Jesus is Lord?

[man]

Jesus is Lord!

I have seen this on bumper stickers, TV and the internet, but I'm not quite sure what it means.

It seems to be saying that Jesus and the God are the same thing, is this correct?

[Monta]

[Replying to ttruscott]

Three divine attributes - Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
God is one. Jehovah in the OT is the the Lord in NT.

We are are also triune - body, soul, spirit.

[onewithhim]

Jesus is Lord!

I have seen this on bumper stickers, TV and the internet, but I'm not quite sure what it means.

It seems to be saying that Jesus and the God are the same thing, is this correct?

No. Jesus is called "Lord of lords" or "Lord" (I Corinthians 8:6 and Revelation 19:16, also Ephesians 4:5), distinct from God who is a separate Person. You can discern this if you take time to read even these three verses that I cited.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 3 by tigger2]

... yes, "wife" isn't a title. My bad. Actually I still had time to edit so I took "wife" out ..

Thanks "Eagle Eye".


JW

Why is "wife" NOT a title? I would consider it one.

[onewithhim]

Jesus is Lord!

I have seen this on bumper stickers, TV and the internet, but I'm not quite sure what it means.

It seems to be saying that Jesus and the God are the same thing, is this correct?

The story of doubting Thomas:
John 20:26-28King James Version (KJV)

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

This is one of the very few verses that trinitarians bring up to show that Christ is God, yet it is, predictably, a weak attempt. The verses they use invariably, without exception, are either corruptions of the text OR they can be taken more than one way.

What Thomas said cannot absolutely be understood to mean that Jesus is God. To think that he was merely making an emphatic statement is not unreasonable. Do we even now sometimes exclaim, "Oh my God!" when we suddenly see or understand something awesome? I know I do. I am not stating that the person over which I am exclaiming is God.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1 by man]

Not in my opinion no.

It is astonishing that such a major claim is the subject of humble opinion rather than revealed truth, for Jehovah's Witnesses. One would have expected solid confirmation somewhere that either JESUS IS GOD or JESUS IS NOT GOD. For it to be reduced to a mere matter of opinion, by one believer, is a big surprise. And, we must be honest, does not say a lot for some Christian sects as having certainty in their beliefs. This is one area where infallibility becomes very useful, as in the RC Church.

It's so obvious to see that the RCC is far from infallible, and it wasn't even a RC teaching until fairly recent centuries (or maybe it was decades). Anyway, the Scriptures DO clearly confirm that Jesus is not God, and I have shown this so many times I can't believe people haven't gotten the idea----that is, people I've converses with on these forums for years. In fact I've listed the same scriptures over and over, showing that Jesus has stated that he is not God, and I've asked people to explain to me how they show that Jesus IS God, but I've had no takers on that! NO ONE has commented on the verses that I cited! Here they are again....tell me that they DON'T say that Jesus is subordinate to God:

(1) JOHN 5:19,30: "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of himself, unless it is something he sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner....I can do nothing on my own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will, but the will of Him who sent me." (NASB)

(2) JOHN 6:38: "For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him who sent me."

(3) JOHN 8:29,29: "...I do nothing of my own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught me. And He who sent me is with me; He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him."

(4) JOHN 12:49,50: "For I did not speak on my own initiative, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. I know His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told me."

(5) JOHN 14:24,28: "He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me....You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

(6) JOHN 17:3: "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

(7) JOHN 20:17: "...Go to my brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.'"



Will anyone give a thoughtful reply?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1 by man]

Not in my opinion no.

"Lord" is a title, like "Mr" or "Teacher" and the title "Lord" in scripture is not only applied to YHWH (Jehovah) but to humans, other (false) gods, and as you mention Jesus. Just as calling to two different people "Sir" doesn't imply they are all one and the same person, calling Jesus Lord doesn't of itself imply they are both the same person.


JW

My problem with that interpretation is it smacks of polytheism.

If Jesus and God were the same person the polytheism problem goes away which from what I have read in other places from basic christians to theologists is what gave the Jesus is Lord saying its start.

Polytheism? It is the trinitarian belief that "smacks of polytheism." They tell us that Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Add them up. I get THREE GODS.

I don't see how calling Jesus "Lord" would be polytheistic. "Lord" does not automatically mean "God." There is ONE GOD, the Father....the one that Jesus called "the only true God" (John 17:3), and the one that Paul said of: "Yet for us there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER." (I Corinthians 8:6)

ONE GOD. NOT THREE.

[onewithhim]

Jesus is Lord!

I have seen this on bumper stickers, TV and the internet, but I'm not quite sure what it means.

It seems to be saying that Jesus and the God are the same thing, is this correct?

I think the way most modern bumper-sticker Christians mean it is that "Jesus is God".

But that is not the original meaning of the expression. To Paul, it meant "Jesus is master" our best authority for understanding things Divine and the mediator for access to the Divine.

In the OT/Hebrew Bible "LORD" always meant YHVH, Lord meant Adonai ( "my Lord, referring to YHVH)

Only in the NT does the lower case "Lord" refer to Jesus.

And even in the NT YHWH has been obliterated. Where God's personal name was included in old manuscripts, it is deleted in modern translations. So sometimes where it says "Lord" it might be referring to YHWH. (See Acts 2:34 where Jehovah is definitely referred to.) It's hard to tell, and that is thanks to men through the centuries altering the texts to irradicate God's name.




[/i]

[liamconnor]

Jesus is Lord!

I have seen this on bumper stickers, TV and the internet, but I'm not quite sure what it means.

It seems to be saying that Jesus and the God are the same thing, is this correct?

I don't know who made the bumper stickers or how the driver interprets them; nor will I answer the philosophical question of whether Jesus is actually co-eternal with the Father.

But there is no doubt that the N.T. unanimously considers him to be so. The Christian orthodox theology of "God incarnate" and "Trinity" is Biblical: that is, the exegetical question (what did they believe) is "Yes"

The philosophical question (was what they believed true?) I leave untouched for now.

It is true that Kurios (Greek) can be an elevated title for mere humans.

However, it is also true that God in the LXX (the Greek translation of the O.T. used by the authors of the N.T.) is addressed as both THEOS and Kurios.

All of the epistles (the earliest of Christian writings and therefore the window through which we see the earliest of Christian beliefs) affirms that Jesus was God incarnate and use Kurios as the LXX uses it of YHWH, though the terms "God incarnate" are not used; and why should they be? the authors were Jews. so of course they used not only their own verbal language but their own conceptual language).

It is quite possible to run through the epistles and gospels and demonstrate that the authors believed Jesus was coeternal with the God of the O.T.; if you require exegetical proof.

hope that helps.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by man]

Not in my opinion no.

It is astonishing that such a major claim is the subject of humble opinion rather than revealed truth, for Jehovah's Witnesses. One would have expected solid confirmation somewhere that either JESUS IS GOD or JESUS IS NOT GOD. For it to be reduced to a mere matter of opinion, by one believer, is a big surprise. And, we must be honest, does not say a lot for some Christian sects as having certainty in their beliefs. This is one area where infallibility becomes very useful, as in the RC Church.

It's so obvious to see that the RCC is far from infallible, and it wasn't even a RC teaching until fairly recent centuries (or maybe it was decades). Anyway, the Scriptures DO clearly confirm that Jesus is not God, and I have shown this so many times I can't believe people haven't gotten the idea----that is, people I've converses with on these forums for years. In fact I've listed the same scriptures over and over, showing that Jesus has stated that he is not God, and I've asked people to explain to me how they show that Jesus IS God, but I've had no takers on that! NO ONE has commented on the verses that I cited! Here they are again....tell me that they DON'T say that Jesus is subordinate to God:

(1) JOHN 5:19,30: "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of himself, unless it is something he sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner....I can do nothing on my own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will, but the will of Him who sent me." (NASB)

(2) JOHN 6:38: "For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him who sent me."

(3) JOHN 8:29,29: "...I do nothing of my own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught me. And He who sent me is with me; He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him."

(4) JOHN 12:49,50: "For I did not speak on my own initiative, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. I know His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told me."

(5) JOHN 14:24,28: "He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me....You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

(6) JOHN 17:3: "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

(7) JOHN 20:17: "...Go to my brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.'"



Will anyone give a thoughtful reply?

Just to add 1 Timothy 2.5

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.

There may be others, but I think you've covered most fo the bases!

[Elijah John]

Jesus is Lord!

I have seen this on bumper stickers, TV and the internet, but I'm not quite sure what it means.

It seems to be saying that Jesus and the God are the same thing, is this correct?

I think the way most modern bumper-sticker Christians mean it is that "Jesus is God".

But that is not the original meaning of the expression. To Paul, it meant "Jesus is master" our best authority for understanding things Divine and the mediator for access to the Divine.

In the OT/Hebrew Bible "LORD" always meant YHVH, Lord meant Adonai ( "my Lord, referring to YHVH)

Only in the NT does the lower case "Lord" refer to Jesus.

And even in the NT YHWH has been obliterated. Where God's personal name was included in old manuscripts, it is deleted in modern translations. So sometimes where it says "Lord" it might be referring to YHWH. (See Acts 2:34 where Jehovah is definitely referred to.) It's hard to tell, and that is thanks to men through the centuries altering the texts to irradicate God's name.

[/i]

That is sad. I do like and respect the way the NWT has restored some of the NT references to YHVH, when it is clear that OT Scripture is being quoted, and in certain other cases.

What may be encouraging is that even outside of the JW organization, some are rediscovering the importance of the Divine name. Some Evangelicals refer to "Jehovah" or "Yahweh" and an Evangelical couple Peter and Linda-Miller Russo have published "Proclaim His Holy Name" , and also the "Proclaim His Holy Name Bible" which is based on the KJV, but with all the "LORD"s restored to "Yehovah".

I recommend the book and their version of the Bible.

Also, Keith E Johnson's "His Hallowed Name Revealed Again". I don't think he is either a JW or an Evangelical, but this book demonstrates he really understands the importance of The Name as well. Highly recommended.