can continue how long?
theStudent wrote:No assumptions here.
This is a fact.
If I am a master at what I do, and I made something, and put the mechanism in place, to keep it running, that's what it will do, as long as I am aware of, and abide by all the laws required for my mechanism to work.
For all eternity?.. you would have to be a MASTER master maker.

:)

User avatar
theStudent
Guru
Posts: 1566
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:32 pm
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #350

Post by theStudent »

Willum wrote: [Replying to post 341 by theStudent]

So you are saying God is hands-on manufacturing every single cell in the world? Because that's what it would take for the process you are drawing analogy to... and so much for perfection, his manufacturing process is rife with errors.

So, I think it is pretty obvious, on both counts, the answer is 'no.' No process design, and no perfect process design.
Anything God starts, or does is perfect.
Anything you can see, that is imperfect, cannot be proven to be his doing.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

Post Reply