Prayer?

[Lionel20]

I haven't visited the site in awhile. I'm sure this topic has been discussed over and over. But I want to engage, re-engage the forum on the issue of prayer in the traditional sense.

I believe in prayer in a sense of communicating with God - the eternal force from which the fundamental forces of the universe derived.

But I struggle to understand the prayer in the traditional ecclesiastical sense. Is it redundant to pray as a loved one is being admitted into the hospital for surgery 'God guide the Surgeons hands. Or give my loved one a speedy recovery'. Does the employ a God who would otherwise be idle? Or what about the Lord's prayer in Matthew 6, "[May] God's will be on earth as it is in heaven?". What does this mean? And is this possible?

What about "I plead the blood of Jesus over my children's room tonight", does that ensure their safety? If Christians really believe that these prayers offer divine protection why do they purchase alarm systems? Why are many US Christians supportive of a Political Party that obsesses over the 2nd Amendment? The Catholic church in particular, from at least 300-400 AD has launched countless military campaigns in the name of Jesus - which seems a contradiction.

Does anyone really believe in conventional prayer?

[Clownboat]

I haven't visited the site in awhile. I'm sure this topic has been discussed over and over. But I want to engage, re-engage the forum on the issue of prayer in the traditional sense.

I believe in prayer in a sense of communicating with God - the eternal force from which the fundamental forces of the universe derived.

But I struggle to understand the prayer in the traditional ecclesiastical sense. Is it redundant to pray as a loved one is being admitted into the hospital for surgery 'God guide the Surgeons hands. Or give my loved one a speedy recovery'. Does the employ a God who would otherwise be idle? Or what about the Lord's prayer in Matthew 6, "[May] God's will be on earth as it is in heaven?". What does this mean? And is this possible?

What about "I plead the blood of Jesus over my children's room tonight", does that ensure their safety? If Christians really believe that these prayers offer divine protection why do they purchase alarm systems? Why are many US Christians supportive of a Political Party that obsesses over the 2nd Amendment? The Catholic church in particular, from at least 300-400 AD has launched countless military campaigns in the name of Jesus - which seems a contradiction.

Does anyone really believe in conventional prayer?

I do!
It is a self serving way to feel like you did something to help another (for example) without having to actually do anything to help.

If prayer had been shown to effective in anyway, instead of being shown to be ineffective, then it wouldn't have to be considered as a selfish and self serving thing to do.

You can give a man a fish, and he will fed for a day. Or, you can teach a man to pray for fish, and he will die of starvation.

[Clownboat]

Matthew 26:39
Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

...Why would any sane person "fall with his face to the ground" instead of behaving normally?

This question implies that it was abnormal for Jesus to pray in this manner. From the quoted scripture we note two seperate gestures are implied,

#1 Moving from a standing position to one lower (possibly on ones knees)

#2 Dipping ones head, so the face is turned downwards, to the ground.*

The adverb "NORMALLY" has been defined as

NORMALLY
according to rule, general custom, etc.; as a rule; ordinarily; usually.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/normally

Kneeling and/or lowering ones face* are arguably by far the most usual gesture religious people take when praying. There are numerous occassions in scripture when individuals are reported as assuming one or both of these positions and observing religious customs even today makes this obvious. Thus the question is based on a false premise (ie that to lower ones face and kneeling or coming to a lower position, is an unsual (abnormal) position to take when praying.

Various Translations

"he fell facedown, praying" - Mat 26:39 NWT

"bowed with his face to the ground" NLT

"he threw himself down with his face to the ground and prayed"

" bowed with his face to the ground and prayed" GWT

CONCLUSION: Based on personal experience, interview with religious people and observation, I would argue that far from being abnormal, Jesus behaviour, notably lowering himself to the ground and turning his face downward, when praying, was normal behaviour although I concede that it would be abnormal behavior if done when attempting to climb a tree or drive a car.

15 mind control techniques both churches and cults use.

6. Repetitive drills (and consequences for nonconformity)

In addition to singing, a good cult would require its victims to perform rote physical drills like marching, dancing, kneeling or clapping. The moment you participate in a drill youre being obedient. You didnt just kneel or march or clap. You followed an order without thinking about it, and the more you do that the more likely you are to do it again. Eventually the charismatic leader wont be asking you to do calisthenics. Hell be asking for money or a favor. Whats more interesting than that though. If you can get a group of people used to following your orders and acting in unison you can eventually give the whole group an order, and theyll act in unison. That would give you the power to tell a group of people to go build a house or go burn a house down.
https://thewisesloth.com/2012/09/02/15- ... is-a-cult/

IMO, this question still stand:
Why would any sane person "fall with his face to the ground" instead of behaving normally?

Justifying this by pointing to a cult or church or a cult/church only reinforces how this is a form of mind control.
Other forms of mind control are dictating with whom you may or may not associate with. (Us vs them creates something for cults to unite together against. Forms unity within the said cult).
The trick is to keep your in-group together as much as possible and get them to willfully ostracize themselves from the rest of society as much as possible.

Then there is also recruitment techniques:
Cults need a constant stream of new victims in order to finance the charismatic leaders lifestyle. Soif you run into an organization that is constantly having recruitment drives to get people to come listen to an infomercial where theyre asked to give money at the enddont go there.

[JehovahsWitness]

In addition to singing..., dancing, kneeling or clapping.

You forgot breathing...

Native American Dance Presentations


Seems most of humanity has engaged in this "abnormal" behavior at one time or other.




JW

[Lionel20]

Prayer is a communication with oneself. The acid test of a letter being received is that we get word back. With prayer there is never any indication anyone has paid the slightest attention.

Of course people over the centuries have prayed; some killed human beings in their efforts to get a reply. People prayed during the Holocaust and again - no reply. If after a billion prayers we discover NO replies, I wonder what we should conclude.

The brain has the ability to recognize self-generation. The reason it's difficult to "tickle" yourself for instance, is because the cerebellum, part of the brain that coordinates muscle movement, is signaling arm and hand movement to the places where you're otherwise "ticklish". If the cerebellum is controlling the motion through the nerves then the nerves aren't surprised or "tickled".

The brains ability to recognize it's own generated motion also applies to voice recognition. Unless you have a mental illness, you should be able to recognize your own voice, even if it's only echoing in your head.

For the moment, I do believe the voices I deem to be from God are a sort of auditory hallucination. My company has a psychiatrist on staff, and he claims that less than 30% of people experiencing auditory hallucinations actually suffer from a mental illness.

I'm not on any medication. When I ask what I believe to be God, "should I sell my house" for instance, and I hear "It's time for you to call your realtor and list it", I know..

1. That's not my voice
2. I'm 32, over the last 5 or so years I've learned to consult this "voice in my head", and I can't recall a time it hasn't eventually work out well.
3. I consider this "prayer", a conversation with what I believe to be God.

That's an example of my definition of prayer and receiving instruction from God. For most of my life its been just reciting memorized statements I learned in church or asking/begging God to do something for myself or someone else. It may have made me feel better, but I'm unsure as to how much power those types of prayers have actually had.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Prayer is a communication with oneself. The acid test of a letter being received is that we get word back. With prayer there is never any indication anyone has paid the slightest attention.

Of course people over the centuries have prayed; some killed human beings in their efforts to get a reply. People prayed during the Holocaust and again - no reply. If after a billion prayers we discover NO replies, I wonder what we should conclude.

The brain has the ability to recognize self-generation. The reason it's difficult to "tickle" yourself for instance, is because the cerebellum, part of the brain that coordinates muscle movement, is signaling arm and hand movement to the places where you're otherwise "ticklish". If the cerebellum is controlling the motion through the nerves then the nerves aren't surprised or "tickled".

The brains ability to recognize it's own generated motion also applies to voice recognition. Unless you have a mental illness, you should be able to recognize your own voice.

For the moment, I do believe the voices I deem to be from God are a sort of auditory hallucination. But my company has a psychiatrist on staff. He claims that less than 30% of people experiencing auditory hallucinations actually suffer from a mental illness.

I'm not on any medication. When I ask what I believe to be God, "should I see my house" for instance, and I hear "It's time for you to call your realtor and list it", I know..

1. That's not my voice
2. I'm 32, over the last 5 or so years I've learned to consult this "voice in my head", and I can't recall a time it hasn't eventually work out well.
3. I consider this "prayer", a conversation with what I believe to be God.

That's an example of my definition of prayer and receiving instruction from God. For most of my life is been just reciting memorized statements I learned in church or asking/begging God to do something for myself or someone else. It may have made me feel better, but I'm unsure as to how much power those types of prayers have actually had.

It must be useful to be able to ask God's opinion on your life decisions. Not everyone is able to get advise directly from God. Which makes you very special.

But not completely unique. My late aunt had a running conversion going with Jesus for over twenty years. It was an entirely one sided conversion from the perspective of the rest of us, but he was right there in the room, according to her.

One day she announced that Jesus had told her the exact time of his second coming. It was to be at the crack of dawn on the appointed day. She proclaimed this news to her entire church congregation. So before dawn on the appointed day my aunt and a large portion of her church sat out in lawn chairs in the church parking lot before Dawn to watch Jesus and his angels return from the sky in glory.

As you may have guessed, Jesus stood her up.

She could never explain why Jesus had let her down in this way. But she went right on talking to him until the day she passed away at the age of ninety.

[Clownboat]

In addition to singing..., dancing, kneeling or clapping.

You forgot breathing...

Native American Dance Presentations


Seems most of humanity has engaged in this "abnormal" behavior at one time or other.




JW

Breathing was not mentioned in the article and there is no link to breathing being a mind control device.
Either way, in regards to your picture. Yes, even medicine men/shamans use such devices to control their subjects.

I don't see what the difference is whether we call such people priests, medicine men, pastors or shamans.

It's still mind control no matter how many religions or cults you show doing it, so I'm not sure the purpose of your pic.

Again... my point was: The moment you participate in a drill youre being obedient. You didnt just kneel or march or clap. You followed an order without thinking about it, and the more you do that the more likely you are to do it again.

[marco]

I'm not on any medication. When I ask what I believe to be God, "should I sell my house" for instance, and I hear "It's time for you to call your realtor and list it", I know..

1. That's not my voice
2. I'm 32, over the last 5 or so years I've learned to consult this "voice in my head", and I can't recall a time it hasn't eventually work out well.
3. I consider this "prayer", a conversation with what I believe to be God.

That's an example of my definition of prayer and receiving instruction from God. For most of my life its been just reciting memorized statements I learned in church or asking/begging God to do something for myself or someone else. It may have made me feel better, but I'm unsure as to how much power those types of prayers have actually had.

This is an unusual and inexpensive way of getting advice and probably better advice than you'd get from professionals. Your deepest resources are analysing your question and responding with a fine, considered reply. It's a little worrying you think that God is feeding you with information and I would be rather concerned if, sitting beside you on a plane, you asked your maker if it were the right time to send the passengers for an early bath.

[Claire Evans]

Matthew 26:39

Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

How do you know that this was witnessed by nobody? His disciples saw this according to the Bible.

For all I know Tiberius Caesar might have seen him. I am accepting Matthew where we learn the accompanying apostles were too tired - as if! - to watch.

And he cometh unto the disciples and findeth them asleep and saith to Peter, What, could ye not watch one hour with me?

So the mystery remains. Who saw him?

It's true. The disciples saw Him in a state, not when He was praying. However, the Gospel of Matthew goes on to say in Mark 14:51:

51 And a young man followed him, with nothing but ua linen cloth about his body. And they seized him."

[marco]

It's true. The disciples saw Him in a state, not when He was praying. However, the Gospel of Matthew goes on to say in Mark 14:51:

51 And a young man followed him, with nothing but ua linen cloth about his body. And they seized him."

You said they SAW him praying. They didn't. How could his prayer be reported, then? Of course he could have re-enacted the scenario for them when he rose from the dead.

As for the naked man, that introduces an entirely different theme.

[JehovahsWitness]

Yep, praying is normal. [...]. Falling down with your face to the ground? Perhaps a tad abnormal.

Are you being deliberately vague by not qualifying your statement? "a tad abnormal" when praying? or "a tad abnormal" when distressed? or "a tad abnormal" when giving ones inaugural speech for the Presidency"?

Are you avoiding saying specifically under which circumstances someone falling to the ground and lowing ones head would be "a tad abnormal" because if we apply the situations Jesus was reportedly in (ie extremely distresssed, about to die, and in profound prayer) your assessment that his actions were (in those circumstances) "a tad abnormal" would in fact be inaccurate, and that Jesus' reported actions were in perfectly in line with how many religious (Jesus was religious) people would act, ie it was normal?


JW