What If...?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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theStudent
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What If...?

Post #1

Post by theStudent »

Currently, I am doing what was suggested by some on these forums.
I am researching information both for, and against evolution, and trust me - I am doing so objectively.
While I am still researching, I want to put this out, to hear the different views on it.

During my research I discovered that lately, just over the last decade or so, a lot of informations has been surfacing about fake fossils.
In fact it has now become common place for fossils sold at museums to be checked for genuineness.
I find this interesting.

Why now, is this happening?
Could it be that evidence as it always does, is now surfacing?

For example
Remember the dinosaur hoax - the one that was said to be put together using different bones?
It has recently been found out that it wasn't a hoax after all.
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/02/ ... ecies.html

That is quite interesting.

The fossils aren't the only things that were/are claimed to be fake.
There are the drawings, and pictures as well.
Right now, I am going through a very long document considered a case against some of Darwins picture illustrations.
But have you ever come across this one?

Pictures from the past powerfully shape current views of the world. In books, television programs, and websites, new images appear alongside others that have survived from decades ago. Among the most famous are drawings of embryos by the Darwinist Ernst Haeckel in which humans and other vertebrates begin identical, then diverge toward their adult forms. But these icons of evolution are notorious, too: soon after their publication in 1868, a colleague alleged fraud, and Haeckels many enemies have repeated the charge ever since. His embryos nevertheless became a textbook staple until, in 1997, a biologist accused him again, and creationist advocates of intelligent design forced his figures out. How could the most controversial pictures in the history of science have become some of the most widely seen?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Haeckel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haec ... eks4-6.jpg
English: The pictures illustrate Ernst Haeckel's biogenetic law. In the beginning embryos of different species look remarkable similar, later different characteristics develop. The images initiated controversies and charges of fraud.

All of this lends to a possibility.
Consdering the fact that fossils can be faked, we must accept the fact that Darwin, and other scientists could have lied.

My question here, isn't whether he did lie or not, but rather, Does this not place evolutionists in the same position as the Christians they claim are believing in fables?

Consider:
Christians accept the Bible, as the word of God.
Here are just a few facts about the Bible.
With estimated total sales of over 5 billion copies, the Bible is widely considered to be the best-selling book of all time.
It has estimated annual sales of 100 million copies.
It has been a major influence on literature and history, especially in the West where the Gutenberg Bible was the first mass-printed book.
It was the first book ever printed using movable type.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible

Archaeological findings of the Dead Sea Scrolls, also called the Qumran Caves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

The evidence is there however, that the book we hold in our hand today (the Bible), contains information written centuries ago.

Atheist call the book fables - the reason I have yet to find out.
Maybe one of the reasons is that they have not seen God, or seen him write any book - whatever.
So they claim that Christians' belief in them and what they present is blind faith, and belief in stories.

However, is this not the case with those who accept the theory of evolution, where all they have to go by, is what scientists claim to be evidence?

By the way...
No one, to this day have seen them recreate the theories.
Any data they give you on species, is usually what already existed (at least what I have come across so far).
As regards other claims, all we have are pictures, and claimed fossils, which could have been edited.

So evolutionists are really believing what men claim - without any substantial proof of their claim.
How is this different to believing a book?

And what if Darwin, and others lied?


I'm just interested in you different opinions and thoughts, on the above.
Here is a nice short video of someone's opinion. Reasonable too.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #511

Post by Clownboat »

arian wrote:
theStudent wrote: Let me exercise my face muscles a bit.

Plantinga, Alvin (11 April 2010). "Evolution, Shibboleths, and Philosophers " Letters to the Editor". The Chronicle of Higher Education. ...I do indeed think that evolution functions as a contemporary shibboleth by which to distinguish the ignorant fundamentalist goats from the informed and scientifically literate sheep.

According to Richard Dawkins, 'It is absolutely safe to say that, if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid, or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that).'
Daniel Dennett goes Dawkins one (or two) further: 'Anyone today who doubts that the variety of life on this planet was produced by a process of evolution is simply ignorant"inexcusably ignorant.' You wake up in the middle of the night; you think, can that whole Darwinian story really be true? Wham! You are inexcusably ignorant.

I do think that evolution has become a modern idol of the tribe. But of course it doesn't even begin to follow that I think the scientific theory of evolution is false. And I don't.


Image


Does the theory of evolution represent true science at its best?
Note this answer from Christoph Schnborn, Catholic archbishop of Vienna, quoted in The New York Times:
Any system of thought that denies or seeks to explain away the overwhelming evidence for design in biology is ideology, not science.
Is he wrong?
Once again, here it is, in plain view:
Naturalism
In philosophy, naturalism is the "idea or belief that only natural (as opposed to supernatural or spiritual) laws and forces operate in the world."
Adherents of naturalism (i.e., naturalists) assert that natural laws are the rules that govern the structure and behavior of the natural universe, that the changing universe at every stage is a product of these laws.
Philosophy and science

Naturalism (philosophy) is any of several philosophical stances wherein all phenomena or hypotheses commonly labeled as supernatural are either false or not inherently different from natural phenomena or hypotheses.
Spiritual naturalism, an approach to spirituality that is devoid of supernaturalism.
Religious naturalism, religious institutions, rituals, doctrines and communities which do not include supernatural beliefs.
The theory of evolution was started by the ideology (I call it scientific religion) called Naturalism, of which Charles Darwin, and his associates were the leaders.
Darwinism is a theory of biological evolution developed by the English naturalist Charles Darwin (1809-1882) and others...

Iris Fry, The Emergence of Life on Earth, 2000, p. 184
...origin of life research consists in looking for a naturalistic alternative to the idea of the creation of life by a designer.
Practical atheism
In practical or pragmatic atheism, also known as apatheism, individuals live as if there are no gods and explain natural phenomena without reference to any deities. The existence of gods is not rejected, but may be designated unnecessary or useless; gods neither provide purpose to life, nor influence everyday life, according to this view. A form of practical atheism with implications for the scientific community is methodological naturalism " the "tacit adoption or assumption of philosophical naturalism within scientific method with or without fully accepting or believing it.
Is it possible to push an agenda in science, and get away with it?
In other words, can scientists cheat, in order to establish an ideology?
[url=file:///C:/Users/John/Downloads/debating/evolutionTheories/Scientific%20method%20-%20RationalWiki.mht]Cheating the scientific method[/url]
Pseudoscientists have discovered an obvious way to 'cheat' the scientific method. It goes like this:
Pick a personal belief that you already 'know' is true, but for which you want 'proof'.
Perform some related observations or experiments, and note the results.
Generate a hypothesis that shoehorns said results into your personal belief.
Falsely claim that your personal belief predicts the particular results, and that the observations/experiment confirmed your suspicions.
This is a blatant perversion of the scientific method, but to someone not versed in science, fallacies, or psychology, it might seem similar enough to be accepted as legitimate.
This manner of cheating has been used by proponents of intelligent design. Note that this isn't limited to pseudoscientists such as those trying to grant legitimacy to intelligent design, but is a mistake frequently made even by "proper" scientists, if they focus too much on finding evidence that supports their hypothesis (their "belief"), instead of focusing on attempting to find evidence that would refute it, or on attempting to find evidence that would refute competing hypotheses.
Which specific aspect of Naturalism did Darwin subscribe to?
Not sure. However,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism_(philosophy)
In the 20th century, Willard Van Orman Quine, George Santayana, and other philosophers argued that the success of naturalism in science meant that scientific methods should also be used in philosophy. Science and philosophy are said to form a continuum, according to this view.
Can this work?

[url=file:///C:/Users/John/Downloads/debating/other/What%20is%20the%20Relation%20between%20Science%20and%20Religion%20%20%20Reasonable%20Faith.mht]What is the Relation between Science and Religion[/url] - William Lane Craig
As Thaxton and Pearcey point out in their recent book The Soul of Science, for over 300 years between the rise of modern science in the 1500s and the late 1800s the relationship between science and religion can best be described as an alliance. Up until the late 19th century, scientists were typically Christian believers who saw no conflict between their science and their faith"people like Kepler, Boyle, Maxwell, Faraday, Kelvin, and others. The idea of a warfare between science and religion is a relatively recent invention of the late 19th century, carefully nurtured by secular thinkers who had as their aim the undermining of the cultural dominance of Christianity in the West and its replacement by naturalism " the view that nothing outside nature is real and the only way to discover truth is through science. They were remarkably successful in pushing through their agenda. But philosophers of science during the second half of the 20th century have come to realize that the idea of a warfare between science and theology is a gross oversimplification.

Sometimes you hear slogans like Science deals with facts and religion deals with faith. But this is a gross caricature of both science and religion. As science probes the universe, she encounters problems and questions which are philosophical in character and therefore cannot be resolved scientifically, but which can be illuminated by a theological perspective. By the same token, it is simply false that religion makes no factual claims about the world.
I would say, it could work as it did in the past, but there is an obvious reason why it won't.

A new book of mythology...
Chapter 1 - The beginning of our universe
Once upon a time, billions of years ago - 13.8 billion years ago, to be exact...

Chapter 2 - The beginning of life on earth
Traveling through space on a massive chunk of debris from the exploded star, imbedded deep in its recesses, lay the exact formula that would give life to the mother of all life on the planet below - earth.
Image
I agree about 90% of what you said here, and if you keep this kind of evidence against the One World Order Sci-Fi Religion, you my friend will get banned from here. Do you think they will let 300 years of hard work be destroyed by a, .. a, .. a Student, .. Huh?

I would like to add to this statement:

Up until the late 19th century, scientists were typically Christian believers who saw no conflict between their science and their faith"people like Kepler, Boyle, Maxwell, Faraday, Kelvin, and others. The idea of a warfare between science and religion is a relatively recent invention of the late 19th century, carefully nurtured by secular thinkers who had as their aim the undermining of the cultural dominance of Christianity in the West and its replacement by naturalism " the view that nothing outside nature is real and the only way to discover truth is through science.

This is true with everything that we observe today, and of course I would NOT agree on the view that nothing outside nature is real, .. but I do AGREE that the only way to discover truth is through science.

From scientific observation of the world around me I have discovered "nothing", and "Infinity", which these Pseudo Sci-Fientists have been hiding all these years.

"Infinite" is conscious, as in "I Am".

and

"nothing" is truly as the word describes itself, a no-"thing", that exists between all "things".

Once the sheep have been made to believe that; "nothing is no longer nothing", and that "Infinite is just a concept", heck, after that anything goes, any sci-fi claim can be justified by turning things "Upside Down".
Arian, please stop pretending that you understand evolution.
It is not some Sci-fi religion, it is a method.

TheStudent, arian agreed with 90% of your post! :oops:
He even claims that this web site, owned and operated by a Christian man has some hidden agenda that will get you banned if you do not support the ToE. :shock:

Arian and theStudent, please pretend that evolution has been falsified. Now supply us with the mechanism that is in place that best describes the life we now observe on earth and also in the fossil record.

It would be great if you guys also finally touched on Neanderthal man and how we have their DNA. Also, kindly explain ERVs and vestigial structures in humans.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

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Post #512

Post by Clownboat »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 493 by ttruscott]

You nailed it. Especially in the concluding sentence.
That story was a fitting one too.


Conclusion
It has been established that indeed Charles Darwin and his associates did lie, and it didn't end with him.
The truth did surface eventually.

[youtube][/youtube]
[youtube][/youtube]

We have seen that to this day, the theory of evolution is considered by many, to be scientific - yet the question lingers... Where is the evidence?

[youtube][/youtube]

Well, as was the case with the earlier hoaxes, time will tell.
I like the term this physicist used, and his fitting illustration.

Physicist Richard Feynman

Cargo cult science
In the South Seas there is a cargo cult of people. During the war they saw airplanes land with lots of good materials, and they want the same thing to happen now. So they've arranged to imitate things like runways, to put fires along the sides of the runways, to make a wooden hut for a man to sit in, with two wooden pieces on his head like headphones and bars of bamboo sticking out like antennas"he's the controller"and they wait for the airplanes to land. They're doing everything right. The form is perfect. It looks exactly the way it looked before. But it doesn't work. No airplanes land. So I call these things cargo cult science, because they follow all the apparent precepts and forms of scientific investigation, but they're missing something essential, because the planes don't land.

We've learned from experience that the truth will come out. Other experimenters will repeat your experiment and find out whether you were wrong or right. Nature's phenomena will agree or they'll disagree with your theory. And, although you may gain some temporary fame and excitement, you will not gain a good reputation as a scientist if you haven't tried to be very careful in this kind of work. And it's this type of integrity, this kind of care not to fool yourself, that is missing to a large extent in much of the research in cargo cult science.
Why would individuals lie..., create an illusion of reality, and present it to the public, if what they were offering were really genuine.
I think these words sums up the answer, quite nicely, and my conclusion.
They focus on obtaining the material wealth (the "cargo") of the advanced culture through magical means, by building landing strips, mock aircraft, mock radios, and the like.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_science
Please stop whining and crying about evolution. Pretty please, with sugar on top.
Let's pretend they found a fossil out of place and it is no longer a valid theory. Doing so will give us readers a little break from the complaining.

Now, please supply us with a mechanism to replace it that better describes the life we see on this planet now and in the fossil record. Again, for this exercise, the Theory of Evolution has been falsified. Do you even have a mechanism to propose? Does it address Neanderthal DNA and ERVs? How about vestigial structures?

Please put this mechanism in using your own words so I don't have to listen through an hour of random Youtube videos. Thanks and be well.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Post #513

Post by Neatras »

[Replying to post 509 by Clownboat]

I already tried that, Clownboat. I made an entire [strike]threat[/strike] thread explicitly so theists could posit the merits of Creationism, and how it explains anything about reality.

You know how they responded? By trying to disprove evolution. I gave them everything they needed, including an admission of evolution being wrong (within the context of the thread, and purely for hypothetical reasons), and they don't even bother trying to reinforce Creationism. They just continued to attack evolution. Shows how hollow and unscientific Creationism is. Its entire modus operandi is dismissing real science and evidence, and it has nothing to support it when you peer underneath the shabby and hastily thrown together arguments.
Last edited by Neatras on Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #514

Post by Willum »

I can't even understand what they are trying to disprove: Evolution has been considered a FACT since 1986. How can one continue to claim otherwise?

http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/lenski.html
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.

You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.

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Post #515

Post by RonE »

[Replying to post 510 by Neatras]

Back in the 90s there was a book about the differences between men & women, Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. The differences between believers and non-believers is even bigger.

Creationist will never admit defeat, no matter how ridiculously one sided the debate becomes, or how many times they are shown to be wrong. The only thing that can be gained in debate with them is to show everyone who visits this site how ridiculous their arguments are. That is what my posts seek, cause otherwise it is futile.

Post on!
*"On the other hand, we have people who are believers who are so completely sold on the literal interpretation of the first book of the Bible that they are rejecting very compelling scientific data about the age of the earth and the relatedness of living beings." Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D.
*The Atheist has the comfort of no fears for an afterlife and lacks any compulsion to blow himself up.
* Science flies to you the moon.... religion flies you into buildings.
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Re: What If...?

Post #516

Post by RonE »

[Replying to post 19 by theStudent]

thestudent said:
About the Bible
Writings found to be over 100 centuries old, confirm that the Bible which has been copied, and recopied, as well as translated into hundreds of languages, for over a thousand years, has not changed. Amazing!
That translates to me, as divine intervention.
So how does that sync with this?
http://www.nola.com/religion/index.ssf/ ... olars.html

These guys are working on a 20 year project to codify "the thousands of changes, verse by verse, word by word " even letter by letter " that crept into the early New Testament during hundreds of years of laborious hand-copying."

That doesn't sound so like much divine intervention got in the way of those thousands of changes. Not sure where your information came from but I think your post is debunked.
*"On the other hand, we have people who are believers who are so completely sold on the literal interpretation of the first book of the Bible that they are rejecting very compelling scientific data about the age of the earth and the relatedness of living beings." Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D.
*The Atheist has the comfort of no fears for an afterlife and lacks any compulsion to blow himself up.
* Science flies to you the moon.... religion flies you into buildings.
* Faith isn’t a virtue; it is the glorification of voluntary ignorance.

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Re: What If...?

Post #517

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 513 by RonE]

Writings that are a 100 centuries old? Uh...student...that's TEN THOUSAND YEARS ago! WELL before writing was invented. At least 7,000 years before the first book of the Bible was written
I went back to Post 19, and does student gives us a link or an example of ten thousand year old writings?
Nope.
RonE, no-one knows where student got his information from because he quite clearly made up that bit about 100 century old writings. He gave no examples.
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Re: What If...?

Post #518

Post by RonE »

[Replying to post 514 by rikuoamero]

Always a good idea to do the math. O:)
*"On the other hand, we have people who are believers who are so completely sold on the literal interpretation of the first book of the Bible that they are rejecting very compelling scientific data about the age of the earth and the relatedness of living beings." Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D.
*The Atheist has the comfort of no fears for an afterlife and lacks any compulsion to blow himself up.
* Science flies to you the moon.... religion flies you into buildings.
* Faith isn’t a virtue; it is the glorification of voluntary ignorance.

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Re: What If...?

Post #519

Post by JoeyKnothead »

RonE wrote: [Replying to post 514 by rikuoamero]

Always a good idea to do the math. O:)
Unless it's "creationist math", where 1+1=God.

(clarificational editry)
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Re: What If...?

Post #520

Post by rikuoamero »

RonE wrote: [Replying to post 514 by rikuoamero]

Always a good idea to do the math. O:)
I wonder if he'll say it was a typo. Except that would be even stupider. It would then mean he 'meant' to say "10 century old documents" (so one thousand years, so documents written a thousand years AFTER the Bible...) or "1 century old documents" (same problem as before, only worse).
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Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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