Why no straight answers?

[Zzyzx]

.
After eight years debating here I have YET to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs " including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human? None

Humans possess a soul? None

An afterlife exists? None

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described? None

God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None



Why no answers? Could it be refusal to admit that in the absence of verifiable information, accepting the basic beliefs of Christianity must be based on "Take my (or his) word for it" and that doing so is not a rational basis for making decisions on matters of importance?

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to post 548 by Erexsaur]

Taking what you said here for granted, the question is, will you concede that there is no god, should we another world that meets all of earth's conditions simultaneously? Or would you double down and say "Aha! An extremely small and next to impossible thing has happened twice! Now we are doubly sure there is a Sovereign Being of higher intelligence tailored our planet and this other one?"

[arian]

.
[Replying to post 543 by arian]

Thank you Arian, as always, for giving readers a Religionist viewpoint to compare to Non-Religionist viewpoints.

Hello Z, .. hey, just glad to help. Problem is that religion messed up science so bad that someone could say "BB-Evolution" and people will think "science".
Or say the word God, and they thing "religion", has gone completely backwards. Oh yeah, like all the MK-Ultra movies out there right Z?
Wait, .. never mind, you don't watch movies right? Or YouTube, ..

Pardon me, I thought perhaps I would have a little fun with this. I have no agenda as far as what you believe and no way to prove most of these, myself, of course. But when push comes to shove, most of us don't have first hand knowledge of most things we prefer to believe. Take global warming, for example. Why do I choose to believe the scientists that say it is a problem? Perhaps because their position seemed most convincing.

Yes their position is definitely very convincing, .. and they make sure it is by their weather modification abilities like; HAARP, Chem-trailing, intentional melting down power plants releasing so much radiation into our waters, air and soil that is mutating all biological life, plants and animals either into another species (which is actually the plan/hope) or into extinction (Satan's hope).
Notice that the OP does not ask about any of those topics. It asks if there is verifiable evidence to support Bible tales. Can we stay on that topic? OR, is it necessary to inject all sorts of notions? Such as

Talking about HAARP, Chem-trailing, intentional melting down power plants releasing so much radiation into our waters, air and soil that is mutating all biological life, plants and animals either into another species (which is actually the plan/hope) or into extinction (Satan's hope).

Interesting speculation " particularly the Satan part. Not related to the OP.

You don't like my "straight answers" Z?

But I personally have zero first hand knowledge of these things and my opinion is not worth much, I can quote someone else, perhaps. That goes for so many things we believe because none of us are authorities in everything we hold opinions on. We have accepted these things as true because of the convincing appeal offered by someone who has the credentials to make the claim.

You don't have first-hand knowledge?? Where have you been all your life?

Not everyone gets their knowledge from Youtube (or from television, movies, scifi, video games, sermons, or ancient tales).

Not everyone is convinced that Youtube represents first-hand knowledge.

So what represents first hand knowledge? Show me "first hand knowledge", .. please? I am dying to get first hand knowledge???

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human? None

It means Jesus was human,

Is this to claim that Jesus was not supernatural in any way? If so I agree " and accept that a Jesus-like character (not the same name or exact details necessarily) was a wandering preacher who got himself killed for bucking Roman and Jewish officials.

Supernatural, divine, witches, demons, warlocks, 666CERN, Vatican, .. none of this has anything to do with Jesus.

You said he "was a wandering preacher who got himself killed for bucking Roman and Jewish officials" Is this from first hand knowledge? Source please?

born of human, not the magical Mary the mother of all gods, but of a human virgin, a girl named Mary.

How do you know the girl was a virgin (never had intercourse)? Did she say so? Where?

WHO said she was a virgin? Did men who knew (or did not know) her SAY she was a virgin? How did they know? Even with modern medical knowledge and a detailed pelvic examination it CANNOT be determined if a woman has had intercourse.

But those ancient guys KNEW. Right?

I know right Z? Today someone says virgin, and everyone laughs. And as we can see, we can no longer say "Hello madam, or hello sir" because that's now a hate crime. You really must be living the dream, where you can laugh in the face of God and the whole world laughs with you, .. except for a few who haven't been diagnosed with cancer yet, right buddy?

Humans possess a soul? None

Well yes, Evolutionist humans are animals, so they don't have a soul, no free will nor a mind of their own. They are apes that have a brain

That's progress. But then it degenerates into:

with some liquid surrounding it which creates delusions on their brains no different than LSD. Only this liquid is from millions and billions of Carl Sagan years of evolution, which even with LSD inside it remains undiluted and in control, or soon after the LSD wears off the chemicals for some reason go back to reasoning and creating as before.

Hmm, .. what if they drain that mind/liquid, will the individual loose their mind??

Speaking of losing one's mind, LSD and liquid on the brain . . . . decorum and Forum Rules discourage further comment.

Actually, we do not possess a soul, we are a soul. I copied this from Strong's Concordance on Biblehub:

If Biblehub and Arian say so it MUST be true.

That's right, the body is of dust. It is Gods Spirit that He breathed into Adam that made him a "living being", or a "living soul". The body simply responds to the mind/spirit, but Gods Breath inside the body that makes us individual souls/beings.

So say unverified tales told by ancient storytellers. They MUST be right . . .

Has anyone verified Darwin's book yet? People quote it a lot, but has anyone actually seen Darwin? Did he even exist, or just a figment of the imagination of the brains evolving liquid?

An afterlife exists? None

Everyone keeps their loved ones "after life" living, heck even dogs do. So why is that, if the body is all there is?

Memories of deceased people do not indicate that the deceased was anything more than a human. Memories fade over generations and centuries.

How can we keep that person alive,

We CANNOT keep a dead person alive (though we can keep an almost-dead person alive beyond what would occur without medical intervention).

why would that person whose body is dead do the same? The spirit of man lives on, until we get a New body that will never die.

Interesting speculation (or is it wishful thinking?). Verification?

Just go to any funeral.

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

Many, many miracles happened since the Biblical ones,

There are many CLAIMS of miracles and no evidence that they are anything other than claims.

Kindly present readers with a list of miracles that can be verified as having occurred AND were of supernatural origin.

Miracles with supernatural origins is called magic. Go to Vegas, they can cut people in half, and bring them back whole again, .. magic, not a miracle.

I am a living, walking miracle myself.

No comment

Just ask those who lived through Vietnam and other atheistic created wars, they will also tell you they are living/walking miracles. Sure we bear the scars, but still.

Evidence of monkeys (or ANY species speciating) speciating into humans? None

Evidence from anthropology is difficult to understand, particularly for those predisposed to dismiss anything that contradicts their pet theories of why things are as they are " and those who lack the ability and motivation to study difficult subjects.

It is far easier to make up stories or accept those told by ancient writers " whose knowledge was evidently about the level characteristic of a couple or few thousand years ago.

Are stories of millions and billions of years ago more believable? What gives people the motivation to study, .. not difficult, but impossible to make out sci-fi stories of quantum specks popping in and out of nothing?

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described? None

What? there is all kinds of evidence of all that, but you would have to actually have a "mind", not brain-fluid to see/understand this.

Let's assume that not all readers are as handicapped mentally as this implies. Present them with evidence that:

The Earth stopped rotating sun stood still for hours
There was an earthquake and darkening of the sky at the time of the storied Crucifixion
That a star stopped over a given location
There was a worldwide flood to the tops of mountains that killed all animal life (including humans) except those aboard an ark

Sure, soon as you provide evidence for quantum specks in nothing, and that before space or time even existed! Or a monkey evolving into a man, then back to a monkey again as you claim humans are evolving monkeys, .. apes. Or that there are no valleys in the oceans, but that continents are just floating around on the water, .. lol, that one is my favorite. Let's not even bring up our moons formation, .. crazy-man, a real doobie there!

Even if someone was to ask the Lord to stop the sun for an hour or two today, once it started to move again, people would deny it happened. Gods miracles are always happening, accident near misses, car crashes, .. but people just write it off as "lucky".

To me, .. seeing the Honda ASIMO robot doing it's stuff, and I glance over to the scientists working on it I see the most amazing miracle, .. right there, that human scientist, and say: Wow, what an amazing God we have, to make that man there by hand, from atoms up when it took us all hundreds of years to put together that pitifully poor imitation of a human, that robot. How could anyone be so blind as not to see that?

I do have my own strange belief in stopping the world, so to speak.

I do not doubt that you have the claimed strange belief.

It isn't just Christian. But one way I have heard it put is that it is a stage of meditation.

Is this a claim that meditation stops the Earth from rotating?

I don't know, but I heard it does help one to become one with the universe!

Someday perhaps science will pinpoint what that phenomenon is, but in the meantime it satisfies me that science attributes a good number of positive effects on the human body from meditation.

Sure enough. Accept whatever parts of science seems to support your position and reject any that does not. That is known as confirmation bias and/or willful ignorance and/or cherry-picking.

Yes, .. cherry picking, that's it. Miracles are cherry picking by willful ignorance. Stories of "millions and billions of Carl Sagan Years ago" is where it's all at, .. all verifiable info there, tested, verified by the best German Sci-Fientists in the world. And they make their discoveries and achievements known too by their supernatural Kali Death-dances.

God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

Instead, .. Mother Nature does, right?

Nope. Nature doesn't care one way or another.

Boy, she sure makes a lot of "selections" what's good and what's bad for someone who doesn't care!? It's a "wait, .. select, .. wait, .. select" routine that goes on for millions and billions of years:
Father time: "wait!"
Mother nature: "select"
Father time: "wait!"
Mother nature: "select"
Father time: "wait!"
Mother nature: "select"
Father time: "wait!"

.. like that. Just one mistake and we wouldn't be here debating, or the universe could turn into a huge mutating tumor that forgets Mother Nature (that would show her, she don't care for us one way or another anyways, only about her selection). No Mother Nature, no selection, and with no selection the tumor would keep fluctuating in and out of nothing forever.

Again, I am a living proof that God intercedes in human affairs,

How so?

I'm still alive, just ask the Germans, even they admit it's a miracle.

He just doesn't "interfere" much as possible as Lucifer does.

Kindly cite verifiable evidence that either God or Lucifer actually interfere (intercede) in human affairs. Note the term verifiable " which means that the evidence presented can be checked for truth and accuracy.

The Germans and 666CERN with their LHC, and their ever evolving BB-evolution stories, .. can't get more verifiable than that!?

Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None

As evidence by??

If I made the claim I would have solid, verifiable evidence " or, more accurately, I would not be so foolish as to make the claim UNLESS I had reached that conclusion based upon sound, verifiable evidence " which I would be glad to cite if asked.

Have you even read the Bible Z? Or your anti-Bible anti-God religion just let you glance at it? I mean billions upon billions of people say those words in their speaks to them, as if it was a live person speaking to them on individual terms, each facing different problems too! What book on earth could come even close to that, .. huh?
None.
Only God could have orchestrated those individual writings that speaks for all times and for all occasions.
Do you want me to cite all those people?

Look who inspired Jane Roberts? Are you going to deny she was inspired by forces other than her own brain-liquid? How about Marshal Applewhite and his crew?

Let's add Martin Luther, Joseph Smith, Muhammad, Buddha, Paul/Saul, gospel writers, etc.

I would credit all of those people with expressing what they THOUGHT about supernatural entities and events. What they all have in common is that their stories cannot be shown to be anything OTHER than products of their own mind.

Sorry, but these people (except for Paul/Saul) quoted the Bible, one even copied it almost word to word, .. and you can easily tell who or what influenced them all. I mean come on Z, surely you can tell what spirit controlled these people, you can't be that far gone, .. are you?

I mean come on, you mean to tell me you couldn't tell the difference between Hitler's speeches and what you read in the Bible on Jesus speaking? That if you heard Hitler speaking to a million people, and when he was done, Jesus would come up to the podium and speak, that you couldn't tell what "Spirit/spirit" they spoke in?

Wow, now that's frightening.

[Erexsaur]

[Replying to Bust Nak]

To Zzyzx and Bust Nak for posts 549, 550, and 495.

Both of your conversions appear to be based on a concern whether our planetary system is the only one supporting life in the vast universe or not. I tend to think on this issue also.

If true that we arrived by chance evolution only through natural processes and the processes possible, you are correct that we may expect millions of life supporting systems similar to ours.

But the theory of evolution and the truth that God created cannot coexist.

To answer your question Bust Nak, whether God slipped in another inhabited life-supporting system similar to ours or not, I am only able to arrive to an answer from logic.

If there are other civilizations far away from earth, the fact that the Bible made no mention of them would bring me to the conclusion that their bi-i-i-iz-ness is nunna ours and our business is none of theirs. Take this only from me with no claimed authority behind this view. But my reasoning appears already contradicted by the Biblical fact that the sin of Adam corrupted the whole universe so that if there is life elsewhere, it too would be affected by Adam's sin.

As I consider the scant information given us on this issue, I would thus conclude that the Bible only contains needed documentation for our familiarity with God and our need for restored fellowship with Him and its availability. Or do we prefer a Holy Bible much too large to carry under our arms? We earthlings are responsible toward God for our sake only regardless whoever else may be out there. If so they would be no descendants of Adam.

I would also like to answer Zzyzx's post #495 before I go.

To you, Zzy:

Thank you for providing a place for people including me to express our hearts and minds as you indicated.

You also said,

I do NOT seek settlement with Theists / opponents / Apologists and do not care what they think or believe.

Are we at war? I hope not.


You said,

For instance: Is there verifiable evidence (not just conjecture or opinion) that:
Humans possess a soul that transcends death?
An afterlife exists as anything more than imagination?
Jesus was divine (or a god or part of a god) " or anything more than a wandering preacher?
Long-dead bodies come (or came) back to life?
A virgin was impregnated by a spirit?

All the above are BELIEFS / opinions / conjectures that have not been shown to be anything more than products of human imagination (as is the case for all claims and stories about supernatural gods and events) " no evidence " just talk.

There are only two digital states- 1 or 0. If Biblical truth and the gospel are untrue it is only another of many vain hopes and promises in the world that fails to deliver our life's efforts from dead-ends. But if true it is our hope and to our advantage to heed.

As for me, I am certainly happy that I don't live in a hopeless world! Aren't you? I only know that the gospel is real simply because it really fulfilled my personal desire for hope and purpose very well!

Take care,
Earl

[Zzyzx]

.

But the theory of evolution and the truth that God created cannot coexist.

Of course those theories can coexist " as theories.

When Creationists finally realize that they can no longer deny that evolution occurs they will likely switch to claiming that their favorite God started the evolutionary process so all that happens is his will. Bingo, conflict solved (in the minds of Believers).

Notice that is exactly what happened when Christians could no longer maintain that the universe revolves around the Earth.

Thank you for providing a place for people including me to express our hearts and minds as you indicated.

Thanks go to Otseng (NOT me). He provides the site and is responsible for all aspects.

I do NOT seek settlement with Theists / opponents / Apologists and do not care what they think or believe.

Are we at war? I hope not.

We are at debate " involving IDEAS that are in disagreement and conflict. We are not likely to settle the issue by compromise or actual combat. Similar debates have been going on for thousands of years " and often do (and did) result in actual wars " the height of stupidity in my opinion.

For instance: Is there verifiable evidence (not just conjecture or opinion) that:
Humans possess a soul that transcends death?
An afterlife exists as anything more than imagination?
Jesus was divine (or a god or part of a god) " or anything more than a wandering preacher?
Long-dead bodies come (or came) back to life?
A virgin was impregnated by a spirit?

All the above are BELIEFS / opinions / conjectures that have not been shown to be anything more than products of human imagination (as is the case for all claims and stories about supernatural gods and events) " no evidence " just talk.

There are only two digital states- 1 or 0.

Notice first, as I trust readers do, that no attempt was made to address five major issues that are basic to Christian beliefs and teachings. Spinning off to digital states is a red herring.

Real life seldom presents true dichotomies " because the number of alternatives in almost always more than two. False dichotomies such as true or false are typically products of limited thinking or limited knowledge of available alternatives. Partially true is an example.

I had no other choice is almost always false. There ARE other choices which are not apparent or acceptable to the speaker.

If Biblical truth and the gospel are untrue it is only another of many vain hopes and promises in the world that fails to deliver our life's efforts from dead-ends.

Agreed

But if true it is our hope and to our advantage to heed.

Unless one is dissatisfied with the life they live, what is the need for hope for something better or different?

Instead of hoping one can ACT to achieve or produce what they think best.

As for me, I am certainly happy that I don't live in a hopeless world! Aren't you?

My world, free of god beliefs, is FAR from hopeless " in fact that term has never applied in my life. I learned very early that objectives / goals are achieved by effort, NOT by wishing, hoping, praying. That works and has worked remarkably well for me over many decades.

I only know that the gospel is real simply because it really fulfilled my personal desire for hope and purpose very well!

I do not dispute those who maintain that THEY find hope and purpose in the Bible. However, I do dispute any claims that their need applies to others.

[For_The_Kingdom]

.
After eight years debating here I have YET to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs " including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

First off, I disagree that the Bible can't be used for historical inquiry.

Jesus was anything more than human? None

Historical evidence for the Resurrection.

Humans possess a soul? None

An afterlife exists? None

Argument from consciousness....will kill both of those birds with one stone.

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

Historical evidence for the Resurrection..if Jesus was who he said he was, that makes those Biblical miracles more likely than not.

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described? None

Same answer as above.

God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

Of course. Miracles are reported every day...but the unbeliever doesn't want any part of it, tho.

Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None

They were...allegedly.

Why no answers? Could it be refusal to admit that in the absence of verifiable information, accepting the basic beliefs of Christianity must be based on "Take my (or his) word for it" and that doing so is not a rational basis for making decisions on matters of importance?

No...examine the evidence, and have faith.

[Zzyzx]

.

.
After eight years debating here I have YET to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs " including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

First off, I disagree that the Bible can't be used for historical inquiry.

Nice dodge.

However, the question asks What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human? None

Historical evidence for the Resurrection.

WHAT historical evidence for the resurrection? There are STORIES in a book.

Kindly present evidence that the stories are true and accurate.

Humans possess a soul? None

An afterlife exists? None

Argument from consciousness....will kill both of those birds with one stone.

Another nice dodge.

Kindly present evidence that soul and afterlife are anything more than imaginary.

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

Historical evidence for the Resurrection..if Jesus was who he said he was, that makes those Biblical miracles more likely than not.

Since Jesus has NOT been shown to be anything more than a wandering Jewish preacher, and the resurrection has not been shown to have literally / really / actually occurred in the real world, that is NOT verification that the miracles were more likely than not.

Kindly differentiate between unverified stories and verifiable evidence.

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described? None

Same answer as above.

Since Jesus has NOT been shown to be anything more than a wandering Jewish preacher, and the resurrection has not been shown to have literally / really / actually occurred in the real world, that is NOT verification that the miracles were more likely than not.

Kindly differentiate between unverified stories and verifiable evidence.

God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

Of course. Miracles are reported every day...but the unbeliever doesn't want any part of it, tho.

Unusual events occur frequently. Some claim supernatural involvement BUT cannot demonstrate that claim is anything more than personal opinion / imagination / conjecture.

Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None

They were...allegedly.

Allegedly is the key word. Churchmen claim divine inspiration but cannot show that is true.

Did gospel writers claim to be divinely inspired? If (since) not, who is / was in a position to know if they were or not?

One can say, however, that gospel writers were inspired (motivated) to write their opinions about God.

Why no answers? Could it be refusal to admit that in the absence of verifiable information, accepting the basic beliefs of Christianity must be based on "Take my (or his) word for it" and that doing so is not a rational basis for making decisions on matters of importance?

No...examine the evidence, and have faith.

WHAT evidence? A book of stories that cannot be shown to be true? Take my word for it (or his or this book? Emotional appeals? Threats and promises for after you die?

[Erexsaur]

[Replying to Zzyzx]


Hello Zzyzx,

This is a reply to post 552.

In response to my statement, But the theory of evolution and the truth that God created cannot coexist. you said,

Of course those theories can coexist " as theories.

When Creationists finally realize that they can no longer deny that evolution occurs they will likely switch to claiming that their favorite God started the evolutionary process so all that happens is his will. Bingo, conflict solved (in the minds of Believers).

Notice that is exactly what happened when Christians could no longer maintain that the universe revolves around the Earth.

But creation truth and evolutionary theory cannot coexist as fact because they are diametrically opposed. Although some have, we Christians as a body will never compromise scriptures by giving in to any idea that God started evolution.

May I ask why the apparent rage to overcome us creationists instead of allowing scientific laws that support evolution to speak for themselves to convince us? Are there any such laws? If knowledge of evolution is based on true scientific observation as claimed, why are there also scientists on the creationists side? Have they not also authority to speak as scientists? Does truth divide its unbiased seekers called scientist?


In response to, Are we at war? I hope not. you said,

We are at debate " involving IDEAS that are in disagreement and conflict. We are not likely to settle the issue by compromise or actual combat. Similar debates have been going on for thousands of years " and often do (and did) result in actual wars " the height of stupidity in my opinion.

Jesus also dealt with conflicting ideas among leaders of His day and pointed out the underlying causes. Shouldnt the things He pointed out help us?

The gospel has faced its critics for more than 2000 years and withstood them to this day as the critics die out. If settlement is elusive, maybe we should ask ourselves whether the conflict is between us or is it from wars within our hearts. The warring heart is often where the trouble begins and are in need of solutions beyond intellectual debates. Truthful surrender is the answer.

For instance: Is there verifiable evidence (not just conjecture or opinion) that:
Humans possess a soul that transcends death?
An afterlife exists as anything more than imagination?
Jesus was divine (or a god or part of a god) " or anything more than a wandering preacher?
Long-dead bodies come (or came) back to life?
A virgin was impregnated by a spirit?

All the above are BELIEFS / opinions / conjectures that have not been shown to be anything more than products of human imagination (as is the case for all claims and stories about supernatural gods and events) " no evidence " just talk.

(I will answer the above further down.) In response to my statement, There are only two digital states- 1 or 0. you said,

Notice first, as I trust readers do, that no attempt was made to address five major issues that are basic to Christian beliefs and teachings. Spinning off to digital states is a red herring.

Real life seldom presents true dichotomies " because the number of alternatives in almost always more than two. False dichotomies such as true or false are typically products of limited thinking or limited knowledge of available alternatives. Partially true is an example.

The five items you listed all together represent one digital state because all are truth from God that requires trust and belief in Him. They are only a sampling of much more. The other digital state is not to trust and believe God. If thats the case, none of the five you listed would be believed. One may either believe or not believe God and theres no in-between state. As I said earlier, God proves Himself when believed. I say this by testimony.

If the five things including the resurrection and the virgin birth hardly appear as factual, how were you convinced that the whole universe with life in all of its immense complexity came about by random chance over millions of years with no intelligence at the helm? Please? I find that to be MUCH harder to believe! But if believed, is it not the consequences of the digital switch called choice that placed fallible man (such as the pseudo-scientific community) into the position of supreme authority instead of God as supreme?

The items you listed (as well as many more) occur in the supernatural realm that naturalistic thinking finds foolish and senseless. But regeneration elevates thinking to the spiritual level where all the items you listed begins to make sense and is thus perceived as true. As with the prodigal son that came to himself to return to his father, so is the individual that reignites his trust in the Sovereignty of God where it belongs without which its impossible to believe the items in your list. Your list of five is only a sampling of supernatural miracles.

Please excuse the offensive jargon Im about to use: Was your approximately 20 years religious experience accompanied by repentance, conversion, and regeneration? Your speech tends to force me to think the contrary.

What personal advantage does anyone gain by smearing anyone let alone God? I thought that one gains honor by giving honor to whom honor is due and that lifes protocol is to magnify superior authority. Who else but God gives us vital life, breadth, and our abilities? Is it Bugs Bunny?

For the person that yet insists on staying away from God, let him not worry. He would have long ago known very quickly had God decided to take his adverse thoughts seriously and had abandoned him! You would never want that to happen to you!! But God sometimes temporarily hides his face to remind us arrogant folks of our critical dependence on Him so that we would thus call on Him.

In response to But if true it is our hope and to our advantage to heed. you said,

Unless one is dissatisfied with the life they live, what is the need for hope for something better or different?

Instead of hoping one can ACT to achieve or produce what they think best.

But hope is what empowers action. What if all of ones abilities including that to act has been snatched?

Is there anyone anywhere so satisfied in life that he thinks he needs no hope for anything better? Please?

In response to my phrase, As for me, I am certainly happy that I don't live in a hopeless world! Aren't you? You said,

My world, free of god beliefs, is FAR from hopeless " in fact that term has never applied in my life. I learned very early that objectives / goals are achieved by effort, NOT by wishing, hoping, praying. That works and has worked remarkably well for me over many decades.

You expressed your faithfulness in attaining things you hoped for by necessary effort. Isnt that exactly what God wants of you and me? You are blessed! But what did you mean when you said, free of god beliefs? What if someone informs you that you would not have done anything including the good you said you did without Gods empowering you?

Idle wishful thinking and idle praying are not of God. For me to say, I hope and pray that you will gimmie gimmie a mega-dollar will not cut it! The word hope that I spoke of is hope proper, not the pie in the sky type. That including correctly exercised prayer are as essential as breath. Perceived loss of hope tends to kill effort.

In response to, I only know that the gospel is real simply because it really fulfilled my personal desire for hope and purpose very well! You said,

I do not dispute those who maintain that THEY find hope and purpose in the Bible. However, I do dispute any claims that their need applies to others.

OK. If someone generously gives me a sum of money to ease my financial burden and tells me that he has another sum to give you, what would you think if I told him to give your money to me instead because you don't need it because my financial needs do not apply to your financial needs? You would be very happy wouldn't you?


* * *

I have a question: Is it possible to include text in color in a post?

Blastcat, are you and Bustnak still there?

Take care,
Earl

[benchwarmer]

But creation truth and evolutionary theory cannot coexist as fact because they are diametrically opposed. Although some have, we Christians as a body will never compromise scriptures by giving in to any idea that God started evolution.

Hi Erexsaur, hope you don't mind me interjecting here as well.

In my opinion, I think you are metaphorically 'shooting yourself in the foot' by saying that the evolutionary theory cannot coexist with creation truth. First, the scientific theory of evolution does exist. It also has mountains of data from various fields of research that fit with the theory. There are recent experiments that show evolution happening in real time in the lab. What else do you call this biological evolution that we can see with our very eyes and have to deal with in our hospitals when 'superbugs' become antibiotic resistant? Do you have another theory that explains all of this?

Perhaps you, like some others creationists, are including abiogenesis along with the theory of evolution. For some reason, this seems like a common thread that I can't figure out what the source is.

At this point, as far as I know, science has no good working theory for abiogenesis i.e. data that shows it happening in a repeatable fashion under given conditions. Any theories that do exist regarding abiogenesis certainly don't have the data behind them like the TOE.

If you are going to say it's Creationism or the scientific theory of evolution, you've already lost, but you are also conflating two different things.

One is about how life started, the other is about how it changes over time.

[Zzyzx]

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In response to my statement, But the theory of evolution and the truth that God created cannot coexist. you said,

Of course those theories can coexist " as theories.

When Creationists finally realize that they can no longer deny that evolution occurs they will likely switch to claiming that their favorite God started the evolutionary process so all that happens is his will. Bingo, conflict solved (in the minds of Believers).

Notice that is exactly what happened when Christians could no longer maintain that the universe revolves around the Earth.

But creation truth and evolutionary theory cannot coexist as fact because they are diametrically opposed.

Creation truth? It has NOT been established that Creationism is a truth " or is anything more than an hypothesis (one down from theory), guess, myth, wishful thinking, religious propaganda.

Although some have, we Christians as a body will never compromise scriptures by giving in to any idea that God started evolution.

May I ask why the apparent rage to overcome us creationists instead of allowing scientific laws that support evolution to speak for themselves to convince us?

Apparent rage? Where the heck does that come from?

Most people learn science at the level of television shows and sermons (and perhaps even a high school or grade school course). However, if they have a serious infection they are likely to prefer recently developed antibiotics that are not yet compromised by microbes' genetic adaption (evolution) rather than older ones such as penicillin to which bacteria have adapted (genetically through generations " evolution).

Are there any such laws? If knowledge of evolution is based on true scientific observation as claimed, why are there also scientists on the creationists side?

There are millions of scientists worldwide. A few of them are likely to be supporters of any harebrained scheme.

Have they not also authority to speak as scientists? Does truth divide its unbiased seekers called scientist?

Sure, anyone can speak as whatever they wish. What they say can also be evaluated by others in the field.

Have Creationist scientist proposals become accepted in the scientific community and/or published in peer reviewed scientific journals?

In response to, Are we at war? I hope not. you said,

We are at debate " involving IDEAS that are in disagreement and conflict. We are not likely to settle the issue by compromise or actual combat. Similar debates have been going on for thousands of years " and often do (and did) result in actual wars " the height of stupidity in my opinion.

Jesus also dealt with conflicting ideas among leaders of His day and pointed out the underlying causes. Shouldnt the things He pointed out help us?

Perhaps words attributed to Jesus are useful to some people. However, they may be useless to others. I find very few, if any, to be useful in real life and/or different from what I have learned elsewhere " no Jesus required.

The gospel has faced its critics for more than 2000 years and withstood them to this day as the critics die out.

Defenders and Apologists die out as well. So what?

If settlement is elusive, maybe we should ask ourselves whether the conflict is between us or is it from wars within our hearts.

I, for one, prefer to think with my head.

The warring heart is often where the trouble begins and are in need of solutions beyond intellectual debates.

Those who dislike debate are welcome to abstain and to seek whatever solutions they wish elsewhere.

Truthful surrender is the answer.

Anyone who chooses surrender is welcome to that course.

The five items you listed all together represent one digital state because all are truth from God that requires trust and belief in Him. They are only a sampling of much more. The other digital state is not to trust and believe God. If thats the case, none of the five you listed would be believed. One may either believe or not believe God and theres no in-between state. As I said earlier, God proves Himself when believed.

The five things I listed are basic teachings of Christianity " that have NOT been shown to be anything more than storytelling, myth, fable, folklore, rumor, imagination. Calling them one digital state does not change anything " but may attempt to dodge, evade, obscure, etc.

I say this by testimony.

Testimony is worthless in debate. This is not a revival meeting

If the five things including the resurrection and the virgin birth hardly appear as factual, how were you convinced that the whole universe with life in all of its immense complexity came about by random chance over millions of years with no intelligence at the helm? Please?

Notice VERY carefully that I do not pretend to know how the universe originated or how life began. I leave the pretending to others " since that information is not beyond the speculation stage.

If I don't know something I say so " and do not make up or repeat stories to explain what I do not know.

I find that to be MUCH harder to believe!

What someone believes (or has trouble believing) is of no consequence in debate.

But if believed, is it not the consequences of the digital switch called choice that placed fallible man (such as the pseudo-scientific community) into the position of supreme authority instead of God as supreme?

Supreme Authority has not been shown to be anything more than speculation and opinon.

The items you listed (as well as many more) occur in the supernatural realm that naturalistic thinking finds foolish and senseless.

Naturalistic thinking finds that defenders of those notions CANNOT show they are anything more that unverifiable tales.

But regeneration elevates thinking to the spiritual level where all the items you listed begins to make sense and is thus perceived as true.

I, for one, live in a real world and deal with real, existing conditions. People promoting spirituality of various forms have attempted to claim that their beliefs apply to real life (or should apply to my life) " however, ALL their pontifications rely on Take my word for it (or his or this book) or Just BELIEVE and you will see. I don't buy into that.

As with the prodigal son that came to himself to return to his father, so is the individual that reignites his trust in the Sovereignty of God where it belongs without which its impossible to believe the items in your list. Your list of five is only a sampling of supernatural miracles.

Correction: My list is five CLAIMED (unverified) supposed supernatural miracles. None can be shown to have happened, literally, in the real world.

Please excuse the offensive jargon Im about to use: Was your approximately 20 years religious experience accompanied by repentance, conversion, and regeneration? Your speech tends to force me to think the contrary.

I do not claim twenty years of religious experience. Although I was required to go to church until about age twelve, and to Catholic school (for a while), even as an eight or ten year old I rejected the indoctrination attempts and did not accept as truthful and accurate the tales told by religionists " starting with talking snakes and donkeys.

What personal advantage does anyone gain by smearing anyone let alone God?

Smearing God? I, for one, debate against many who claim to KNOW about God(s).

Correctly stating that verifiable evidence has not been provided to support god theories is NOT smearing God.

I thought that one gains honor by giving honor to whom honor is due and that lifes protocol is to magnify superior authority. Who else but God gives us vital life, breadth, and our abilities? Is it Bugs Bunny?

I can't speak for anyone other than myself, by my PARENTS were responsible for giving me vital life, breath and our abilities.

If someone else wishes to credit Bugs Bunny or a favorite god, that is not my problem.

For the person that yet insists on staying away from God, let him not worry.

Agreed. There is no need to worry about staying away from God or Bugs Bunny or Leprechauns.

He would have long ago known very quickly had God decided to take his adverse thoughts seriously and had abandoned him! You would never want that to happen to you!! But God sometimes temporarily hides his face to remind us arrogant folks of our critical dependence on Him so that we would thus call on Him.

Quite a sermon. Verification (in keeping with Forum Rules and Guidelines)?

In response to But if true it is our hope and to our advantage to heed. you said,

Unless one is dissatisfied with the life they live, what is the need for hope for something better or different?

Instead of hoping one can ACT to achieve or produce what they think best.

But hope is what empowers action.

Hope may be the empowering factor for some people. I, for one, am empowered by intelligent planning and successful execution to achieve objectives (and do and have achieved quite a few over a lifetime).

What if all of ones abilities including that to act has been snatched?

One works with what one has. I do not speculate about what if you couldn't.

Is there anyone anywhere so satisfied in life that he thinks he needs no hope for anything better? Please?

You're talking to one.

I could hope for more, more, more (of anything) but do not. You (generic term) REALLY have no understanding of my situation " as thinking I would be concerned about acquiring money clearly indicates.

In response to my phrase, As for me, I am certainly happy that I don't live in a hopeless world! Aren't you? You said,

My world, free of god beliefs, is FAR from hopeless " in fact that term has never applied in my life. I learned very early that objectives / goals are achieved by effort, NOT by wishing, hoping, praying. That works and has worked remarkably well for me over many decades.

You expressed your faithfulness in attaining things you hoped for by necessary effort.

Correction: I attained things I planned and worked for " not hoped for.

Isnt that exactly what God wants of you and me?

I do not pretend to know about such things and do not accept that others do either " or that their favorite God is anything more than imaginary.

You are blessed!

Correction: I am satisfied, fulfilled, (and successful in my own terms.)

But what did you mean when you said, free of god beliefs? What if someone informs you that you would not have done anything including the good you said you did without Gods empowering you?

My response is Prove it.

Idle wishful thinking and idle praying are not of God. For me to say, I hope and pray that you will gimmie gimmie a mega-dollar will not cut it! The word hope that I spoke of is hope proper, not the pie in the sky type. That including correctly exercised prayer are as essential as breath. Perceived loss of hope tends to kill effort.

Is there verifiable evidence that thinking that is not wishful and praying that is not idle ARE of God? Or is that just a platitude of one of the world's 4000 religions " that cannot be substantiated?

In response to, I only know that the gospel is real simply because it really fulfilled my personal desire for hope and purpose very well! You said,

I do not dispute those who maintain that THEY find hope and purpose in the Bible. However, I do dispute any claims that their need applies to others.

OK. If someone generously gives me a sum of money to ease my financial burden and tells me that he has another sum to give you, what would you think if I told him to give your money to me instead because you don't need it because my financial needs do not apply to your financial needs? You would be very happy wouldn't you?

I have absolutely no interest in, or care about, what you and your benefactor do with money.

It must be VERY difficult to comprehend that acquisition of money (or things) is of absolutely no interest to me. If something needs to be replaced, I simply buy a replacement " and did exactly that earlier today ordering a new computer (because my backup machine malfunctioned). No hope or gods or benefactors involved.

[Erexsaur]

[Replying to Zzyzx]

Hello ZZyzx,

I think that I have finally grasped what you are looking for. Please give me a little more time and I will do my best. OK?

Earl