Belief in existence of God scientific. Denial - unscientific

[theStudent]

The length of the thread, in the link below, is largely due to repeated questions.on the contained information. The following is open for debate.
Belief in the existence of God is scientific. Denial - unscientific.

For those who disagree with the above, please state why, and/or provide evidence for the following:

• God does not exist.
• God exists only in the mind of the believer.
• Miracles do not happen.
• The Bible is a book of myths.

[benchwarmer]

[Replying to post 114 by benchwarmer]

Do you consider killing every animal, bird, and infant alive at the time 'just punishment'? What did they do?

The animals were not being punished, nor were the new borns.
However, God started life. He is the life giver, and has the right to take life.

This sounds like "Do as I say, not as I do".

It also sounds like you are admitting that God is breaking His own rule, but since He is the 'life giver' He is free to be a 'life taker' as well. Convenient.

He determined that the present situation called for removing the 99% "gangrene" on his earth. Hence, he made provision to preserve procreative life - animals to restore those lost. People to continue the human population.
The fact that he preserve those 1% righteous, and give others the opportunity to be saved, shows he is just. Also, his preserving the animal kinds, shows his wisdom. Both acts demonstrate his love, and patience.
Do you disagree? Say why.

Yes I disagree. Love and patience would be preserving all who did not deserve 'just punishment'. Not simply wiping everyone out. Surely an all powerful God can come up with a better solution (and a more believable one at that). To be clear I don't believe the story at all, but I was simply arguing based on what is written in the Bible. You asked for examples where Gods rules are broken by God. I gave them. You are now 'apologizing' to try and explain what's plainly written doesn't mean what it says, it means what you think it means.

That's an interpretation debate. One point is to not make particular images. Another point is to not worship them. Why not simply say "don't worship anything except me" if that is what is really meant? Why complicate things?

Imo, it's complicated do those who want to complicate things.
I do not believe the Israelites would have had a problem understanding the command - which when taken as a whole, meant, "Do not commit idolatry - by making a carved image and bowling down to it."

Your belief is noted. I'm simply pointing to what's written in the book and showing that it's open to interpretation. It's hardly clear.

Why did you call it idolatry?
Because you know idolatry refers, not to making an image, but making an image and bowling to it - a form of worship.

I called it that because that is the 'usual' title of that commandment. I'm happy to concede that I named my example incorrectly and let the scripture passages stand on their own conflicting each other.

No I'm suggesting He is asking one group of people to steal another people's land which I consider 'stealing by proxy'. This is even worse in my opinion. He is telling people not to steal, then turning around and telling them to steal because I'm going to make it easy for you. It's kind of like "Don't step on peoples toes. Here, let me take benchwarmer's shoe off so you can step on those toes".

You seem to be suggesting that since God owns everything, it's ok for His people to take something that doesn't belong to them, but belongs to God. So why bother with "Don't steal" if they are God's people and taking things that belong to God is not stealing? Think

I am not suggesting. I am saying - according to the Bible, the land belonged to Jehovah, who determined to give it to his people.
A landlord determines whom he will rent his property to.
He also decides whom he will evict from his property.

I think you missed my point. Does God not own everything according to your belief? If so, how can God's chosen people ever steal?

As far as evicting, how was that accomplished? Did they receive letters saying their rent was past due and they need to move out? I'm pretty sure some 'justified killing' was involved in the 'eviction' thereby actually breaking two laws at once. The hole just gets deeper...

[arian]

For those who disagree with the above, please state why...

The "God" thesis is untestable and unfalsifiable and hence unscientific.

As Richard Lewontin so eloquently puts it:

"Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated.

Fine, then prove that "gravity" exists, scientifically I mean?

Gravity?
The existence of tides is often taken as a proof of gravity, but this is logically flawed. Because if the moon's "gravity" were responsible for a bulge underneath it, then how can anyone explain a high tide on the opposite side of the earth at the same time? Anyone can observe that there are two — not one — high tides every day. It is far more likely that tides were given us by an Intelligent Creator long ago and they have been with us ever since. In any case, the fact that there are two high tides falsifies gravity.

OR, scientific evidence for dark matter?

A team of researchers has found the first direct proof for the existence of dark matter, the mysterious and almost invisible substance thought to make up almost a quarter of the universe.

Dark matter does not absorb or emit light. So far, astronomers have inferred its presence only indirectly by measuring the effects of its gravity. (which is a hypothesis at best, not alone be able to pull and cause massive collision between two large clusters of galaxies)

But now, by observing a massive collision between two large clusters of galaxies, astronomers have detected what they say could only be the signature of dark matter.

NOT God, because no signature of a Creator could be found in ANYTHING science has observed so far, .. BUT, .. a massive collision between two large clusters of galaxies millions and millions of LIGHT YEARS away, astronomers have detected what they say could only be the signature of dark matter.

Yep, can only be 'dark matter', .. no other explanation, caused by the hypothesis on gravity as they seen those two galaxies colliding right before their scientific space-explorer spaceship, and having taken imaginary samples of both "gravity" AND "Dark matter", we now have "Direct Proof"!!

But unfortunately we have not detected a mind in man, only a brain, and we know without a doubt that the brain creates the mind which evolves, mutates liquid that gotts all this electricity in it that the fingers and impulses from other extremities send info into, and the brain just mutates an electrical response back into the liquid which flow all over and into the fingers telling the fingers: "Go ahead, pick that pencil up". Yep, .. no spirit/mind in man, it's all in gravity pulling galaxies together and creating dark matter. That's haws we exists, mutating mutants, mindless zombies, .. that is vhat we iz boss!

Oh, .. and there is no Infinite either, .. no evidence. Just because we have gazillion galaxies out there does not mean it is IN Infinite, .. sheeeshhh, .. that's so silly; infinite, .. I mean what's next, the existence of "nothing", .. a no-thing?? Ridiculous, only dumb Creationists would come up with such crazy and wild ideas.

Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. The eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck used to say that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything.

Keep those "Divine feet" out of science, those demonic beings who reside in the supernatural realm have no place in science since they didn't create ANYTHING, .. they ONLY destroy.

How about: If you can believe in any "thing", you have to believe in a "Conscious Infinite Creator God" first. If you can "observe, reason anything", you have to believe you have a mind behind it all. Our brain, like our Gluteus Maximus will not wonder about anything, never did, and never will.

To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen."

Regularities of nature ruptured, .. miracles, .. oh lordie noo, .. that could blow a Sci-Fientists brain-liquid and have it wonder around believing its a mindless animal for the rest of its genderless life!

God does not exist.
God exists only in the mind of the believer.

First define God in a manner that can be tested scientifically.

Sure, .. all you have to do is come to know, .. come to understand what Infinite IS by what Infinite means? I mean how many boundless, borderless immeasurable Infinites are there anyways, .. right? You guys understand "gravity", and how it reacts on galaxies millions and millions of light years away that creates dark matter, so what is soo darn hard about understanding such an obvious existence as you mind, .. Infinite??

Space fabric, ... worm holes, I mean the list goes on and on, but when it comes to understanding the difference between finite brain and the Infinite mind, .. all of a sudden it all shuts down.

"Whaa, .. oh you mean the liquid around our brain that evolved over the millions and billions of Carl Sagan years?? That mind?? Yeah, we know, it's about 130 ml. around the brain. You leak that and you become mindless."

Miracles? if anyone who done robotic or CNC programming, watching an illiterate high school dropout play basketball will attest to a miracle, especially knowing that he done no arithmetic, no calculation on how much electricity he should send to the hundreds of muscles before he threw the ball, but that this guys mind sends all the millions of information through his brain through his bodies nervous system in matter of split seconds, and makes that basket swoooshh, every time, nothing but net, .. now that to me (who done CNC/robotic programming) is a miracle!

But noo, .. we Sci-Fientists don't pay no attention to that, we observe massive collision between two large clusters of galaxies, when they should be expanding away from each other everywhere, since there is no center to the universe, yet there they are, banging into each other like in a pinball machine, and we're next with Andromeda expanding straight towards us where we'll have more evidence of Dark Matter!

Love you Bust Nak, God bless.

[Donray]

All these Christians that know nothing about there God.

What is God made of?

What did God create the universe from?

Where does God live?

Hoe does Gods brain function? Same as us?

[arian]

[Replying to post 114 by benchwarmer]

Do you consider killing every animal, bird, and infant alive at the time 'just punishment'? What did they do?

The animals were not being punished, nor were the new borns.
However, God started life. He is the life giver, and has the right to take life.

This sounds like "Do as I say, not as I do".

It also sounds like you are admitting that God is breaking His own rule, but since He is the 'life giver' He is free to be a 'life taker' as well. Convenient.

He determined that the present situation called for removing the 99% "gangrene" on his earth. Hence, he made provision to preserve procreative life - animals to restore those lost. People to continue the human population.
The fact that he preserve those 1% righteous, and give others the opportunity to be saved, shows he is just. Also, his preserving the animal kinds, shows his wisdom. Both acts demonstrate his love, and patience.
Do you disagree? Say why.

Yes I disagree. Love and patience would be preserving all who did not deserve 'just punishment'. Not simply wiping everyone out. Surely an all powerful God can come up with a better solution (and a more believable one at that).

Genesis 18:32 Then he (Abraham) said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak but once more: Suppose ten should be found there?�

And He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of ten.� 33 So the Lord went His way as soon as He had finished speaking with Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place.

Lord, .. how about if you found only one righteous, would you destroy the city for the sake of one righteous?

The Lord: "Yes, but I would yank that one righteous out of the city, along with his half righteous family and whomever were willing to escape with him!"

Same with Noah, God seen the whole world was evil except for Noah, so He saved his family too.

Now the same with the coming destruction of the present world, because of ONE righteous, mainly Jesus, God is willing to save ALL, .. all who is willing to get out of "religion" and their man-made gods, with Him.

To be clear I don't believe the story at all,

Do you believe in the story of Peter Pan? In the story, Peter Pan could fly, and I've seen pictures and even a movie where he did fly.

but I was simply arguing based on what is written in the Bible. You asked for examples where Gods rules are broken by God. I gave them. You are now 'apologizing' to try and explain what's plainly written doesn't mean what it says, it means what you think it means.

God breaks His own rules, .. WHA??

Let's say a Game-programmer makes one of his characters in the game he created able to walk through walls, and then kills off or erases a dozen other characters, would you say the Game-Programmer was unjust?

Here you are bought the game, you log online and find a whole bunch of things altered, changed, so what? All you have to do is read on the back of the disk: Programmers, Game designers and there is a number where you can call them: "Hey, you are unfair, you cheat!"

"How do I cheat? Am I playing the game? I created it for your enjoyment, when I see flaws, or the possibility of cheating developing, I change it to keep the game fair for everyone, what's your problem, huh?"

Now God sent His Son Word, who as Jesus did "play in the game God created", .. and what did Jesus do that was unfair? Now show us that!? What, "turned the other cheek"? Oh I know, He prayed for sinners, forgave the accused who repented and asked for His forgiveness, .. you find something wrong with that?

Remember God is only concerned with our lives, that it is best as it can be, He's not part of this here creation. This is the problem when people don't know God, any created thing can become their god and that's where distrust of God comes in.

[arian]

All these Christians that know nothing about there God.

I know exactly what you mean brother!

What is God made of?

The Christian Religions god?
I believe he is a deified man to godhood, or a fallen angel, either Lucifer as the sun-god, or the demon Legion, this plural deity at least 3 in one who rules from the supernatural realm.

Who is God really? He is Infinite, or Infinite is God. Think of Infinite as conscious, all He needed was a body which He created and called it His Son Word.

What did God create the universe from?

Word, .. He created the universe from His Word, .. that's what I see and understand from the Bible. From a scientific perspective I see it like we create computer programs by the binary code. Only He's is infinitely more complex, instead of just 1's and 0's, His creation is an entire language of complex rules and laws. Man was created by His Word, and we were given a bit of Gods Spirit, makes us like, .. like children of God. Except for our bodies which makes us individuals, we are God, .. Gods Spirit goes back to Him, actually always belongs to Him.

We are gods, but not in the pagan sense, like them imaginary deities deified to godhood like the Pharaohs, but Gods Spirit in a body, .. what makes us individuals to a point we can deny our own Creator.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word Was God, just as Eve was with Adam, and before she was taken out, Eve was Adam. It's all right there in the Bible.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

It's all there, and to me this is just awesome. He, God created a body/brain for Himself, .. everything out of laws and rules, then gave a bit of His spirit into this body He called Word, so now God has an individual likeness of Himself (His spirit in this body called Word). But this created individual Word is not God, for God is Infinite/Spirit, this is why God calls the Word his Son.

Now God can start communicate with a separate individual other than Himself, and have a reason to create other things and beings and places for them to reside in. So God just went wild and started to create all kinds of things, creatures, Angels and the special place called Heaven.

Where does God live?

Sure as there is a hell not in the "supernatural realm"! What blasphemy to make God some deified fallen angel who were cast out of Heaven and now rule from the supernatural realm.

God IS. Infinite does not live in any particular place since all things are IN Infinite. The Bible says that Gods presence is in Heaven. There was a time when God's presence was here in an Ark, then a Temple, .. so God can be anywhere He choses.

With Adam and Eve, He appeared in the form of a man and walked and talked with them in the cool of the day.

How does Gods brain function? Same as us?

The way I see it, as it is revealed in nature itself, observing myself and other humans, and the Bible verifies this, .. that Gods brain/body is His Son Word. Actually God uses His Son Word as his body/brain. Before His first creation Word, He didn't need to communicate through to anyone, because there was no one to communicate with.

Just as we communicate through our brain, which operates this body, God communicates through His Son Word, and after He created all this and all that is in Heaven, God can now use whatever of His creation He choses to communicate through.

Where does God keep records, since He is Infinite-Spirit/Mind? Books, that's where God keeps records, just like us, .. books. For a brain, or temporary short/long term storage, God uses His Sons and other Angels brains, the rest is written in books, or so the Bible tells us.

Remember our brain is a complex created thing, it is Gods Spirit that operates the brain that makes us living beings, living individuals.

So yes, .. belief in the existence of God should be from science, or scientific, and denial should be labeled as poor, or ignorance of science. Once man mixes religion with science, it becomes a real mess, .. well just look what's going on with 666CERN and in their LHC Temple. How divas like this Sasha Fierce, and Lady Gaga are summoned to do their whore-dances for 666CERN, .. my God, to call that religious organization science, is blasphemy in itself.

I guess making themselves believe that they are the Illuminated ones, while the rest of the world are just evolving/mutating mindless animals helps, where every sci-fi fantasy now can be claimed as science. I mean whose going to question them, some self confessed sub-human mindless animals who believe they don't really have free will, but are dumb enough to wear the word "OBEY" on hats and shirts, and tattoos of their labeling (how they evolved, in the grave) as skull & bones, .. right?

R.I.P. Science, religion is where it's at, and 666CERN is where all religions and their gods are invited to Coexist.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 112 by theStudent]

Where do you find in scripture, that Jesus performed magic, or that he poofed a donkey into existence?

So he didn't conjure up the animals, in more or less the same way as he did the food in the loaves and fishes story?

You do realize that you just neatly closed a loophole you could have used to argue in favour of Jesus? By saying that Jesus didn't conjure up these animals, this prevents you from saying that these animals were Jesus's. They would have been someone else's property, property that according to this story Jesus tells his disciples to steal.
At no point in the story does Jesus say "Go and buy the animals" or "Go and ask politely for animals". No, it's " Untie them and bring them to me."
If you disagree that this is a command for theft, I want to ask how much more blatant does a story have to be, before you'll agree that yes it is theft. Does Jesus literally have to say "Go and steal those things from those people over there" before you'll agree that it's theft?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 95 by rikuoamero]

So now, I take this back.

The ratio of the mathematicians who accept the law of contradiction in mathematics may be 100%.

The ratio of the mathematicians who accept the law of contradiction in mathematics may be ?%.
I'll let the mathematicians work it out.
My brain is not that "wired".

Uhh...tS that's YOURSELF you're replying to. I've never said anything about ratios on this site. The quote you have there in post 115 is from your own post 113.

[Bust Nak]

I'm not exactly saying that.
I'm just saying, be fair and honest.
SETI gave a reason why their hypothesis is valid.
Recent scientific discoveries demonstrate that supernatural beings should not be ruled out.

However, I am not griping with that. Whether scientists accept God or not doesn't matter. Their discoveries are saying all we need to know. And those who have eyes to see, will see.

Unknown forces and causes should not be ruled out, supernatural beings doesn't even qualify for consideration in science. If science does indeed one day confirm the existence of God, it would render God a materialistic being. The very premise of science demands naturalism.

I'll use an illustration.
If two persons listening to your words, go away with two completely different meanings, how can they get the real meaning to your words?
Only by you. You have to explain it.

The same with the Bible...

So whereas, his words are written down, he actively aids persons in understanding those words...

You are telling me only God knows what he meant. Well God isn't available for public questioning, one person says "God told me in private, he meant ball Earth;" another say "God told me in private, he meant flat Earth." One person says "God told me in private, he meant young Earth;" another say "God told me in private, he meant old Earth."

Where does that leave those who don't have God's number on speed dial? The text literally says young Earth, the text literally says flat Earth, it's still your words against other Christians' when it comes to what it actually means.

[Bust Nak]

Fine, then prove that "gravity" exists, scientifically I mean?

Easy enough, get three heavy lead balls and mount two on the ends of a bar, then balance the bar by hanging it from a fishing line. Wait until the hanging balls settle down and stop moving. Move the last lead ball close to one of them without touching. Observe the twisting movement of the hanging apparatus.

Gravity?
The existence of tides is often taken as a proof of gravity, but this is logically flawed. Because if the moon's "gravity" were responsible for a bulge underneath it, then how can anyone explain a high tide on the opposite side of the earth at the same time?

With simple science, the tide near side is caused by the moon pulling on water, the tide far side is caused by gravity from the moon being weaker due to the extra distance. That's why one tile is higher than the other one in the same day.

OR, scientific evidence for dark matter?

A team of researchers has found the first direct proof for the existence of dark matter, the mysterious and almost invisible substance thought to make up almost a quarter of the universe.

Dark matter does not absorb or emit light. So far, astronomers have inferred its presence only indirectly by measuring the effects of its gravity.

Well there you go. Rhetorical questions works better if you don't give away the answer.

NOT God, because no signature of a Creator could be found in ANYTHING science has observed so far, .. BUT, .. a massive collision between two large clusters of galaxies millions and millions of LIGHT YEARS away, astronomers have detected what they say could only be the signature of dark matter.

Doesn't look good for God, does it? We can detect something that does not absorb or emit light, millions and light years away but we cannot detect God.

Oh, .. and there is no Infinite either, .. no evidence. Just because we have gazillion galaxies out there does not mean it is IN Infinite.

Actually, we don't know that. The universe could be infinite.

How about: If you can believe in any "thing", you have to believe in a "Conscious Infinite Creator God" first. If you can "observe, reason anything", you have to believe you have a mind behind it all. Our brain, like our Gluteus Maximus will not wonder about anything, never did, and never will.

How about no. Our brain can and does wonder about stuff all the time.

Sure, .. all you have to do is come to know, .. come to understand what Infinite IS by what Infinite means? I mean how many boundless, borderless immeasurable Infinites are there anyways, .. right? You guys understand "gravity", and how it reacts on galaxies millions and millions of light years away that creates dark matter, so what is soo darn hard about understanding such an obvious existence as you mind, .. Infinite??

It's not that hard to understand infinity. So where is your definition of a scientifically testable God?

Miracles? if anyone who done robotic or CNC programming, watching an illiterate high school dropout play basketball will attest to a miracle, especially knowing that he done no arithmetic, no calculation on how much electricity he should send to the hundreds of muscles before he threw the ball, but that this guys mind sends all the millions of information through his brain through his bodies nervous system in matter of split seconds, and makes that basket swoooshh, every time, nothing but net, .. now that to me (who done CNC/robotic programming) is a miracle!

Already addressed that point, and I quote "Well, those kinds of miracles happens every day. Why would you expect us to provide evidence that they do not happen?"

[benchwarmer]

Genesis 18:32 Then he (Abraham) said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak but once more: Suppose ten should be found there?�

And He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of ten.� 33 So the Lord went His way as soon as He had finished speaking with Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place.

Lord, .. how about if you found only one righteous, would you destroy the city for the sake of one righteous?

The Lord: "Yes, but I would yank that one righteous out of the city, along with his half righteous family and whomever were willing to escape with him!"

Same with Noah, God seen the whole world was evil except for Noah, so He saved his family too.

Same with Noah? You appear to be saying the same thing as theStudent: animals, birds, and infants were wiped out in some sort of 'just punishment'. Now in defense, you show a somewhat contradictory view of God where He does try to come up with a more reasonable solution (though still about the same). I don't recall anywhere someone going around gathering up the infants and taking them with them before the 'just punishment' arrived for the city Abraham was in.

All this 'apologizing' boils down to is: God can do whatever He likes.

That's fine, but doesn't argue against the fact He is breaking His own rules.

To be clear I don't believe the story at all,

Do you believe in the story of Peter Pan? In the story, Peter Pan could fly, and I've seen pictures and even a movie where he did fly.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make. I don't believe either story. The point I was making is that I used only the Bible to show God is breaking His own rules. Did you want me to use Peter Pan??

God breaks His own rules, .. WHA??

YA, I know right? It's right there in Bible. Who'd a thunk it?

Let's say a Game-programmer makes one of his characters in the game he created able to walk through walls, and then kills off or erases a dozen other characters, would you say the Game-Programmer was unjust?

Cool, I like games and I'm a programmer (though not a game programmer by profession).

Your example is not very clear. Are you talking about a multiplayer game where the game programmer is playing against you using an 'uber character' or are we talking a single player game where you have to defeat a particular 'uber character' to move on?

In the first case, that is cheating plain and simple. No different that if someone 'hacks' the game so they are invincible. In the second case, you are just describing a 'boss' character that is harder to defeat and part of the game so not cheating.

Here you are bought the game, you log online and find a whole bunch of things altered, changed, so what? All you have to do is read on the back of the disk: Programmers, Game designers and there is a number where you can call them: "Hey, you are unfair, you cheat!"

"How do I cheat? Am I playing the game? I created it for your enjoyment, when I see flaws, or the possibility of cheating developing, I change it to keep the game fair for everyone, what's your problem, huh?"

Now you are talking about something completely different. Now you are talking about updates to the game to ward off players who cheat. Is the game designer one of the players that's playing and cheating? I'm lost.

Now God sent His Son Word, who as Jesus did "play in the game God created", .. and what did Jesus do that was unfair? Now show us that!? What, "turned the other cheek"? Oh I know, He prayed for sinners, forgave the accused who repented and asked for His forgiveness, .. you find something wrong with that?

Now you've gone off on another tangent. Where was I talking about Jesus? I restricted my examples to the OT.

Remember God is only concerned with our lives, that it is best as it can be, He's not part of this here creation. This is the problem when people don't know God, any created thing can become their god and that's where distrust of God comes in.

Opinion and preaching noted. Not part of the discussion I was having with theStudent at all.