Sex outside of marriage

[puddleglum]

[Yahu]

Can two concenting, committed, non-attached adults having straight on sex without the incorporation of pagain sex worship commit "fornication"?

My understanding is you are also saying a man having sex with a virgin before marriage is not fornicating (as long as he doesn't lust after her or involve any pagan sex worship).

JEHOVAHS WITNESS

NOTE: Jehovah's Witnesses believe sex should be restricted to sex between two legally married individuals of the opposite sex.

It isn't fornication IF they marry. .

It that a "yes" or a "no" to my question?

It doesn't have a 'yes' or 'no' answer but is based on whether the action is done in violation of a specific sexual law.

Is sex with your betrothed fornication? No
Is sex with a non-virgin in a dedicated relationship fornication? No
Is sex with a virgin fornication? No if they marry. Yes if they don't. Taking a girl's virginity without marrying her is in violation of Yah's law.
Is sex with a married or betrothed (to another man) woman fornication? Yes
Is sex with a whore fornication? Yes
Is non-intercourse sexual activity fornication? No, fornication require full vaginal intercourse to qualify.

Now is all that activity that is not fornication still a wise thing to do? It depends on the situation. Any child conceived is still the responsibility of the father. Getting a girl to abort your child because she isn't a full wife is even worse then fornication. It is the shedding of innocent blood.

Yah's law is all about being responsible and caring for the needs of your sexual partner, not just using them to satisfy sexual desire then leaving them with the consequences.

[JehovahsWitness]

It doesn't have a 'yes' or 'no' answer

So when the bible says "flee from fornication" it would be hard to know what that means.

Is sex with your betrothed fornication? No

>> So two people that promise to marry each other and have sex are not fornicating. Even if finally they don't marry (for reasons beyond their control)

Is sex with a non-virgin in a dedicated relationship fornication? No

>> So sex with a prostitute is not fornication (because she's not a virgin)

Is sex with a virgin fornication? No

>> So sex before marriage is not fornication.

>> So taking a girls virginity (if she offers it willingly) is not fornication.

Is sex with a married or betrothed (to another man) woman fornication? Yes

>> So if a single WOMAN has sex with a married man it's not fornication.

>> If a single non-virgin has sex with a married man it's not fornication.

Is sex with a whore fornication? Yes

>> But not if they both promise they'll marry after (and she's not a virgin); or if she's a virgin prostitute doing it for the first time.

Is non-intercourse sexual activity fornication? No

>> So anal sex, oral sex and bestiality is not fornication.

Now is all that activity that is not fornication still a wise thing to do? It depends on the situation.

>> yes, for the morally corrupt so-called Christians that wants the title but also wants to continue being sexually immoral I suppose you are right.

JW

[Yahu]

>> So if a single WOMAN has sex with a married man it's not fornication.
>> If a single non-virgin has sex with a married man it's not fornication.
JW

A man's marital status is irrelevant. Men were allowed multiple wives and concubines. It is the woman's status that matters. A single woman having sex with a married man was taking on an additional wife or concubine.

Was Jacob in fornication when he took Rachel as a 2nd wife? Was Abraham in sin when he took Hagar as a concubine? Was Ruth in fornication when she went to Boaz for a child? We don't know Boaz's marital status. He could have already had a wife.

So NO, it is NOT fornication or adultery. There is NO Law that limits a man to a single sexual partner UNLESS he is one of the high priests. The high priest caste, ie those descent of Arron were limited to a single wife that was a virgin of the people or the widow of another high priest. That is the OT law.

In the NT, a church leader, elder, bishop and deacon was also limited to a single wife but did not have the added requirements on that wife. The general population of the congregation did NOT have that limitation.

The high priesthood was limited to a higher standard then the rest of the priesthood, the rest of the nation of Israel or the gentiles. We fall into the requirements of the gentiles. And unless a man is in an office in church leadership, limitations to a single partner is not valid even in the NT.

Trying to require that everyone meat the highest standard is the error of Phariseeism. There are differing levels of Yah's will. There is the good, exceptable and perfect will. We are not REQUIRED to be in that perfect will. It may give greater blessings but not doing so is not sin.

Setting the standard so high that many turn away from Yah because of the heavy yoke applied to them carries a severe penalty. If you wish to follow the highest standard of Yah's will, that is your option BUT attempting to force others into that standard and telling them it is sin is an example of 'harming the little ones'. So those guilty of that error are better off tying a millstone about their neck and commit suicide by jumping into the sea then to face Yeshua's judgement for their actions.

Worry about the beam in your own eye instead of your neighbors actions. Work out your own salvation instead of your brethren's salvation. Don't be a meddlesome busybody in the matter's of other men's lives. Don't go around slapping the spiritually immature.

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

If you think following my understanding of scripture is unjust, so be it. Yeshua himself COMMANDS you to 'let me be'. Personally I see my position as being a higher standard of righteousness for restraining from attacking people for not living up to religious traditions of man. Even those in sexual error, I let them be in that error after giving them a warning. A Watchman is only required to give a warning but is NOT responsible for those that reject that warning.

[Yahu]

>> So sex with a prostitute is not fornication (because she's not a virgin)
JW

I already address that sex with a prostitute was fornication. Prostitution originated in the pagan practices of the ritual prostitutes and sexual worship of the pagan gods.

The entire idea of prostitution is following the ways of another god.

[Yahu]

[quote="JehovahsWitness"]
>> So anal sex, oral sex and bestiality is not fornication.

Bestiality if covered by another law. This thread is about sex outside of marriage. Of course bestiality is forbidden therefore constitutes fornication.

Oral sex and anal sex is not vaginal intercourse and is not forbidden anywhere. For example when Paul opposes sodomy and homosexuality, he was referencing men that give to other men and men that receive from other men. Those are the meanings of those words. You have to understand the Greek culture. It is considered a 'feminine disease' for a man to receive from other men but is culturally acceptable for a man to give to another man. Paul was saying BOTH practices are against the ways of Yah. It has NOTHING whatsoever to do activities with a wife/concubine.

The ONLY place oral sex is even mentioned in scripture is in Song of Solomon. Of course it is hidden in the poetry in most translations.

So 4:9 Thou hast ravished my heart, my sister, my spouse; thou hast ravished my heart with one of thine eyes, with one chain of thy neck.
10 How fair is thy love, my sister, my spouse! how much better is thy love than wine! and the smell of thine ointments than all spices!
11 Thy lips, O my spouse, drop as the honeycomb: honey and milk are under thy tongue; and the smell of thy garments is like the smell of Lebanon.
12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.
13 Thy plants are an orchard of pomegranates, with pleasant fruits; camphire, with spikenard,
14 Spikenard and saffron; calamus and cinnamon, with all trees of frankincense; myrrh and aloes, with all the chief spices:
15 A fountain of gardens, a well of living waters, and streams from Lebanon.
16 Awake, O north wind; and come, thou south; blow upon my garden, that the spices thereof may flow out. Let my beloved come into his garden, and eat his pleasant fruits.

The Hebrew word Ayin (and letter) has alternate meanings from spring and fountain. Ayin can be eye, spring, fountain or vagina. It is a 'source of waters'. This passage is about the king performing oral sex on a virgin. The 'spring shut up' the 'fountain sealed' is a reference to her virginity. The actual paleo-hebrew drew the letter Ayin as a eye but could also be drawn vertically instead of horizontally when it was a representation of vagina.

Do you even have any idea what the purpose of a 'handmaiden' was in those days?