Evangelicals vs. Jehovah's Witnesses

[Elijah John]

Evangelicals often call Jehovah's Witnesses, a "cult" and not Christian.

Jehovah's Witnesses, seem to consider Roman Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox etc, "not-Christian" (JWs please correct me if I'm wrong on this)

Question for debate, why can't all of these groups rightly be considered "Christian"?

And part two of this OP question is directed primarily to Evangelicals, why don't you consider JWs to be Christian?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 10 by Elijah John]

okay, just wondering; thanks for answering.

JW

[onewithhim]

And part two of this OP question is directed primarily to Evangelicals, why don't you consider JWs to be Christian?

Any answer to this question will express a fondness for some interpretations of scripture over others. While both sides do in fact have their spokespersons who claim to never interpret anything but they just point out what is written, this stance is disingenuous at best and downright serpentine at worst.

Therefore the famous call to is meaningless because without the leading of the Holy Spirit, you are depending upon your own understanding against HIS advice. It is my firm belief that those who demand more study are those who do not know the leading of the Spirit. Seek HIM first, then follow His lead which may be more study.

I have changed my opinion about what I believed to be true many things. I vacillated for years between an Arminian pov against the Calvinist until I made up my mind I was being led to accept that they were both wrong. That does not mean that I think everyone in these congregations are Satanic or non-Christians because I know that I myself used to be there and if I can be led out, anyone can be.

Nor do I believe that every sinful elect must understand the fullness of a correct theology to be saved. Faith in Christ is all that is needed for salvation whether you are too emotionally or mentally incapacitated to learn theology or not. This is to say that though I believe that most Congregations are living in error and are often led by false spirits, I do not necessarily accept all members of any congregation as a Cain, a reprobate worshipping in the Church. I also think it is possible for a Congregation to be more given to the lying spirit than others, even if none is perfect. Thus I can say that I may think a Congregation is not Christian without meaning to say that every person in the Church is Satanic any more than I believe every non-believer is Satanic.

Any error is just as evil as any other error. No one is without theological error because we don't know the full truth yet, yet we have no holes in our theologies....therefore our patch jobs look like the gospel truth and we can't tell the difference.

So, back to the topic, I think that the foundation of the WTS is sand going back to the 1800's and the whitewash of their errors and changes to cover errors are suspect. And no, I will not contend against any Witnesses, Mormons, Arminians, Calvinists or Catholics who want to engage me with their pov. It is not my calling and I know better than to try to do GOD's job for HIM.

Study is necessary. The Holy Spirit doesn't just suddenly give anybody knowledge and understanding if there is nothing there to work with. It will bring back to mind those things that the person puts there.

Carefully examining the scriptures is plainly encouraged by Paul, as he lauded the Beroean Jews for "[receiving] the word with great eagerness, examining the scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. Therefore many of them believed, along with a number of prominent Greek women and men." (Acts 17:11,12, NASB)

So obviously first a person has to examine, or, study the scriptures, and after that they would become a believer.

JWs do indeed seek to have the Holy Spirit, and we know that Jehovah will give it to us if we ask. It, the H.S., does help us to know the meaning of what we study. Jesus spoke of the necessity of KNOWING God, and how do we know Him if we don't read His Word? (John 17:3)

We don't think of every member of misled churches as wicked and irredeemable either. Otherwise we wouldn't go out to speak to people about the Bible. It is the religion itself that is tainted....the teachings perpetrated by the leaders of that church. God admonishes people to GET OUT of false religions (Revelation 18:4).

I have found that JWs are the only people that follow Christ to the letter as closely as they can (being imperfect humans, as is everyone). Every religion there is has made (what they thought were) educated guesses as to what would happen. Popes, innumerable sects, the Wesley brothers (Methodists), and on and on....so condemning JWs for doing so is, I would say, irresponsible. It says something for the WTS that they finally realized that it was not something that they should be doing, and they stopped trying to figure out when the end would come, though they knew we could see the SEASON by examining Jesus' composite sign of his return. (Matt.24)

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Elijah John]

Why Jehovah's Witnesses (JW) teaching and practices are not Christian?

First, let us answer the question, who is considered Christian?

In 1John 4:2 we have been told, “This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God�, And in 1Timothy 3:16, we read, “great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit,…� Here you can see a simple explanation: God who is capable of doing anything, decided at one point in time to appear in a form of a man to fulfill a great purpose.

If Jehovahs’ Witness teaching is in line with the Bible, how come they do not believe that Christ is God appearing in a form of a man and, simply, if you will, equal to God?
Jehovahs’ Witness believes that Lord Christ is just one of his creations and is inferior to God.

This is a belief that is in a stark contrast to the overwhelming Biblical teaching declaring the fact that Lord Christ is one with God and is God.
I would like to provide here few, yet, very clear and powerful Biblical verses attested to the fact that Lord Crist is indeed God manifested himself in a form of a man.

Who is omnipotent (all powerful)? Philippians 3:20-21

Who is omniscient (all knowing)? Colossians 2:2-3

Who is omnipresent (present everywhere)? 2 Corinthians 2:14

Who is Lord of Sabbath? Matthew 12:8

Who is the great "I am?" John 8:58

Who is the only creator? John 1:3

Who is the only savior? Acts 4:12

Who will judge mankind? 2 Corinthians 5:10

Who will judge between the sheep and goats? Matthew 25:31-33

Who sent the prophets? Matthew 23:34

Who is "coming in glory?" Matthew 24:30

Who is the "first and last?" Revelation 1:17

Who is Rock of salvation? 1 Corinthians 10:4

Who is Stone of stumbling? 1 Peter 2:8

After all the above truth, how could an organization like Jehovahs’ Witness could be considered Christian, represents Christianity or its founder the Lord J. Christ?

You try to prove Jesus is God by referring to erroneous translations. It has been shown, for example, that I Timothy 3:16 as you quote it is a corrupted translation. The older manuscripts do not say that "God was manifest in the flesh." The verse reads, in version after version, that "HE was manifest in the flesh," or, "WHO was manifested in the flesh." Not "God."

Just two versions who corrected the error are:

New American Standard Bible: "By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: HE who was revealed in the flesh..."

New International Version: "Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: HE appeared in a body..."


(Jesus was certainly "godly," but not God.) There are many more that show that "God" is not in the accepted rendering of that verse. Since you are not informed about this, I might suspect that the rest of your verses really do not show that Jesus is God. Many of your verses refer to Jesus' Father and God, not Jesus. (See John 20:17.) And "the great I Am" has been thoroughly explained to show that Jesus was not quoting Exodus 3:14. If you want, I can explain it once again.

There is no "overwhelming Biblical teaching" that Jesus is God. You are relying on corrupt translations and ambiguous verses (that could be taken more than one way). And JWs aren't the only ones saying that certain verses have been corrupted. It is a widely known fact among Bible scholars. I would suggest you bring yourself up to date.

[Elijah John]

The verse reads, in version after version, that "HE was manifest in the flesh," or, "WHO was manifested in the flesh." Not "God."

Just two versions who corrected the error are:

New American Standard Bible: "By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: HE who was revealed in the flesh..."

New International Version: "Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: HE appeared in a body..."

Just want to add, those verses that indicate that Jesus "came in the flesh" were for the purpose of countering the heresy that held Jesus was only a Spirit.

(Jesus was certainly "godly," but not God.)

Well put. Also, arian put it this way, that the "infinite cannot become finite".

And "the great I Am" has been thoroughly explained to show that Jesus was not quoting Exodus 3:14. If you want, I can explain it once again.

I agree with you here, but would love to hear your refutation...to save you the trouble of explaining it once again, would you mind posting a link or a post # reference?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 14 by Elijah John]

I made notes so I would know just where I explained this, but I can't find the notes! I also have a lot of great material from other people on these websites but it's all in a big pile in the middle of my office, due to "organizing." LOL

I'm not very computer-savvy, to say the least. Anyway, I have given John 8:58 a lot of thought, and I researched it fairly thoroughly.


To begin with, the words of Jesus at John 8:58 were translated in a very sloppy way, forgetting the rules for translating from the Greek. Just because someone noticed that when Jesus used "ego eimi" there (which he used very often; it's a common expression) it seemed to match Exodus 3:14! That erroneous observation was somehow carried over into subsequent versions of the Bible.

Everywhere else "ego eimi" was translated using good grammatical form. At John 8:58 it is translated into warring tenses, if you will. Past tense in the same thought as present tense. Is there a particularly difficult or convoluted Greek clause underlying this mess of English? No, Jesus uses fine, idiomatic Greek. It can be rendered straightforwardly into English by doing what translators always do with Greek, namely, rearrange the word order into normal English order, and adjust things like verbal tense complementarity into proper English expression. These steps of translation are necessary because Greek and English are not the same language and do not obey the same rules of grammar. (See Truth in Translation by Jason BeDuhn, chapter 10.)

"In John 8:58, since Jesus' existence is not completed past action, but ongoing, we must use some sort of imperfect verbal form to convey that: 'I have been since before Abraham came to be.' That's as close as we can get to what the Greek says in our own language if we pay attention to all parts of the sentence."

I love the way Dr. BeDuhn says: "Why would translators, whose job it is to make the Bible into comprehensible, good quality English, choose an awkward, ungrammatical rendering instead? Why do Bible translations which in thousands of other verses freely change word order relative to the original Greek suddenly find reason to follow exactly the Greek, producing an ungrammatical and syntactically strained sentence, in this instance? The answer is: THEOLOGICAL BIAS."

On top of that, when we really look at Exodus 3:14, we find out that there are translators who don't even render the phrase in question as "I Am." E.g., Leeser: "I Will Be That I Will Be"; Rotherham: "I Will Become Whatsoever I Please." How do those renderings line up with Jesus' ego eimi?

So we can see that most versions' rendering of John 8:58 are spurious. I have a list somewhere of versions that keep to the rules of translation and say:

"I have been, before Abraham was born," or, "I was in existence before Abraham was ever born."

There are more of those versions than the ones who say what the KJV says. I'll continue to look for that information.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 15 by onewithhim]

Thank you owh, for your efforts. Good case.

[tigger2]

Onewithhim wrote:

And "the great I Am" has been thoroughly explained to show that Jesus was not quoting Exodus 3:14. If you want, I can explain it once again.

Elijah John replied:

I agree with you here, but would love to hear your refutation...to save you the trouble of explaining it once again, would you mind posting a link or a post # reference?

………………….
My studies from my blog:

I Am
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.co ... t-1.html

1 Tim. 3:16
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.co ... kjv.html

John 1:1c
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.co ... c-a.html

[Peds nurse]

Hello people!!

I thought that I would give my two cents, which probably isn't worth much

The divisions in Christianity make me sad. We created our own ideas of who we think God is, coupled with our own self-righteous interpretation of scriptures. These self imposed denominations have caused way more harm than good, and are a detraction from the over all goal, which is to share His love with the world.

IMO, we have no right to judge whether or not group A meets the standard for Christianity, while group B does not. We meet God on an individual basis, and not on the conformity to some denomination.

Blessings sweet people!

[E.G]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

I would like to emphasis, at the onset, that my real goal and motive has always been finding the truth. For those who want to win an argument thinking, subconsciously, that it would make them look smarter and boost their ego in front of people close to them, the Lord Christ has one thing to say to this group: "For what does it benefit a man to gain the whole world yet lose his life?" Mark 8:36.

Many of us, including myself, believed what we had believed, perhaps because of the family we were born in, yet, many, had the courage to challenge what was passed down to us or even imposed on us. Others are in their way, and of course, there always will be the weak ones who cannot leave their comfort zone and let go of the crutch that makes them feel good for a while, same like an addiction.

Common sense approach to the discussion

Jehovahs’ Witness believes that Lord Christ is just one of God's creations and is inferior to God.

If Jesus was created by God the same way he created the angels, (which sometimes are referred to as sons of God), why then is Jesus the only one who has been described in the Bible by words that only describe God? These words were used exclusively as an adjective besides the name God.

Do you know what the word son means in the original language and culture? Would you laugh if you heard me saying: "Steve is son of California" (the state, not a lady by the name California)?

In the original language and the culture of the lands during Lord Christ time on earth, (where I had lived for many years and learned the language and understood the culture), the word son is used to imply that a person carries and reflects the same characteristics and attributes of the relevant reference used in the sentence.

Option "B"

If referring to Jesus as son of God implies the presence of a mother in heaven. This is going to present a whole new problematic situation, trying to find one verse in the Bible indicates the existence of a wife. This simply will take us to another organization that is not Christian, i.e., Mormonism.

Moving forward using a common-sense argument:

Would anyone have an intellectual problem accepting this statement: "God who is capable of doing anything, decided at one point in time to appear in a form of a man to fulfill a great purpose?" That is exactly what 1Timothy 3:16, tells us, “great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit,…�

Now, as I mentioned previously, there are overwhelming verses throughout the entire Bible referring and attesting unequivocally that Lord Christ is in fact God appeared in the flesh. In a similar way, the Bible never once referred to any of the most powerful and prominent angels, nor any of the most famous people in the Bible.

Here are some more supporting references:

Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last). How then could he be created?

Revelation 22:13 - “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.�... 22:16 - “

Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,� which is translated, “God with us.�

John 1:1-3 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. How much explanation is needed here?

John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.� The name “I AM� exclusively belongs to God.

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!�

Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men. Since when is a son considered equal to his father?

Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ Colossians 2:9 - For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. So, if he possesses the fullness, how much is left for God?

2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Based on this verse alone, it is impossible to classify Jehovahs Witness’s doctrine and teaching as Christian.

This presentation was about Jehovahs Witness’s doctrine. How about the people who follow this organization at this time? I say again unequivocally, they are equal humans loved by God and deserve the ultimate respect. On the other hand, based on the presented facts, they are on the wrong track.

One more helpful hint: if a verse in the Bible does not fit one’s agenda, you cannot rush to call the translation “corrupt�. Everyone needs to have a certain amount of knowledge to make such a claim. How about the language and religion experts who went to the world's museums and inspected original Biblical manuscripts verifying the accuracy, and the variations that were found were insignificant.

Secondly and finally, no intelligent theory or just a simple logical claim can be established based on one or two verses. That is why I provided here this assortment of verses.

Thank you.

[tigger2]

[Replying to post 19 by E.G]

I have honest responses to all your scriptures.

I would be happy to respond one at a time whenever you can give intelligent, honest responses to the three links I have given in post 17.

These are entirely my own studies. But if you won't respond fully and honestly to them, there isn't much reason to take on more.