Prayer?

[Lionel20]

I haven't visited the site in awhile. I'm sure this topic has been discussed over and over. But I want to engage, re-engage the forum on the issue of prayer in the traditional sense.

I believe in prayer in a sense of communicating with God - the eternal force from which the fundamental forces of the universe derived.

But I struggle to understand the prayer in the traditional ecclesiastical sense. Is it redundant to pray as a loved one is being admitted into the hospital for surgery 'God guide the Surgeons hands. Or give my loved one a speedy recovery'. Does the employ a God who would otherwise be idle? Or what about the Lord's prayer in Matthew 6, "[May] God's will be on earth as it is in heaven?". What does this mean? And is this possible?

What about "I plead the blood of Jesus over my children's room tonight", does that ensure their safety? If Christians really believe that these prayers offer divine protection why do they purchase alarm systems? Why are many US Christians supportive of a Political Party that obsesses over the 2nd Amendment? The Catholic church in particular, from at least 300-400 AD has launched countless military campaigns in the name of Jesus - which seems a contradiction.

Does anyone really believe in conventional prayer?

[marco]

Matthew 26:39

Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

This entire episode was witnessed by nobody. It is imaginative. Why would any sane person "fall with his face to the ground" instead of behaving normally? One sees pictures of thousands of Muslims doing the same sort of acrobatics when bowing before their chosen deity. There is an element of hysteria associated with communal prayer, is there not?

[JehovahsWitness]

Matthew 26:39
Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

...Why would any sane person "fall with his face to the ground" instead of behaving normally?

This question implies that it was abnormal for Jesus to pray in this manner. From the quoted scripture we note two seperate gestures are implied,

#1 Moving from a standing position to one lower (possibly on ones knees)

#2 Dipping ones head, so the face is turned downwards, to the ground.*

The adverb "NORMALLY" has been defined as

NORMALLY
according to rule, general custom, etc.; as a rule; ordinarily; usually.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/normally

Kneeling and/or lowering ones face* are arguably by far the most usual gesture religious people take when praying. There are numerous occassions in scripture when individuals are reported as assuming one or both of these positions and observing religious customs even today makes this obvious. Thus the question is based on a false premise (ie that to lower ones face and kneeling or coming to a lower position, is an unsual (abnormal) position to take when praying.

Various Translations

"he fell facedown, praying" - Mat 26:39 NWT

"bowed with his face to the ground" NLT

"he threw himself down with his face to the ground and prayed"

" bowed with his face to the ground and prayed" GWT

CONCLUSION: Based on personal experience, interview with religious people and observation, I would argue that far from being abnormal, Jesus behaviour, notably lowering himself to the ground and turning his face downward, when praying, was normal behaviour although I concede that it would be abnormal behavior if done when attempting to climb a tree or drive a car.

[Danmark]

There is no evidence prayer is efficacious. 14 studies concluded intercessory prayer has no discernible effect. See K. Masters, G. Spielmans, J. Goodson "Are there demonstrable effects of distant intercessory prayer? A meta-analytic review." Annals of Behavioral Medicine 2006 Aug, and David R. Hodge, "A Systematic Review of the Empirical Literature on Intercessory Prayer" in Research on Social Work Practice March 2007 vol. 17 no. 2 174-187

Those who insist prayer "works" typically respond that prayer cannot be studied. In other words, evidence has no effect on the belief in prayer.

[marco]

This question implies that it was abnormal for Jesus to pray in this manner.

No it doesn't. It may well have been normal for Jesus to "fall down with his face to the ground." I am using MY view of normal not his. What else? I explained this by giving examples of others who throw themselves down and raise their rear parts to the onlookers. Why would folk want to behave like this?

Jesus could simply have stood where he was and asked, civilly, if it was necessary for him to go through with the ordeal as he was getting scared. Falling down with possible damage to his face is extreme. But in any event, it is an imaginative account, not something that actually took place. So we are discussing horrible imaginings.

The adverb "NORMALLY" has been defined as

NORMALLY according to rule, general custom, etc.; as a rule; ordinarily; usually.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/normally

Thanks for this invaluable aid. You think that throwing yourself face down on the ground is normal, do you?

[JehovahsWitness]

I am using MY view of normal not his.

You say: "I am using MY view of normal not his." so how do you establish your view of "what is normal"? By observing society in context as a whole (a reasonable approach) or just catagorizing anything you personally don't usually do as "abnormal"? The latter seems like a rather restrictive method of establishing what is "normal" or not. Most people understand that implying something is "not normal" is making a statement regarding accepted/standard behaviour for people in general not just themselves. Based on what most people observably do when in similar circumstances, praying prostrate is very common.

Jesus could simply have stood where he was and asked, civilly, if it was necessary for him to go through with the ordeal as he was getting scared.

Yes, that was no doubt a possibility; but the question here is not what was possible, but whether what he did was "]normal" and as my previous post established, praying on ones knees/in a prostrate position with one's head lowered is a very common (normal) position for believers (Jesus was a believer), although I concede, you probably never do this so it would be "abnormal" FOR YOU if that was your point (feel free to correct me if I again misunderstood your point).


JW

[marco]

and as my previous post established, praying on ones knees/in a prostrate position with one's head lowered is a very common (normal) position for believers (Jesus was a believer), although I concede, you probably never do this so it would be "abnormal" FOR YOU if that was your point (feel free to correct me if I again misunderstood your point).

Yep, praying is normal. You're altering the discussion. Falling down with your face to the ground? Perhaps a tad abnormal.

And you keep forgetting, the event was never witnessed.

[Claire Evans]

Matthew 26:39

Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

This entire episode was witnessed by nobody. It is imaginative. Why would any sane person "fall with his face to the ground" instead of behaving normally? One sees pictures of thousands of Muslims doing the same sort of acrobatics when bowing before their chosen deity. There is an element of hysteria associated with communal prayer, is there not?

How do you know that this was witnessed by nobody? His disciples saw this according to the Bible. If you are in spiritual agony and have intense fear, you would also collapse. He was about to be crucified. Should He behave normally? No, so this cannot be compared to what Muslims do.

[marco]

Matthew 26:39

Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

How do you know that this was witnessed by nobody? His disciples saw this according to the Bible.

For all I know Tiberius Caesar might have seen him. I am accepting Matthew where we learn the accompanying apostles were too tired - as if! - to watch.

And he cometh unto the disciples and findeth them asleep and saith to Peter, What, could ye not watch one hour with me?

So the mystery remains. Who saw him?

[catnip]

I haven't visited the site in awhile. I'm sure this topic has been discussed over and over. But I want to engage, re-engage the forum on the issue of prayer in the traditional sense.

I believe in prayer in a sense of communicating with God - the eternal force from which the fundamental forces of the universe derived.

But I struggle to understand the prayer in the traditional ecclesiastical sense. Is it redundant to pray as a loved one is being admitted into the hospital for surgery 'God guide the Surgeons hands. Or give my loved one a speedy recovery'. Does the employ a God who would otherwise be idle? Or what about the Lord's prayer in Matthew 6, "[May] God's will be on earth as it is in heaven?". What does this mean? And is this possible?

Well, praying when a loved one is suffering or at risk through surgery makes us feel better, focuses our minds and has a calming effect, perhaps. But according to Matt 6 which includes a great deal of instruction besides just the Lord's Prayer, God knows our needs before we ask. And we need not go on and on as the heathens do. What we really want and need is to feel the presence of God and that takes silence.

What about "I plead the blood of Jesus over my children's room tonight", does that ensure their safety? If Christians really believe that these prayers offer divine protection why do they purchase alarm systems? Why are many US Christians supportive of a Political Party that obsesses over the 2nd Amendment? The Catholic church in particular, from at least 300-400 AD has launched countless military campaigns in the name of Jesus - which seems a contradiction.

Perfect love casts out all fear. You are right, of course. The thing we need is peace. Perhaps it is because we can't fathom exactly how it works when it works the way it is supposed to work and so we have expectations based on how this world appears to work rather than accepting the reality of God. And some are more overt and use the church and claim the power of God for the purpose of furthering their own agendas, remaining locked in their own imaginings of violence and terror and remaining unchanged by (through) faith.

Does anyone really believe in conventional prayer?

Where does the concept of "conventional" prayer come from? What is its historical basis? Does that practice derive from ancient Greek or Roman practice in their Pagan societies? I gather as I read Matt 6 that what Jesus is teaching isn't even traditional in Judaism, but I may be wrong. Jesus says to go to a room by ourselves and shut the door and he closes by saying that our Father, who sees what we do in secret will come to us and reward us. I don't see that many focus or even know his instruction.

As I pointed out in the first paragraph, Matt 6 contains more than just the Lord's Prayer. What that prayer contains are the thoughts that we need to focus on, the model prayer: the hope that the will of God will be done on earth as it is in heaven (precludes war, hate, violence, fear, personal power and acclaim, wealth for a few and need and starvation for many); requesting our daily bread which is the spirit of wisdom, guidance and the peace of God; asking forgiveness for any wickedness, stinginess, selfishness that we have committed against God and others AND forgiving others for all their selfishness and wickedness (so that ours may be forgiven); asking that we not be lead into doing regrettable things; and finally to be delivered from evil.

[Zzyzx]

.

And we need not go on and on as the heathens do.

Interesting comment / claim.

Are those who "go on and on" praying for an ill person heathens?