Proof of the Christian God

[RonE]

In a current topic there was the following post:

Merely saying something is true does not make it true….
We as humans like to have proof.
Gullible people accept things, because it suits them…

And yet theists continue to claim that a creator being exists and that it made everything, despite repeatedly failing to provide any evidence to substantiate the claim....

I’ve seen other posts in the past on this site where theist claim to have scientific evidence of God. I never seen this actually done, usually their evidence is never presented, if something is presented it is invariably misquoted, or doesn’t say what the presenter claims it does.
So, to help us not be “gullible people�. This topic will be dedicated to theists to provide that which has been claimed but never provided, to my knowledge, real scientific evidence of the Christian god.
First, some definitions and parameters for debate:
1. Scientific evidence is evidence which serves to either support, or counter, a scientific theory or hypothesis. Such evidence is expected to be empirical evidence and interpreted in accordance with scientific methods. Standards for scientific evidence vary according to the field of inquiry, but the strength of scientific evidence is generally based on the results of statistical analysis and the strength of scientific controls applied. Wikipedia
2. The scientific hypothesis you will be trying to support with your evidence goes like this: “there is a god as defined in the Christian bible who is omnificent, omnipotent, omniscient, etc. and creator of the universe�.
3. This is not a debate about evolution, disproving evolution is not a proof that your god exists. Nor is it about attempting to debunk other scientific hypothesis or theories, unless doing so is direct proof that your god exists, disproving the theory of gravity is not evidence of your god.
4. Please follow the forum rules. “the Bible or other religious writings are not to be considered evidence for scientific claims.�

The rules for this debate are simple:
1) present your scientific evidence of your god
2) see #1

If you don’t have the evidence, please don’t waste everyone’s time.
If you don't like the OP create one for your own topic.

[RonE]

[Replying to post 7 by JLB32168]

Good, by the way you might see if there is something you can do to backup your claims that your god exists in the supernatural world, some evidence that such a thing exists for your god to exist in. Get it? Extraordinary claims require... ah you know the rest.

Supernatural claims cannot be verified by natural methods. If they could then they wouldn’t be called “supernatural.�

I can’t prove God exists. Is the fact that you don’t have proof; therefore, you don’t believe He does exist, supposed to be of some import to me?

Well I'd hope that it would be, you are placing your 'faith' and possibly a good bit of your time, effort, and treasure into something for which you have no evidence. IMHO it is a double whammy, no proof of your claimed deity and no proof of anything supernatural.

Do you believe in ghosts? How about vampires? Or zombies? All supernatural entities. I think this is a slippery slope, since there is no evidence of any of these, or your god, if you believe in one you must believe in all.

[logical thinking]

Good, by the way you might see if there is something you can do to backup your claims that your god exists in the supernatural world, some evidence that such a thing exists for your god to exist in. Get it? Extraordinary claims require... ah you know the rest.

Supernatural claims cannot be verified by natural methods. If they could then they wouldn’t be called “supernatural.�

So, if supernatural claims cannot be verified by natural methods, how do you verify them?

And if you can't verify them, how can you distinguish them from other unverified claims that you don't believe in, like for example the claim that the Archangel Gabriel talked to Mohammed and told him specifically that Jesus is NOT the Son of God?

I can’t prove God exists. Is the fact that you don’t have proof; therefore, you don’t believe He does exist, supposed to be of some import to me?

Yes

[RonE]

[Replying to post 12 by logical thinking]

Good, by the way you might see if there is something you can do to backup your claims that your god exists in the supernatural world, some evidence that such a thing exists for your god to exist in. Get it? Extraordinary claims require... ah you know the rest.

Supernatural claims cannot be verified by natural methods. If they could then they wouldn’t be called “supernatural.�

So, if supernatural claims cannot be verified by natural methods, how do you verify them?

And if you can't verify them, how can you distinguish them from other unverified claims that you don't believe in, like for example the claim that the Archangel Gabriel talked to Mohammed and told him specifically that Jesus is NOT the Son of God?

I can’t prove God exists. Is the fact that you don’t have proof; therefore, you don’t believe He does exist, supposed to be of some import to me?

Yes

Thanks LogicalThinking. The point is they cannot prove their claims. So if they have no proof/evidence for the very underlying claim of christianity why are we still debating? IMO this site serves as a platform to reach theists who come here. To open their eyes to this very point. Really, why else would we be here? Every time we engage in a debate without pointing out this 'truth' about religion we do our opponents a great service.

[marco]

And if you can't verify them, how can you distinguish them from other unverified claims that you don't believe in, like for example the claim that the Archangel Gabriel talked to Mohammed and told him specifically that Jesus is NOT the Son of God?

Yes, this is a good point. I don't care if people believe in what seem to be fictions. I do care when they want to kill me for not subscribing to their club. Therefore it is important to get to grips with supernatural claims. What can be clearly shown is that Islam and Christianity cannot both be right. Perhaps tossing a coin in the air and Letting Allah or Yahweh decide would eliminate some of the warfare.

It is surely time for everyone to move into the 21st century and take their donkeys and camels with them.

[RonE]

[Replying to post 14 by marco]

Thank you Marco. That is exactly the point.

This topic has been largely ignored by the theists for what I believe is a perfectly valid reason. They cannot handle a demand for evidence of their extraordinary supernatural claims. I am working on thestudent in the current topic "what does intelligent design prove?".

Yes, I have singled-out thestudent for this debating experiment because of his creationist debating style, the results should be enlightening. So far I'd say it's been predictable.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 7 by JLB32168]

And yet, you know it. So there is some element of the natural that allows you to know the supernatural. What is it? What is the proof that allows you to know better than, for example; me?

Respectfully submitted,

[JLB32168]

Well I'd hope that it would be, you are placing your 'faith' and possibly a good bit of your time, effort, and treasure into something for which you have no evidence.

I have evidence. Did you perhaps mean the conclusive kind? That’s not the only kind of evidence, you know.

IMHO it is a double whammy, no proof of your claimed deity and no proof of anything supernatural.

Once again you seem to confuse “conclusive proof� with the idea of proofs – a sequence of steps used to validate a solution/conclusion. Theists each have an individual burden of proof for “God exists� that has been met and that is why they are theists.

I have seen icons weep chrism (a mixture of olive oil mixed w/ground frankensense tears) and have known men who went to Mt. Athos who came into contact with monks that possessed the ability to read people’s minds and tell them the answers to spiritual questions before the questions had been asked. Of course, the entire idea that the universe erupted from nothing (since there can’t be an infinite regression of causes) is complimented by calling it absurd, IMO. I have had more than enough evidence and proofs other than the things I mentioned in this post to form my conclusion that the supernatural exists and specifically that God is its foundation.

If someone else doesn’t then I have concluded that they are not being objective and I simply can’t be bothered with trying to convince people of something when they are immune to evidence.

[RonE]

[Replying to post 17 by JLB32168]

Well I'd hope that it would be, you are placing your 'faith' and possibly a good bit of your time, effort, and treasure into something for which you have no evidence.

I have evidence. Did you perhaps mean the conclusive kind? That’s not the only kind of evidence, you know.

IMHO it is a double whammy, no proof of your claimed deity and no proof of anything supernatural.

Once again you seem to confuse “conclusive proof� with the idea of proofs – a sequence of steps used to validate a solution/conclusion. Theists each have an individual burden of proof for “God exists� that has been met and that is why they are theists.

I have seen icons weep chrism (a mixture of olive oil mixed w/ground frankensense tears) and have known men who went to Mt. Athos who came into contact with monks that possessed the ability to read people’s minds and tell them the answers to spiritual questions before the questions had been asked. Of course, the entire idea that the universe erupted from nothing (since there can’t be an infinite regression of causes) is complimented by calling it absurd, IMO. I have had more than enough evidence and proofs other than the things I mentioned in this post to form my conclusion that the supernatural exists and specifically that God is its foundation.

If someone else doesn’t then I have concluded that they are not being objective and I simply can’t be bothered with trying to convince people of something when they are immune to evidence.

If your evidence can meet the conditions laid out the the OP, please submit it. Or just submit it anyway and let's see. Personal testimony of course carries very little weight.

[Inigo Montoya]

Even granting mind-reading monks and weeping statues, where does the existence of one particular god get demonstrated?

I can't explain said phenomena, therefore the supernatural exists; since the supernatural exists, it's reasonable my favorite god exists.

Something like that?

[JLB32168]

Personal testimony of course carries very little weight.

That presupposes I crave your validation of my beliefs. I don’t. [smile]