What's the Cost?

[ElCodeMonkey]

So, what is Jesus talking about? How is accepting his murder as punishment for our sins so costly for us? Sounds pretty easy in modern-day Christianity. What all have you guys paid so far? Anything? What's been so costly for you?

The Cost of Being a Disciple

25Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters"yes, even their own life"such a person cannot be my disciple. 27And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

28Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Wont you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? 29For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, 30saying, This person began to build and wasnt able to finish.

31Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Wont he first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. 33In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.

34Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? 35It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile; it is thrown out.

Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.

and

The Parables of the Hidden Treasure and the Pearl

44The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.

45Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. 46When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it.

[JehovahsWitness]

The Cost of Being a Disciple [Luke 14: 25-26]

25Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters"yes, even their own life"such a person cannot be my disciple. 27And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

In this passage of scripture Jesus is explaining that his followers must understand that being a Christian will also involve sacrifice and endurance of difficulties. Not necessarily dying for ones beliefs (although that has been the case for many Christians, even in our modern times) and every Christian will not have the same tests and trials but all will have to accept that being a Christian is not easy and be willing to bear the difficulties. For example, some will have families that are opposed so their Christian position they refuse to have any further contact with them (has happened to me) as Jesus implied and all will have to bear the difficult responsibility of preaching the word in a world that is sometime hostile or outright aggressive to that message.

Further research
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102014684

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

RELIGION, BABYLON THE GREAT and ...THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS

[ElCodeMonkey]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

That's it? Sounds like a bigger cost to be black in the US than to be Christian. So Jesus was only warning that some people just might not like it and that we should consider if we can handle some people not liking us? I'd venture that this is extremely unlikely for most people and I've been more ostracized by Christians than non. Only Christians have excommunicated me while atheists have accepted me no matter where I was.

Also, I'm asking about personal cost, not the cost of someone else. We can always find a person who had it hard in any walk. But what about us specifically?

[JehovahsWitness]

So Jesus was only warning that some people just might not like it and that we should consider if we can handle some people not liking us?

"Not liked", "mocked and threatened", "ostracize"," persecuted [beated, raped etc] ", "imprisoned"," tortured" or" killed"... I think those seven treatments (7) about cover the main possible costs of being a True Christian.

Nazi Persecution: Holocaust Museum (link)
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.ph ... d=10005394

[ElCodeMonkey]

[Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]

But you could get any of those things for being Buddhist or even atheist. Atheistic scientists often lost their heads for going against orthodoxy. Is this really what Jesus was talking about?

In essence, those are often the punishment for NOT being something rather than for BEING Christian.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]

But you could get any of those things for being Buddhist or even atheist. Atheistic scientists often lost their heads for going against orthodoxy.

It's not a competition. You asked "what is the cost" for Christians and I outlined "what those costs refer to"; if you had asked in another forum about atheist persecution I'm sure you would have gotten answers there, but you did not.



Full list PDF download (scroll down)
https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/by-reg ... in-prison/

The principal victims of religious persecution in the United States in the twentieth century were the Jehovahs Witnesses. -- The Court and the Constitution (1987), Archibald Cox, former Watergate special prosecutor

"Viewed globally, this persecution has been so persistent and of such an intensity that it would not be inaccurate to regard Jehovah's Witnesses as the most persecuted religion of the twentieth century". -- Ken Jubber, Socialiologist, Cape Town University

"Viewed globally....Jehovah's witnesses are the most hated and persecuted group of Christians of the twentieth century."
-- Jerry Bergman PH. D., A Brief History of A Century of Religious-State Conflicts

"Religious freedom can progress only when assaults against established, peaceful, honorable groups like the Jehovahs Witnesses cease. " -- Derek H. Davis, J.D., Ph.D. Director of the Center for Religious Liberty, University of Mary Hardin-Baylor in Belton, Texas.

[catnip]

So, what is Jesus talking about? How is accepting his murder as punishment for our sins so costly for us? Sounds pretty easy in modern-day Christianity. What all have you guys paid so far? Anything? What's been so costly for you?

You ask thought provoking questions. J.W.'s response is perhaps more like what most Christians responses ought to be, that we give up self and pick up our cross and follow Christ. I will give Jehovah's Witnesses that much--that they actually believe that they should passively resist violence and few Christian groups encourage that. We should be promoting peace and protesting violence among other things. Each of us may have a different mission--but we can't count the cost to ourselves for what seems so terribly important to do. That is why each of us has our own cross to bear.

Once I heard an inspiring news account of something a group of Christians were doing in some far off place where war and deprivation were causing suffering and I wished that I could do something that purposeful. But there I was, the mother of two living in the middle of a huge country where war and suffering were far from my daily experience. The answer came to me that I did have a mission in my own little corner of the universe--and it wasn't glorious and it wasn't remarkable but it was just as important.

And really, that is the point of what you have quoted here. We shouldn't begin if we are not willing to go the mile. Ask what we are willing to give up--even if it is all we have and even our very lives--and don't lose hope. What is the purpose of our lives and what makes our life have meaning? As Jesus says, "You can win the whole world at the cost of your true self." Many a successful person has worked hard to gain material and/or social success and acclaim or power in this world, only to find that once having achieved exactly what they worked so hard for it is all emotional emptiness. It isn't rewarding at all. What is the point? The secret is that that is all meaningless, dust blowin' in the wind.

I think what your further questions are indicating is that you want answers from the Christians that don't give up self to follow him. A Christian should be welcoming to an atheist. That should be easy. The atheist should not meet with ostracization, but acceptance, kindness, generosity, patience . . . (note that most of the early scientists that fell into the hands of the Inquisition were Christian, that being an atheist was not such a common thing). There is only one way Christians should treat all others: lovingly. Jesus was looked down on for associating with tax gatherers, prostitutes and sinners--but he is our model. He wasn't browbeating them if he was dining and drinking with them. The Pharisee thought that Jesus should reject the woman washing his feet with her tears, drying them with her hair and applying expensive oils to them. He simply pointed out that the more a person needs to be forgiven, the more love they will respond with. So much for browbeating sinners, eh?

[Elijah John]

And let's not forget the horrible price Jews have paid throughout history, with the Roman occupation and conquest, the murder of the martyrs, the Inquisition, the Holocaust, present anti-Semitism etc.

Jesus himself was part of that tradition, and suffered "persecution for righteousness sake" even unto death.

And his people, likewise. Jew AND Christian.

Christians are still persecuted in China, and in Muslim countries. ISIS being the most atrocious example of this. Butchering Christians and Jews just for being Christians and Jews and not paying tribute.

Not to mention other, more moderate Muslims.

[ElCodeMonkey]

[Replying to post 7 by catnip]

I've never been persecuted as an atheist. I've only ever been persecuted as a Christian BY Christians for not believing identical to them. Jesus offers that all who wish to live a Godly life will be persecuted which fed my belief that I was on the right track. He didn't say some would be persecuted, he said all, and the easiest way I know to get that persecution is to deny the Bible's authenticity. The guarantee of persecution coupled with the great cost Jesus spoke of, makes me wonder just what cost we western Christians have truly paid and whether that's indicative of having lost the way Jesus preached. People may have their own little mission, but can you say that it costs you dearly to raise your children? I know it's hard work and all, but don't we simply love our children and wish the best for them? It may have daily sacrifices, but even atheist parents have those sacrifices. So is it a discipleship cost or just a general life cost? Surely Jesus didn't mean just that.

JW points to the persecution of others but never to personal cost. The fact that each and every person has their own unique "cross" to bear (such as child-rearing) whether Christian or not makes it meaningless for Jesus to mention the cost of discipleship if it's all the same for non-disciples. There's a cost to Buddhism, Islam, Atheism, and it differs by locale and personality. So what's the point? Why mention the cost to follow him if it's all the same cost even if you don't? There has to be a point, right? Jesus doesn't strike me as the kind of person to waste his words. Is the cost simply passivism then? To be honest, that's just overall intelligent. A calm response turns away wrath 9 times out of 10. It's not a guarantee, but anger often gets us into trouble and a calm and collected tongue can sooth many ills. I do it all the time. I've become a bit of an expert at it in personal situations.

The lady who called me a Satanist and a Luciferian while holding my Bible an inch from my face and screaming at me, even she deescalated simply by remaining calm. We never agreed, of course, but no harm came from it and I'm sure she has been contemplating her response and comparing it to mine. Who was more peaceable? Who was more Christ-like? Who was more Christian? Christians, in America, are the persecutors just like the Jews were in Jesus' day. It's the religious, not the peaceable who persecute and the peaceable can learn, for the most part, how to handle it with or without Christianity. So what, really, is the cost? Was Jesus mistaken or was it just meaningless banter about generic life? What cost of discipleship differs from normal everyday life?

[ElCodeMonkey]

[Replying to post 8 by Elijah John]

They're also killing atheists and preventing girls from going to school. It's not the cost of discipleship, it's the cost of being non-ISIS.