One More Reason Religion Does Not Come From God

[Danmark]

All three of the Abrahamic Religions are sexist. More in the past than today, Judaism and Christianity have been blatantly sexist. Islam, being about 1000 years behind is still violently sexist. The persistent notion perpetuated by the the three Abrahamic religions that women should be subservient to men, are inferior to men, are only here to serve men, is as clear an indicator as any that these religions come from men, not God. We know this because the claim is false. We know that women are our equals... at least.

Edited by Moderator Zzyzx (on request) to add:

1. Are these religions sexist?

2. If so, what are the reasons?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Danmark]

People from many religions do indeed show evidence of being sexist, but there is nothing in the bible that is sexist; thus we can suppose that a religion that reflects God's standards will not be "sexist". The Christian bible does not promote subservience nor does it teach that women are inferior to men; women are considered equal but different with different roles.

sexism
prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

subservient

1) prepared to obey others unquestioningly.
2) Less important
3) serving as a means to an end.

#QUESTION: Does the bible imply women should be subservient?

In colloquial speech the word "subservient" is usually used as a synonym of being submissive and ready to obey. In this sense all believers are encouraged to be "subservient" or obediant to God and those that have a relative amount of authority over them. For example men and women are encouraged to submit to legitimate authorities such as governments, their employers, teachers etc. Married women to their husbands and children to their parents. Men to the "older men" in the congregation, the older men to the congregational "overseers" (some translations "bishops") and those overseers to each other. Indeed in the bible the only individual that has nobody with any authority over them is Almighty God.

Thus logically, since both men and women are encouraged to be submissive to authority, there it is no more evidence of encouraging "sexism" (or prejudice) than obeying Policeman's instructions would be evidence of "sexism" or prejudice.

Further, the word "subservient" as defined in most dictionaries differs from how most people use the word. It actually means obeying "without question". This implies that whether we are told to do right or wrong, obedience would be required, without reason and judement and disobedience would always be wrong. In the purest sense of the world then the bible absolutely does not encourage subservience, either for men or women, since Christians are, for example, encouraged to reason and measure if their actions are morally correct regardlesss of what authority figure tells them to do.

For example, a husband demands his wife perform an act or help him in an endeavor which is illegal or which violates her conscience. Does the bible tell her to obey "without question"? No! The bible principles put definit limits on her obediance to her head (her husband) if what he asks of her would violate her Christian trained conscience she would refuse to obey him.

CONCLUSION: The bible does not instruct women to blindly obey their husbands without question but rather encourages married women, as it does equally to all men, to recognize and submit to legitimate authority which is always relative. All humans on earth are considered to have a legitimate authority to which they owe relative submission






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NOTE: Due to the fact that the lead question is ("One More Reason Religion Does Not Come From God") based on the suppostion of God's existence, I take it the answer can be based on the same supposition (ie that the existence of God will not be challenged in this thread).

[Danmark]

All three of the Abrahamic Religions are sexist. More in the past than today, Judaism and Christianity have been blatantly sexist. Islam, being about 1000 years behind is still violently sexist. The persistent notion perpetuated by the the three Abrahamic religions that women should be subservient to men, are inferior to men, are only here to serve men, is as clear an indicator as any that these religions come from men, not God. We know this because the claim is false. We know that women are our equals... at least.

Long time no posts...good to see you back

Know with what proofs if I may ask though I bet you are just advancing the current modern OPINION of equality.

[Thanks for the personal note. I guess I'm phasing out my participation here. Too much recycling of the same ideas and arguments I guess.]

Yes, I think you are correct, I AM advancing the current view (at least in Western culture) about the equality of women. Do you consider women inferior to men? Perhaps that is an unfair way to put the question. I suppose one could claim they are just not equals, but different; that the genders are different, but valued equally? But it seems to me that in both the Abrahamic scriptures and most cultures until very recently, women are relegated to inferior, non leadership roles.

[Elijah John]

I always thought that the supposed fact that God has a Son, and not a daughter was sexist.

To me that is evidence that God has no literal offspring, else why a son and not a daughter too?

I just cannot understand why (how) any woman could embrace a religion that teaches God has a literal Son, and not a daughter too. At least in Fundamentalist/Evangelical form. Perhaps that is where the near deification of Mary mother of Jesus comes into play.

The attribution of male gender to the Father God can be seen as evidence of the patriarchal bias of the times, and does not in and of itself render Abrahamic religion as wholly "man-made". Most thinking religonists see the Creator God more of a trancendent "parent" as opposed the the male Father. We retain the wording as a nod to tradition, it seems.

And to give some credit to Islam, Allah is never mentioned as male, to my recollection anyway.

It should be pointed out that modern Judaism, (Reform and Orthodox) and modern Christianity, (non-Fundamentalist) do not practice institutionalized sexism. Except for the prohibition of women-priests.

But even in Evangelical circles, women preach, teach and are ordained as pastors. This in contradiction to the dictates of Paul.

But Islam is still afflicted by systematic oppression of women, from violent denial of human rights, to more subtle forms.

Founding sexism was part of the origin of Abrahamic religion. As were some other things of the primitive past.(blood sacrifice, Levitical law, etc.) and Sharia still today.

But that does not invalidate the possibility of Divine origins of this brand of religion as a whole, it only establishes the liklihood of human contamination mixed with Divine inspiration. That is IF, one assumes Divine inspiration from the start, which I do.

Ideas of oppression etc, are the human contaminated part, ideas of justice, love, mercy, etc. or as Lincoln would put it "the better angels of our nature" are the Divine part.

And it should also be noted, that considering the context of respective culture and time, Judaism and Christianity could be seen as more advanced, in comparison to the societies from which they emerged.

Even in Islam, women were granted property rights, the right to divorce, and baby girls were not buried in the desert, that was practiced by pagan Arabs, but forbidden in Mohammad's brand of monotheism.

It is a tragic shame that Islam has not progressed too much further beyond that that point.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 1 by Danmark]

There is nothing in the bible that is sexist.

sexism
prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

Well... let's look at some passages that certainly appear to fit the definition you've offered:

There are many passages that reflect sexism, starting at the beginning all the way thru to the New Testament.

Genesis 3:16:

To the woman he said,

I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children.
Your desire shall be for[f] your husband,
and he shall rule over you.

1 Corinthians chapter 14:
As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

1 Corinthians 11:

But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. . . .For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. (For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.)

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 14 by Danmark]

My understanding is that just quoting scriptures without making a point is I believe not considered appropriate in this debating forum even if in your opinion the point is self evident (I'm sure a moderator will correct me if I am mistaken). What was the point you feel these passages prove and why? If you present your rationale and conclusion then I will consider responding.

JW

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 1 by Danmark]

I fully agree that the Abrahamic religions are sexist. I also agree that in most respects women should be treated as equals to mean. However, I definitely don't agree that men and women are equal in every way and I'm sick of the political correctness that seems to try and define us as completely equal in all respects.
....

It is obvious men and women are different, tho' we are learning that there is more of a continuum than an absolute divide. Nature does not seem to follow our categories precisely.
Equality should, of course, not be confused with sameness. We are all different. When we speak of sexism we are talking about inequality of opportunity. Women should not be denied leadership positions SOLELY because of their gender. Men should not be given better opportunities ONLY because the are men. Yet this is taught in scripture and practiced today by Christians who use the Bible to justify their beliefs.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 14 by Danmark]

My understanding is that just quoting scriptures without making a point is I believe not considered appropriate in this debating forum even if in your opinion the point is self evident (I'm sure a moderator will correct me if I am mistaken). What was the point you feel these passages prove and why? If you present your rationale and conclusion then I will consider responding.

JW

I think if you reread my post and consider it was in response to your claim you will understand the passages develop the argument without further explanation:

JW:

There is nothing in the bible that is sexist.

Quote:

sexism
prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

Danmark:

Well... let's look at some passages that certainly appear to fit the definition you've offered:

What is there about men being "made to rule over women" that is NOT sexist?

If you do not want to respond to these examples of obvious sexism, I will understand.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 14 by Danmark]

My understanding is that just quoting scriptures without making a point is I believe not considered appropriate in this debating forum even if in your opinion the point is self evident (I'm sure a moderator will correct me if I am mistaken). What was the point you feel these passages prove and why? If you present your rationale and conclusion then I will consider responding.

JW

Moderator Clarification

Not so, Danmark was clearly presenting his scriptural references as contrary evidence and pretty much indicated this in his framing, introductory comment.

What is forbidden is presenting scripture with no framing comment at all.

Rules
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______________

Moderator clarifications do not count as a strike against any posters. They serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received and/or are given at the discretion of a moderator when he or she feels a clarification of the rules is required.

[Danmark]

[Replying to Danmark]

Is it sexist? I'm not a student of the Koran, but here's some biblical evidence to the contrary.

Let's just look at Eve for a second - I know it looks bad for her on the surface, but I think we need to read deeper than usual... She's the one who talks to the serpent. She's the one who decides to eat the fruit. She's the one who was made to 'help' Adam - a word typically used to characterize God in scripture, thus associating her closely to the divine / lady wisdom and, if we read it properly, making her a superior adviser to Adam versus an inferior servant...

All of this indicates leadership, not subordination. Now whether or not we can now blame her for the fall due to poor leadership is irrelevant: blameworthy or not, we already have in the story of Eve and the inception of humankind the revelation of a woman in charge.

Yes, it looks bad... because it IS bad.
This is classic sexism to blame ALL women and punish ALL women because of the act of ONE woman. And, BTW, it is pretty dishonest and cowardly for Adam to blame Eve for an act he freely joined. And the 'god' character buys this baloney and punishes all women more than men.
And I completely disagree with your analysis that this is somehow leadership without subordination. What is there about "rule over" that is so hard to understand?

Eve is being punished harder because, according to Adam, she had the temerity to TRY to show leadership. That's the very reason she is punished harder. The bible may just as well have said, "Get back in your place, woman!"

[Danmark]

As for the Quran:

"Quran (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also verse 4:176). In Islam, sexism is mathematically established.
Quran (2:282) - (Court testimony) "And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women." Muslim apologists offer creative explanations to explain why Allah felt that a man's testimony in court should be valued twice as highly as a woman's, but studies consistently show that women are actually less likely to tell lies than men, meaning that they make more reliable witnesses.

Quran (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"

Quran (5:6) - "And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it" Men are to rub dirt on their hands, if there is no water to purify them, following casual contact with a woman (such as shaking hands)."
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages ... -less.aspx