If Jesus died to "pay for our sins"

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Elijah John
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If Jesus died to "pay for our sins"

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

If Jesus' death was a sacrifice to "pay for our sins", why didn't Jesus present himself to the temple priests and say "I have come to offer myself as a sacrifice to pay for the sins of the world"?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: If Jesus died to "pay for our sins"

Post #11

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Elijah John wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Because the temple, the Priesthood, the animal sacrifices, etc were the TYPE, Jesus was the antitype.


JW
Why do you suppose Moses never explained that ... nor did Jesus himself?
>> Jesus did but evidently you are not aware of it.
Question: "What is biblical typology?"

Answer: Typology is a special kind of symbolism. (A symbol is something which represents something else.) We can define a type as a “prophetic symbol because all types are representations of something yet future. More specifically, a type in scripture is a person or thing in the Old Testament which foreshadows a person or thing in the New Testament.

source: http://www.gotquestions.org/typology-Biblical.html

QUESTION: Did Jesus use "typology"? ie Did he refer to prior biblical patterns being fulfilled in himself?


QUESTION: Did Jesus indicate that Prophecies and writings in the Hebrew bible actually alluded to him (Jesus)?
LUKE 24:27
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

JOHN 4: 25, 26
The woman said to him: “I know that Messiʹah is coming, who is called Christ. Whenever that one comes, he will declare all things to us openly. Jesus said to her: “I am he, the one speaking to you."

LUKE 18: 31
And He took the twelve aside and said to them, Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things which are written through the prophets about the Son of Man will be accomplished. ASV

CONCLUSION: Far from not "mentioning" the fact that the hebrew bible writings were presenting "Types" to his "antytype", Jesus frequently alluded to the fact that they did, outlining for his disciples the real significance of Hebrew writings and events. In short, the religious traditions (centered on the temple, animal sacrifices, etc) proved an inferior type to the antitypical "lamb of god" (compare 1 Pet 1: 18, 19)



How was SOLOMON like the Messiah? [Her 1:5]
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Re: If Jesus died to "pay for our sins"

Post #12

Post by Elijah John »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Elijah John wrote: Why do you suppose Moses never explained that to the people? Nor did the prophets...?

Because no single Prophet had a revelation of the entire scope of God's plan. Abraham was never told about Moses, Moses didn't know about the temple, David never knew that about the destruction of Jerusalem, Jeremiah was told of a new covenant (but didn't know who the Messiah would be). Given that the above demonstrates conclusively that Divine revelation is ALWAYS progressive. why would you presume that Moses would necessarily have all the details about the coming Messiah or the full significants of the temple arrangement in the God's long term plans. (NOT a rhetorical questions, you may answer if you wish).


JW
Here's my take on "progressive revelation". Moses and the Law, including animal sacrifice. Then the prophets, including Hosea, John the Baptist, and Jesus...in that order, came along and preached variations of
"I desire mercy and NOT sacrifice"
. So far...progression, and progressive enlightenment. From primitve, blood-soaked barbarism, to civilized mercy and knowledge of God.

Then along comes Paul and turns Jesus martyrdom into a human sacrifice. Regression.

Or if it was not regression, you have to believe that Paul was more important than even Jesus in the chain of revelation.

Is this the case? Or did ultimate revelation culminate in Jesus. Are we to suppose we needed Paul to interpret Jesus for us?

Also, I don't think you addressed the problem of human sacrifice. A HUGE problem for Jesus' own Judaism. Human sacrifice was a barbaric practice of the Jew's pagan neighbors, something that YHVH God detested. And JW's believe Jesus was human and not God, right? Why would YHVH demand the blood of his favorite human, Jesus, then as an appeasing sacrifice?

How do you reconcile that?

And what does that say about the Father to suggest He must be appeased by blood, bought, bribed in effect, in order to forgive sin?

Doesn't that suggest that mercy is something foreign of His nature?

On the contrary, the "Old" Testament suggests that mercy is part of His nature. And that He forgives "
for his name's sake"
, and again,
for his OWN sake
. (not for anyone else's sake, including Jesus.)

Even Muslims teach that mercy is part of the very nature of God. At the beginning of every Surah in the Quran, Mohammad asserts the merciful nature of God. He does this with the invocation."In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful."
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: If Jesus died to "pay for our sins"

Post #13

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Elijah John wrote:
Here's my take on "progressive revelation". Moses and the Law, including animal sacrifice. Then the prophets, including Hosea, John the Baptist, and Jesus...in that order, came along and preached variations of
"I desire mercy and NOT sacrifice"
.
That's very convenient but it's hardly factual.

THE PATRIARCHS

Abel offered a blood sacrifice and it was accepted. There was no revelation to Him that sacrifices were not desired.

Noah was told specifically to keep "clean" animals one of which he sacrificed to God, that God in turn responded to that sacrifice favorably was epitomized by the rainbow and its associated peace covenant.

Abraham was pointed to offer a ram after having been specifically asked to sacrifice his son. God indicated that his faithfulness in this case would result in a future blessing for himself and mankind.

Isaac, Jacob built alters and offered sacrifices. No displeasure was expressed towards these men.

"Job would make arrangements for them to be purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular custom." - Job 1:5


PROPHETS

SAMUEL
or God is with you. 8 “Go down ahead of me to Gilgal. I will surely come down to you to sacrifice burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, but you must wait seven days until I come to you and tell you what you are to do.� - 1 Sam 10:7-8 NIV

DAVID
At that time, when David saw that the LORD had answered him on the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite, he offered sacrifices there. - I Chron 21:28

JEREMIAH
But worship only the LORD, who brought you out of Egypt with great strength and a powerful arm. Bow down to him alone, and offer sacrifices only to him. - 2 Kings 17:36

EZEKIEL
This is what the Sovereign LORD says: In the first month on the first day you are to take a young bull without defect and purify the sanctuary. 19 The priest is to take some of the blood of the sin offering and put it on the doorposts of the temple, on the four corners of the upper ledge of the altar and on the gateposts of the inner court.

ZECHARIAH
Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the LORD of hosts; and all who sacrifice will come and take of them and boil in them. And there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts in that day. - Zech 14:21 NASB

JOHN THE BAPTIST
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! - Jh 1:29

JESUS
On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus' disciples asked him, "Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?"

CONCLUSION: Neither the Patriarchs nor The Prophets nor Jesus himself indicated that Jehovah did not want faithful individuals to offer appropriate sacrifices in compliance with the law. Jesus never opposed anything in the Mosaic law, including the requirement for blood sacrifices. On the contrary he complied with, them.


JW
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: If Jesus died to "pay for our sins"

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Re: If Jesus died to "pay for our sins"

Post #15

Post by Elijah John »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Elijah John wrote:
Here's my take on "progressive revelation". Moses and the Law, including animal sacrifice. Then the prophets, including Hosea, John the Baptist, and Jesus...in that order, came along and preached variations of
"I desire mercy and NOT sacrifice"
.
That's very convenient but it's hardly factual.

THE PATRIARCHS

Abel offered a blood sacrifice and it was accepted. There was no revelation to Him that sacrifices were not desired.

Noah was told specifically to keep "clean" animals one of which he sacrificed to God, that God in turn responded to that sacrifice favorably was epitomized by the rainbow and its associated peace covenant.

Abraham was pointed to offer a ram after having been specifically asked to sacrifice his son. God indicated that his faithfulness in this case would result in a future blessing for himself and mankind.

Isaac, Jacob built alters and offered sacrifices. No displeasure was expressed towards these men.

"Job would make arrangements for them to be purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular custom." - Job 1:5


PROPHETS

SAMUEL
or God is with you. 8 “Go down ahead of me to Gilgal. I will surely come down to you to sacrifice burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, but you must wait seven days until I come to you and tell you what you are to do.� - 1 Sam 10:7-8 NIV

DAVID
At that time, when David saw that the LORD had answered him on the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite, he offered sacrifices there. - I Chron 21:28

JEREMIAH
But worship only the LORD, who brought you out of Egypt with great strength and a powerful arm. Bow down to him alone, and offer sacrifices only to him. - 2 Kings 17:36

EZEKIEL
This is what the Sovereign LORD says: In the first month on the first day you are to take a young bull without defect and purify the sanctuary. 19 The priest is to take some of the blood of the sin offering and put it on the doorposts of the temple, on the four corners of the upper ledge of the altar and on the gateposts of the inner court.

ZECHARIAH
Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the LORD of hosts; and all who sacrifice will come and take of them and boil in them. And there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts in that day. - Zech 14:21 NASB

JOHN THE BAPTIST
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! - Jh 1:29

JESUS
On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus' disciples asked him, "Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?"

CONCLUSION: Neither the Patriarchs nor The Prophets nor Jesus himself indicated that Jehovah did not want faithful individuals to offer appropriate sacrifices in compliance with the law. Jesus never opposed anything in the Mosaic law, including the requirement for blood sacrifices. On the contrary he complied with, them.


JW
You've only demonstrated the Bible is contradictory on this matter.

You've dismissed the pattern established by the prophets, not by refuting the verses I have provided here and elsewhere, but only by citing contrary verses.

There are many others, but how do you explain Hosea 6.6 which Jesus quoted. You still have not refuted Micah 6.6-8, 1 Samuel 15.22, and Hosea 6.6. And there are others that clearly teach that YHVH God does not need, nor does He desired blood. Animal OR human.

You still have not answered how you reconcile human sacrifice, and have not demonstrated that Jesus martyrdom WAS an acceptable sacrifice to the Father. Other than Paul's opinion that it was such.

Sayin' so does not make it so.

And you still have not explained why you consider Paul's opinion more important than Jesus, in the chain of progressive revelation.

And you have still not answered what the supposed demand for blood says about the Father, and His nature. Is mercy an inherent part of His nature, or does he need to be bought, bribed or appeased?

Also remember, John's baptism was one of "repentance for THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS"

No blood involved. And Jesus being called the "lamb" in that verse is a bit of evangelical revisionism. Notice John does not mention anything about blood before that remark. Yet folks were being baptized, walking away not even hearing about Jesus impending so-called sacrifice, believing their sins were forgiven, awaiting the apocalyptic intervention of YHVH.

In fact, John's baptism was not even part of normative Judaism, but a prophetic innovation. An alternate and a rebuke to the bloody Temple system.

Jesus too, demonstrated his contempt for the Temple system by overturning the tables. Notice he did not say "my house shall be a house of sacrifice...". No, rather Jesus quoted the prophet when he said "my house shall be a house of prayer".
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Elijah John
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Re: If Jesus died to "pay for our sins"

Post #16

Post by Elijah John »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
CONCLUSION: Neither the Patriarchs nor The Prophets nor Jesus himself indicated that Jehovah did not want faithful individuals to offer appropriate sacrifices in compliance with the law. Jesus never opposed anything in the Mosaic law, including the requirement for blood sacrifices. On the contrary he complied with, them.


JW
You've only demonstrated the Bible is contradictory on this matter.

And where the Bible conflicts, we believers are compelled to choose sides.

You have chosen the Conventional Christian prescedent, the belief that YHVH God needs blood.

I have chosen to believe YHVH God values obedience, repentance, knowledge of God, thanks and praise etc...non-bloodly means of atonement, over bloody means. And that choice is also Biblical.

Jews, Muslims and unconventional Christians have focused on God's merciful nature, and non-bloody provisions.

We can leave it to the reader and would-be believers to decide which picture of God they want to follow. The bloodthirsty one, or the merciful one.

You've dismissed the pattern established by the prophets, not by refuting the verses I have provided here and elsewhere, but only by citing contrary verses.

There are many others, but how do you explain Hosea 6.6 which Jesus quoted. You still have not refuted Micah 6.6-8, 1 Samuel 15.22, and Hosea 6.6. And there are others from Jeremiah, King David, Solomon etc that clearly teach that YHVH God does not need, nor does He desire blood. Animal OR human.

You still have not answered how you reconcile human sacrifice, and have not demonstrated that Jesus martyrdom WAS an acceptable sacrifice to the Father. Other than Paul's opinion that it was such.

Sayin' so doen't make it so.

And you still have not explained why you consider Paul's opinion more important than Jesus, in the chain of progressive revelation. Sure, the prophets may have been self-contradictory, but they too were evolving. AWAY from blood-sacrifice, and towards pure repentance. The references to blood sacrifice were vestigal, like the paw bones in cetaceans.

But then again, I guess you don't believe in physical evolution either?

And you have still not answered what the supposed demand for blood says about the Father, and His nature. Is mercy an inherent part of His nature, or does he need to be bought, bribed or appeased?

Also remember, John's baptism was one of "repentance for THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS"

No blood involved. And Jesus being called the "lamb" in that verse is a bit of evangelical revisionism. Notice John does not mention anything about blood before that remark. Yet folks were being baptized, walking away not even hearing about Jesus impending so-called sacrifice, believing their sins were forgiven! They did this awaiting the apocalyptic intervention of YHVH.

In fact, John's baptism was not even part of normative Judaism, but a prophetic innovation. An alternate and a rebuke to the bloody Temple system.

Jesus too, demonstrated his contempt for the Temple system by overturning the tables.

Also Jesus taught forgiveness in the LORD's prayer, without mentioning blood...at all.

And the beattitude, "blessed are the merciful, they shall receive mercy"

He didn't say "blessed are the blood-washed"...
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: If Jesus died to "pay for our sins"

Post #17

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Elijah John wrote: You've only demonstrated the Bible is contradictory on this matter..
Well if its "contradictory on this matter" how did you come to your conclusion of what it had to say? Did you just draw a straw? Close your eyes and sitck a pin in a list of options or just decide which take you liked most and decide anything that wasn't to your liking was "false"? (I do believe that last option is called "cherry picking").



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Romans 14:8

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Re: If Jesus died to "pay for our sins"

Post #18

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Elijah John wrote:how do you explain Hosea 6.6 which Jesus quoted.
QUESTION: Does Hosea 6:6 imply that God from the 6th century BCE no longer wanted the Mosaic law covenant (with it's system of sacrifices) to be obeyed?

There are those that profess that Hosea 6:6 is a declaration for an end to the religious sacrificial system. Hosea reads "For in loyal love I delight, not in sacrifice, And in the knowledge of God, rather than in whole burnt offerings.".

Firstly notice that the structure is presented as a suppositional choice: love rather than sacifice, knowledge rather than offerings. In thoer words Hoseas 6:6 is highlighting the what is more valuable, not advocating the prohibtion of one. The context of the verses are that Jehovah was addressing the disloyal nation of Israel that had repeatedly rejected God's standards and violated his laws (see verse 7-10) yet paradoxically their religious leaders thought that because they continued to perform the religious rituals dictated by the law their "shameful conduct" would be excused (verse 9). It is in this context that God declared "I want mercy not sacrifice" not to free the israelites from the obligation to keep the Mosaic law but to highlight that sacrifice without moral loyalty is worthless.
To illustrate: An adulterous man violates his marriage vows unapologetically but makes sure to give his wife a piece of expensive jewellry when he gets home. If the wife throws the jewels in his face saying "I want faithfulness not jewellry" would it be fair to say the wife has just declared she doesn't like or want her husband ever to offer her any jewellry in the future? Has she declared a prophibiion on Jewels? Or would it be more logical to conclude that she is trying to commuicate that while Jewellery and presents would normally be appreciated if they were offered in love, jewels are no substitute for marital fidelity. Jewellry or any other present only has value if they stem from an underlying presence of love and faithfullnes, they should be the outside representation of inner emotions and their corresponding fine acts not a replacement.
In the same way the rituals and sacrifices connected with the Jewish religious system were not an excuse for bad conduct nor could they validate insincerity or lack of love. It is for this reason Jesus twice quoted Hosea 6:6. Never once did Jesus do so in the context of whether or not sacrifices should literally be offered. Both quotation were to the religious leaders of his day, who scrupiously kept the Mosaic law (which included ritualistic sacrifices) but dd not do so from a place of love or moral excellence.

Notice Jesus words in MATTHEW 9:13 Jesus said: "Go, then, and learn what this means: ‘I want mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came to call, not righteous people, but sinners.� Notice Jesus is not apply Hosea 6:6 to the ceasing of offering sacrifices but his application was to be merciful to sinners? In short he did NOT say "Go, then, and learn what this means: ‘I want mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I don't want you to make any sacrifices any more".

And again at MATTHEW 12: 7: where Jesus declared "However, if you had understood what this means, ‘I want mercy and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless ones." Notice Jesus didn NOT say "if you had understood what [Hosea 6:6] means, you would not have still been offering blood sacrifices." Jesus implied the MEANING of Hosea is not to "condemn the guiltless ones". In other words, Hosea is not about discouraging the use of sacrifices, it meaning was about encouraging mercy and love along with those sacrifices.


CONCLUSION: To use Hosea 6:6 as support for the discontinuation of the Mosaic laws on sacrifices is a gross misinterpretation. Hosea was merely highliging that sacrifices made by those that are immoral or dismissive of the more important values have invalidated their sacrifices in the eyes of God.




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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: If Jesus died to "pay for our sins"

Post #19

Post by ttruscott »

marco wrote: The whole negative concept of Christ coming to pay for sins is not, apparently, the positive message that Christ admitted to: to bring truth to people.
...and the positive truth He came to bring was that His death was for our atonement unto our perfection and was the perfect once and for all time fulfillment of the animal sacrifice system YHWH set in place.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: If Jesus died to "pay for our sins"

Post #20

Post by ttruscott »

Zzyzx wrote: .
JehovahsWitness wrote: Divine revelation is ALWAYS progressive.
How does that differ from "make it up as we go along"?
Since you asked:
One is the Christian pov of their experience with GOD and the other is the pov of a secular materialist who cannot have a Spiritual experience. Or so says scripture.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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