Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved

[Zzyzx]

.
Here are the words straight from Jesus (supposedly)

Mark 16;16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned

Notice that the ONLY requirements to be saved are believe and baptized PERIOD.

Believe WHAT?

Baptized by who, how?

There is NO mention of following commandments, praying, avoiding sin, repentance, forgiveness, worship, or anything else (not even love one another " or enemies). Just believe and be baptized.

Where do all the other requirements come from since they are not from Jesus?

Did he change his mind and say different things at other times?

[Divine Insight]

It not only says that they will be saved, but it also promises quite a few other things:

They will be able to drink any deadly thing and it shall not hurt them.

And they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover.

Mark 16:
[15] And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
[16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
[17] And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
[18] They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
[19] So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
[20] And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Who does this apply to? Certainly not modern day Christians. I haven't heard about any Christians who can drink any deadly thing and not be hurt by it. And I also haven't heard of any Christians who can heal people by simply laying their hands on them.

It seems to me that these things should be a "test" of a "True Christian". Have them drink a cup of gasoline or other deadly substance and not be hurt by it.

And also have them go into a hospital and empty the place by just laying their hands on the people there.

And if they can't do these things, then according to words attributed to Jesus they must not be "Baptized Believers". And therefore they can hardly claim to be "true Christians".

This is what I want to know:

How can anyone who cannot do these things claim to be a "believer"?

Similar claims are made in John 14:

[12] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
[13] And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
[14] If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Anyone who can't do greater works than Jesus and cannot do whatever they ask in Jesus' name has no business claiming that they believe in Jesus because according to Jesus, if hey believe on him, they should be able to do these things.

Jesus has set the criteria for what a "True Christian" must be able to do.

[Saved75]

.
Here are the words straight from Jesus (supposedly)

Mark 16;16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned

Notice that the ONLY requirements to be saved are believe and baptized PERIOD.

Believe WHAT?

Baptized by who, how?

There is NO mention of following commandments, praying, avoiding sin, repentance, forgiveness, worship, or anything else (not even love one another " or enemies). Just believe and be baptized.

Where do all the other requirements come from since they are not from Jesus?

Did he change his mind and say different things at other times?

The Greek emphasis for "Saved", In Mk 16: 16, Is on the "Believing", NOT on baptism, As Jesus goes on to prove, When He said,
"He that believeth not shall be damned".

Please note, Jesus didn't say, "He that isn't baptised, shall be damned", So Jesus and the Greek agree that salvation is based on believing, Not on baptism, which is only an outward sign of an ALREADY inward experience.

Remission of sins, [Salvation] comes from believing,
AND Repentance, Lk 24: 47. Acts 2: 38.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

I think it's worth pointing out that both long and short conclusions of Mark [Mark 16:9-20] are considered by most bible scholars are spurious and not part of the original text.

"The two oldest manuscripts of Mark 16 (from the 300s) conclude with verse 8 [...] Many scholars take 16:8 as the original ending and believe the longer ending (16:9-20) was a later addition." - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_16

"Clement of Alexandria and Origen [early third century] show no knowledge of the existence of these verses; furthermore Eusebius and Jerome attest that the passage was absent from almost all Greek copies of Mark known to them. - A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, Bruce Metzger, professor Emeritus of New Testament Language and Literature at Princeton Theological Seminary, 2005, p.123

"we can accept the passage [was] not an original portion of St. Marks Gospel" - Sir Frederic Kenyon1951, p. 174

[The Longer conclusion] may well be from the beginning of the second century - Aland and Aland, 1987, pp. 69,227

The inference therefore seems to me to be, that it [was] placed as a completion of the Gospel in very early times: by whom written, must of course remain wholly uncertain" Henry Alford, textual critic

Mark 16:9-10. Now begins the apocryphal fragment of some other evangelical treatise (doubtless written very much in the way of epitome), which has been added as a conclusion of our Gospel." Meyer's New Testament Commentary
biblehub.com/commentaries/mark/16-9.htm

[Saved75]

It not only says that they will be saved, but it also promises quite a few other things:

They will be able to drink any deadly thing and it shall not hurt them.

And they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover.

Mark 16:
[15] And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
[16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
[17] And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
[18] They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
[19] So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
[20] And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Who does this apply to? Certainly not modern day Christians. I haven't heard about any Christians who can drink any deadly thing and not be hurt by it. And I also haven't heard of any Christians who can heal people by simply laying their hands on them.

It seems to me that these things should be a "test" of a "True Christian". Have them drink a cup of gasoline or other deadly substance and not be hurt by it.

And also have them go into a hospital and empty the place by just laying their hands on the people there.

And if they can't do these things, then according to words attributed to Jesus they must not be "Baptized Believers". And therefore they can hardly claim to be "true Christians".

This is what I want to know:

How can anyone who cannot do these things claim to be a "believer"?

Similar claims are made in John 14:

[12] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
[13] And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
[14] If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Anyone who can't do greater works than Jesus and cannot do whatever they ask in Jesus' name has no business claiming that they believe in Jesus because according to Jesus, if hey believe on him, they should be able to do these things.

Jesus has set the criteria for what a "True Christian" must be able to do.

Please note the words, "He that believeth", V16, & " Them that believe" v17.
The signs are for every Christian who believes, The signs won't work for those who don't believe.

That doesn't mean Christians have to look for a snake or deadly drinks, But if a snake bit a Christian, or someone tried to poison them, It wouldn't harm them.

Every Christian can and should lay hands on the sick, and the promise is,
"They SHALL recover".

[Saved75]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

I think it's worth pointing out that both long and short conclusions of Mark [Mark 16:9-20] are considered by most bible scholars are spurious and not part of the original text.

"The two oldest manuscripts of Mark 16 (from the 300s) conclude with verse 8 [...] Many scholars take 16:8 as the original ending and believe the longer ending (16:9-20) was a later addition." - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_16

"Clement of Alexandria and Origen [early third century] show no knowledge of the existence of these verses; furthermore Eusebius and Jerome attest that the passage was absent from almost all Greek copies of Mark known to them. - A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, Bruce Metzger, professor Emeritus of New Testament Language and Literature at Princeton Theological Seminary, 2005, p.123

"we can accept the passage [was] not an original portion of St. Marks Gospel" - Sir Frederic Kenyon1951, p. 174

[The Longer conclusion] may well be from the beginning of the second century - Aland and Aland, 1987, pp. 69,227

The inference therefore seems to me to be, that it [was] placed as a completion of the Gospel in very early times: by whom written, must of course remain wholly uncertain" Henry Alford, textual critic

Mark 16:9-10. Now begins the apocryphal fragment of some other evangelical treatise (doubtless written very much in the way of epitome), which has been added as a conclusion of our Gospel." Meyer's New Testament Commentary
biblehub.com/commentaries/mark/16-9.htm

Most of the original manuscripts had Vs 15--20 of Mark 16, In them.
And most Born again, Spirit filled Bible scholars, knew Mk 16 had Vs 16--20 in the best of the earliest manuscripts.

So we can accept that Mk 16: 1--20 is the true account.

[JehovahsWitness]

So we can accept that Mk 16: 1--20 is the true account.

Did I say otherwise? I simply pointed out that Mk 16: 1-8 is generally agreed to have been part of the original text and verses 9-20 are not.

Most of the original manuscripts had Vs 15--20 of Mark 16, In them.

We don't HAVE any original manuscripts so that statement is untrue.

And most Born again, Spirit filled Bible scholars, knew Mk 16 had Vs 16--20 in the best of the earliest manuscripts.

I would have no idea which bible scholars are "born again, spirit filled" so I cannot comment on that, neither do I feel qualified to judge which manuscripts are "the best" but I do know that the verses do not appear in the earliest manuscripts we currently have.



JW

[JLB32168]

Believe WHAT? Baptized by who, how?

Believe the stuff weve been teaching (preach the Gospel which is what he said right before the verse you cited,) which includes following commandments, praying, avoiding sin, repentance, forgiveness, worship, and everything else (love one another including enemies.)

The verses were added later to make finding stuff easier since the original Greek was written in all caps, w/o spaces between the words, and w/o any other sort of references.

Im not sure why this would be confusing to anyone.

[PghPanther]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Which begs the question.......

If the closed canon of manuscripts that have been proclaimed as holy scriptures allows such made up additions to be tacked on to the text then what sort of integrity does that whole process have to begin with?

Good grief I'm sure glad the scientific method doesn't work this way...........which explains why science leads to all applied technologies in the progress of society.......... and ancient proclaimed holy scriptures results in?

Nothing..........

[PghPanther]

It not only says that they will be saved, but it also promises quite a few other things:

They will be able to drink any deadly thing and it shall not hurt them.

And they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover.

Mark 16:
[15] And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
[16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
[17] And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
[18] They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
[19] So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
[20] And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Who does this apply to? Certainly not modern day Christians. I haven't heard about any Christians who can drink any deadly thing and not be hurt by it. And I also haven't heard of any Christians who can heal people by simply laying their hands on them.

It seems to me that these things should be a "test" of a "True Christian". Have them drink a cup of gasoline or other deadly substance and not be hurt by it.

And also have them go into a hospital and empty the place by just laying their hands on the people there.

And if they can't do these things, then according to words attributed to Jesus they must not be "Baptized Believers". And therefore they can hardly claim to be "true Christians".

This is what I want to know:

How can anyone who cannot do these things claim to be a "believer"?

Similar claims are made in John 14:

[12] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
[13] And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
[14] If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Anyone who can't do greater works than Jesus and cannot do whatever they ask in Jesus' name has no business claiming that they believe in Jesus because according to Jesus, if hey believe on him, they should be able to do these things.

Jesus has set the criteria for what a "True Christian" must be able to do.

Please note the words, "He that believeth", V16, & " Them that believe" v17.
The signs are for every Christian who believes, The signs won't work for those who don't believe.

That doesn't mean Christians have to look for a snake or deadly drinks, But if a snake bit a Christian, or someone tried to poison them, It wouldn't harm them.

Every Christian can and should lay hands on the sick, and the promise is,
"They SHALL recover".

That's nonsense....................lay hands on someone with a burst appendix and see how well that works.....