Prayer?

[Lionel20]

I haven't visited the site in awhile. I'm sure this topic has been discussed over and over. But I want to engage, re-engage the forum on the issue of prayer in the traditional sense.

I believe in prayer in a sense of communicating with God - the eternal force from which the fundamental forces of the universe derived.

But I struggle to understand the prayer in the traditional ecclesiastical sense. Is it redundant to pray as a loved one is being admitted into the hospital for surgery 'God guide the Surgeons hands. Or give my loved one a speedy recovery'. Does the employ a God who would otherwise be idle? Or what about the Lord's prayer in Matthew 6, "[May] God's will be on earth as it is in heaven?". What does this mean? And is this possible?

What about "I plead the blood of Jesus over my children's room tonight", does that ensure their safety? If Christians really believe that these prayers offer divine protection why do they purchase alarm systems? Why are many US Christians supportive of a Political Party that obsesses over the 2nd Amendment? The Catholic church in particular, from at least 300-400 AD has launched countless military campaigns in the name of Jesus - which seems a contradiction.

Does anyone really believe in conventional prayer?

[Clownboat]

.

The forty days Jesus is said to have wondered the wilderness not eating corresponds with Moses fasting for 40 days according to the OT.

The Bible contains several instances of supposedly recording what people said and did when they were alone.

That is a literary style known as "omniscient narrator" -- the writer pretends to know what others think, say or do when alone with no observers. It is a writing style typically used by writers of fiction -- NOT by those writing literal accounts of events and conversations.


Regarding 40 days of fasting: Under some circumstances it is possible for people to live that long without eating -- particularly if they are overweight to begin. They cannot, however, go more than a very few days without liquids.

That's why I said I don't believe the 40 days in the wilderness story actually happened.

Yes, some people can live 40 days without eating but they aren't walking around wondering places like Jesus did according to that scripture.

How about the resurrection story?
I must assume you also know that a body that has decomposed for 3 days cannot reanimate?

40 days without food is hard for you to find credible, I get that. However, if you as a person have issues with the 40 days, I must assume the resurrection story is just that as well?
If not, please explain why one is believable and the other is not.

[marco]

That's unreasonable. Reporting on what Jesus did is not an act of faith. It's up to every individual whether they want to believe that or not.

When we are asked to assess the truth of a statement we can surely enquire where the information came from. Christ, as I said, took his apostles, left them and endured his agony unwitnessed. Problem.
Christ went into the wilderness and we have his REPORTED conversations with Satan. Unwitnessed. Problem.

I see nothing unreasonable in my objections.

As for the former, do we just disregard the naked man?

Who could ignore a naked man?

It is called a deus ex machine. An explanation that has absolutely nothing to do with the narrative. The entire Bible may be figurative. Why stop at one part?

[Claire Evans]

.

The forty days Jesus is said to have wondered the wilderness not eating corresponds with Moses fasting for 40 days according to the OT.

The Bible contains several instances of supposedly recording what people said and did when they were alone.

That is a literary style known as "omniscient narrator" -- the writer pretends to know what others think, say or do when alone with no observers. It is a writing style typically used by writers of fiction -- NOT by those writing literal accounts of events and conversations.


Regarding 40 days of fasting: Under some circumstances it is possible for people to live that long without eating -- particularly if they are overweight to begin. They cannot, however, go more than a very few days without liquids.

That's why I said I don't believe the 40 days in the wilderness story actually happened.

Yes, some people can live 40 days without eating but they aren't walking around wondering places like Jesus did according to that scripture.

How about the resurrection story?
I must assume you also know that a body that has decomposed for 3 days cannot reanimate?

Naturally, but Jesus resurrected in a gloried body not subject to death anymore according to the gospels.

40 days without food is hard for you to find credible, I get that. However, if you as a person have issues with the 40 days, I must assume the resurrection story is just that as well?
If not, please explain why one is believable and the other is not.

In the Bible, Jesus had a mortal body, not a glorified body, when wondering the wilderness.

[Claire Evans]

That's unreasonable. Reporting on what Jesus did is not an act of faith. It's up to every individual whether they want to believe that or not.

When we are asked to assess the truth of a statement we can surely enquire where the information came from. Christ, as I said, took his apostles, left them and endured his agony unwitnessed. Problem.
Christ went into the wilderness and we have his REPORTED conversations with Satan. Unwitnessed. Problem.

I see nothing unreasonable in my objections.

As for the former, do we just disregard the naked man?

Who could ignore a naked man?

It is called a deus ex machine. An explanation that has absolutely nothing to do with the narrative. The entire Bible may be figurative. Why stop at one part?

Lol. Your claim was that, in the Bible, there were no witnesses to Jesus being distressed and kneeling on the ground. I posted scriptures showing the contrary. I'm just saying what the Bible says. I'm not necessarily saying it is proof that that is what happened.

[Clownboat]

.

The forty days Jesus is said to have wondered the wilderness not eating corresponds with Moses fasting for 40 days according to the OT.

The Bible contains several instances of supposedly recording what people said and did when they were alone.

That is a literary style known as "omniscient narrator" -- the writer pretends to know what others think, say or do when alone with no observers. It is a writing style typically used by writers of fiction -- NOT by those writing literal accounts of events and conversations.


Regarding 40 days of fasting: Under some circumstances it is possible for people to live that long without eating -- particularly if they are overweight to begin. They cannot, however, go more than a very few days without liquids.

That's why I said I don't believe the 40 days in the wilderness story actually happened.

Yes, some people can live 40 days without eating but they aren't walking around wondering places like Jesus did according to that scripture.

How about the resurrection story?
I must assume you also know that a body that has decomposed for 3 days cannot reanimate?

Naturally, but Jesus resurrected in a gloried body not subject to death anymore according to the gospels.

40 days without food is hard for you to find credible, I get that. However, if you as a person have issues with the 40 days, I must assume the resurrection story is just that as well?
If not, please explain why one is believable and the other is not.

In the Bible, Jesus had a mortal body, not a glorified body, when wondering the wilderness.

I don't understand what this glorified body is. Why does adding a religious word before 'body' somehow make the impossible possible?

I would assume a glorified body could survive 40 days in a wilderness?
Where can I go to learn more about glorified bodies and what they can/can't do?

I ask because it seems you are using glorified in a way to make something appear more special than it really was.

Funny that huh?
glo·ri·fied
ˈɡlôrəˌfīd/
adjective
1.
(especially of something or someone ordinary or unexceptional) represented in such a way as to appear more elevated or special.

According to the definition, a glorified body would just be a regular body that people glorify to make it appear special.

[Claire Evans]

.

The forty days Jesus is said to have wondered the wilderness not eating corresponds with Moses fasting for 40 days according to the OT.

The Bible contains several instances of supposedly recording what people said and did when they were alone.

That is a literary style known as "omniscient narrator" -- the writer pretends to know what others think, say or do when alone with no observers. It is a writing style typically used by writers of fiction -- NOT by those writing literal accounts of events and conversations.


Regarding 40 days of fasting: Under some circumstances it is possible for people to live that long without eating -- particularly if they are overweight to begin. They cannot, however, go more than a very few days without liquids.

That's why I said I don't believe the 40 days in the wilderness story actually happened.

Yes, some people can live 40 days without eating but they aren't walking around wondering places like Jesus did according to that scripture.

How about the resurrection story?
I must assume you also know that a body that has decomposed for 3 days cannot reanimate?

Naturally, but Jesus resurrected in a gloried body not subject to death anymore according to the gospels.

40 days without food is hard for you to find credible, I get that. However, if you as a person have issues with the 40 days, I must assume the resurrection story is just that as well?
If not, please explain why one is believable and the other is not.

In the Bible, Jesus had a mortal body, not a glorified body, when wondering the wilderness.

I don't understand what this glorified body is. Why does adding a religious word before 'body' somehow make the impossible possible?

I would assume a glorified body could survive 40 days in a wilderness?
Where can I go to learn more about glorified bodies and what they can/can't do?

I ask because it seems you are using glorified in a way to make something appear more special than it really was.

Funny that huh?
glo·ri·fied
ˈɡlôrəˌfīd/
adjective
1.
(especially of something or someone ordinary or unexceptional) represented in such a way as to appear more elevated or special.

According to the definition, a glorified body would just be a regular body that people glorify to make it appear special.

Let's examine this scripture in Corinthians 15:


35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?� 36 Fool! What you sow will not come to life unless it dies. 37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare seed – perhaps of wheat or something else. 38 But God gives it a body just as he planned, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 39 All flesh is not the same: People have one flesh, animals have another, birds and fish another. 40 And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. The glory of the heavenly body is one sort and the earthly another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon and another glory of the stars, for star differs from star in glory. 42 It is the same with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living person�; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust, and like the one from heaven, so too those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, let us also bear the image of the man of heaven. 50 Now this is what I am saying, brothers and sisters: Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I will tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed – 52 in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 Now when this perishable puts on the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will happen, “Death has been swallowed up in victory.� 55 “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?� 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.



"Death results in the separation of the body and the soul. Our bodies go to the grave and our spirits go to the Lord. The separation continues until the resurrection: “Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment� (John 5:28–29)."

Our natural bodies are mortal and the spiritual body is not. A spiritual, glorified body does not mean we do not have our bodies but it is not subject to mortality. According to the gospels, Jesus resurrected with His earthly body but it was His spirit that had reunited with the body. I believe Jesus' spirit was in hell because He was so full of sin. Only by conquering death and sin, could His spirit reunite with His body. This resulted in His glorified body. So even though His resurrected body had earthly qualities like Jesus being able to eat, it also had other worldly ones as well. He could pass through walls, etc.

[Clownboat]

.

The forty days Jesus is said to have wondered the wilderness not eating corresponds with Moses fasting for 40 days according to the OT.

The Bible contains several instances of supposedly recording what people said and did when they were alone.

That is a literary style known as "omniscient narrator" -- the writer pretends to know what others think, say or do when alone with no observers. It is a writing style typically used by writers of fiction -- NOT by those writing literal accounts of events and conversations.


Regarding 40 days of fasting: Under some circumstances it is possible for people to live that long without eating -- particularly if they are overweight to begin. They cannot, however, go more than a very few days without liquids.

That's why I said I don't believe the 40 days in the wilderness story actually happened.

Yes, some people can live 40 days without eating but they aren't walking around wondering places like Jesus did according to that scripture.

How about the resurrection story?
I must assume you also know that a body that has decomposed for 3 days cannot reanimate?

Naturally, but Jesus resurrected in a gloried body not subject to death anymore according to the gospels.

40 days without food is hard for you to find credible, I get that. However, if you as a person have issues with the 40 days, I must assume the resurrection story is just that as well?
If not, please explain why one is believable and the other is not.

In the Bible, Jesus had a mortal body, not a glorified body, when wondering the wilderness.

I don't understand what this glorified body is. Why does adding a religious word before 'body' somehow make the impossible possible?

I would assume a glorified body could survive 40 days in a wilderness?
Where can I go to learn more about glorified bodies and what they can/can't do?

I ask because it seems you are using glorified in a way to make something appear more special than it really was.

Funny that huh?
glo·ri·fied
ˈɡlôrəˌfīd/
adjective
1.
(especially of something or someone ordinary or unexceptional) represented in such a way as to appear more elevated or special.

According to the definition, a glorified body would just be a regular body that people glorify to make it appear special.

Let's examine this scripture in Corinthians 15:


35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?� 36 Fool! What you sow will not come to life unless it dies. 37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare seed – perhaps of wheat or something else. 38 But God gives it a body just as he planned, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 39 All flesh is not the same: People have one flesh, animals have another, birds and fish another. 40 And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. The glory of the heavenly body is one sort and the earthly another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon and another glory of the stars, for star differs from star in glory. 42 It is the same with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living person�; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust, and like the one from heaven, so too those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, let us also bear the image of the man of heaven. 50 Now this is what I am saying, brothers and sisters: Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I will tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed – 52 in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 Now when this perishable puts on the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will happen, “Death has been swallowed up in victory.� 55 “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?� 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.



"Death results in the separation of the body and the soul. Our bodies go to the grave and our spirits go to the Lord. The separation continues until the resurrection: “Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment� (John 5:28–29)."

Our natural bodies are mortal and the spiritual body is not. A spiritual, glorified body does not mean we do not have our bodies but it is not subject to mortality. According to the gospels, Jesus resurrected with His earthly body but it was His spirit that had reunited with the body. I believe Jesus' spirit was in hell because He was so full of sin. Only by conquering death and sin, could His spirit reunite with His body. This resulted in His glorified body. So even though His resurrected body had earthly qualities like Jesus being able to eat, it also had other worldly ones as well. He could pass through walls, etc.

It would sure be nice if you could offer something other than your religious holy book to suggest that your religious holy book is true.

I'm now as convinced of what you say as you would be if a Muslim quoted from the Qu'ran to you.

Have you ever witnessed a glorified body outside of stories in your religious promotional material? Any reason we should consider those words in your holy book as describing reality and not Paul just creating a religion?

[Zzyzx]

.
Here are some poignant thoughts about prayer from an apparent Christian

Why Christians Need to Stop Praying
July 6, 2016 / John Pavlovitz

I’m so tired of Christian prayers.

I imagine God is too.

I’m quite certain the people we so readily say that we’re praying for are tired of them:

Praying for hungry people instead of skipping our second latte of the day and buying them lunch.

Praying for a friend battling depression instead of sitting with them for a few minutes and really listening.

Praying for families of murdered black men instead of speaking directly into the institutionalized racism in law enforcement and the darkness of our own hearts.

Praying for victims of sexual assault instead of dealing with the misogyny, sexism, and pornography that devalue young women in the eyes of young men.

Praying for the LGBTQ community when they are terrorized instead of demanding that churches fully affirm their humanity and celebrate their inclusion.

Praying for innocent American Muslims who endure violence instead of calling out ignorant bigotry from our preachers and politicians that incubate hatred.

Praying for victims of another mass shooting instead of fully engaging in the battle for legislation that would make guns more difficult to purchase.

Stop praying already, Christian.

Stop tossing off hollow words to the ether when you’re standing on the bloody ground of a hurting world.

Stop being on the front lines of suffering and calling for some invisible backup you hope will come.

Stop acting as if so much of the terrible stuff passing in front of you is beyond you.

Stop feeling so stinkin’ good about yourself for feeling bad.

Your compassion alone is useless. You need to get your hands dirty.

Praying for God to move and sitting still isn’t redemptive. It’s empty religion.

This is not about passing the buck to God.

This is about incarnating the love of God.

God has given you life and breath and gifts and resources and abundance, and if you stop hoarding them so much you may soon find that the space around you becomes less and less horrible.

If you dare to step outside of laziness and selfishness and apathy, you may find that you’re no longer content to just pray. You may feel burdened to become the answer to prayer.

And this is the measurement of your faith: the tangible fruit of patience, kindnesses, and goodness which your life yields—not the furrow of your brow or the clasping of your hands when these things are absent.

God has given you here and now as the sacred space in which you get to reflect the character of Christ and alter the freakin’ thing in glorious, beautiful ways. This is God’s reply to your petitions.

If you stop asking God to do what God has already wired, commanded, and equipped you to do, your prayers will change. They won’t as often be delivered into the Heavens but into the mirror.

Christian, the boldest prayer you can utter in these days, is the prayer that you begin to live more fully into the calling your faith has placed upon your life; the one that dares you to love and serve and give and sacrifice and mourn and give a far greater damn than you pretend that you do most of the time.

So many hungry, hurting, invisible, disregarded, brutalized people are not so, because God has yet to move but because the people of God are so reluctant to.

Pray less. Move more.

That we who claim Christ would begin to emulate him: This is the only prayer I’m praying today.
http://johnpavlovitz.com/2016/07/06/why ... p-praying/

[marco]

Lol. Your claim was that, in the Bible, there were no witnesses to Jesus being distressed and kneeling on the ground. I posted scriptures showing the contrary. I'm just saying what the Bible says. I'm not necessarily saying it is proof that that is what happened.

And there were no witnesses. Only in Mark do we hear of a naked man running away and he appears after Judas and the crowd arrive. He has nothing to do with the previous unwitnessed scene.

It looks as though the writers make up what they want and supply words where they choose. It leads one to suppose the whole is fictional. Do ears just get stuck back on again?

[Claire Evans]

.

The forty days Jesus is said to have wondered the wilderness not eating corresponds with Moses fasting for 40 days according to the OT.

The Bible contains several instances of supposedly recording what people said and did when they were alone.

That is a literary style known as "omniscient narrator" -- the writer pretends to know what others think, say or do when alone with no observers. It is a writing style typically used by writers of fiction -- NOT by those writing literal accounts of events and conversations.


Regarding 40 days of fasting: Under some circumstances it is possible for people to live that long without eating -- particularly if they are overweight to begin. They cannot, however, go more than a very few days without liquids.

That's why I said I don't believe the 40 days in the wilderness story actually happened.

Yes, some people can live 40 days without eating but they aren't walking around wondering places like Jesus did according to that scripture.

How about the resurrection story?
I must assume you also know that a body that has decomposed for 3 days cannot reanimate?

Naturally, but Jesus resurrected in a gloried body not subject to death anymore according to the gospels.

40 days without food is hard for you to find credible, I get that. However, if you as a person have issues with the 40 days, I must assume the resurrection story is just that as well?
If not, please explain why one is believable and the other is not.

In the Bible, Jesus had a mortal body, not a glorified body, when wondering the wilderness.

I don't understand what this glorified body is. Why does adding a religious word before 'body' somehow make the impossible possible?

I would assume a glorified body could survive 40 days in a wilderness?
Where can I go to learn more about glorified bodies and what they can/can't do?

I ask because it seems you are using glorified in a way to make something appear more special than it really was.

Funny that huh?
glo·ri·fied
ˈɡlôrəˌfīd/
adjective
1.
(especially of something or someone ordinary or unexceptional) represented in such a way as to appear more elevated or special.

According to the definition, a glorified body would just be a regular body that people glorify to make it appear special.

Let's examine this scripture in Corinthians 15:


35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?� 36 Fool! What you sow will not come to life unless it dies. 37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare seed – perhaps of wheat or something else. 38 But God gives it a body just as he planned, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 39 All flesh is not the same: People have one flesh, animals have another, birds and fish another. 40 And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. The glory of the heavenly body is one sort and the earthly another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon and another glory of the stars, for star differs from star in glory. 42 It is the same with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living person�; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust, and like the one from heaven, so too those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, let us also bear the image of the man of heaven. 50 Now this is what I am saying, brothers and sisters: Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I will tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed – 52 in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 Now when this perishable puts on the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will happen, “Death has been swallowed up in victory.� 55 “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?� 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.



"Death results in the separation of the body and the soul. Our bodies go to the grave and our spirits go to the Lord. The separation continues until the resurrection: “Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment� (John 5:28–29)."

Our natural bodies are mortal and the spiritual body is not. A spiritual, glorified body does not mean we do not have our bodies but it is not subject to mortality. According to the gospels, Jesus resurrected with His earthly body but it was His spirit that had reunited with the body. I believe Jesus' spirit was in hell because He was so full of sin. Only by conquering death and sin, could His spirit reunite with His body. This resulted in His glorified body. So even though His resurrected body had earthly qualities like Jesus being able to eat, it also had other worldly ones as well. He could pass through walls, etc.

It would sure be nice if you could offer something other than your religious holy book to suggest that your religious holy book is true.

I'm now as convinced of what you say as you would be if a Muslim quoted from the Qu'ran to you.

Have you ever witnessed a glorified body outside of stories in your religious promotional material? Any reason we should consider those words in your holy book as describing reality and not Paul just creating a religion?

I didn't mean it to be evidence. You just wanted to know what a glorified body meant in Christianity.

This is my view. If the Holy Spirit didn't exist, then the text in the Bible would mean absolutely nothing. You can communicate with spirits.