[
Replying to Blastcat]
Warning: This will be a lengthy post including a lot of data and statistics. Providing evidence requires both evidence and explanation.
Though we had to go through a lot of back and forth to get here, lets now take a look at some evidence for the omnipotent, omniscient, creator of the universe and mankind: God as identified in the bible. There is more evidence than what I present here, but this forum is not best place to decipher and scrutinize information.
(note: I am aware that RonE stipulated in point 4 that he does not want to allow the bible to be introduced as a form of scientific evidence, but I find this to be impossible and irrational. He asks for proof of the Christian God as found in the bible and then asks to do so without the same bible that gives believers the most information about the One they believe in.)
Claim/Hypothesis: God as defined in the Christian Bible is real, omnipotent, omniscient, sovereign, creator of the universe and mankind
Sequence of evidence
I. [center]
Historical record (undisputed facts only) [/center]
The bible is a collection of books written by various authors throughout history. This is a fact I doubt any will refute. It was once believed that sections of the bible could have been altered to make it match known historical records. Prior to the discovery of the dead sea scrolls (DSS), the earlies copy of the bible dated somewhere in the 10th century AD. This meant it would have been possible for someone to include facts known about Jesus and change old testament scriptures to make them fit. The discovery of the DSS between 1947-1956 debunked this theory and found that the old testament recorded in these historical writings matched the current King James version with 95% accuracy. The only difference was due to spelling differences of certain names of people or cities, and no book Esther. The texts were found in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. The collection of old testament documents in the DSS were dated using various dating methods between 200 BC – AD 26. There were also other writings found which have a greater date range of possible creation, 400 BC – AD 300.
I now ask, what is the probability of any historical book of similar length (old testament only) dated from earliest found to 200 BC, being translated into multiple languages, while retaining 95% accuracy, over 1000 years? To find this we must find the probability of each event, and multiply their probabilities.
According to Google’s advanced algorithms there are about 210 million unique books that have been ever been written. Of these, Google says 129M have been published. We know the printing press was not invented until the mid1400s, and paper making is attributed to China around AD 105. If I cut in half the remaining unpublished books by half for those used by the printing press and paper, I am left with about 20M books which could have existed in the world prior to AD 105. Lets say half of this books are of similar length to the old testament.
Now we have 10M/20M books multiplied by number of books translated into multiple languages, 1/100, multiplied by the t-stat value 0.05, 1/1.96, multiplied by time between translation comparisons 1/1000 = (0.5) X (1/100) X (1/1.96) X (1/1000) = 2.5 X 10^-5
So the probability of the old testament being altered as a matter of historical text written before the birth of Jesus is 2.5 in 100,000.
II. [center]
Statistical analysis of content found in historical book (Bible) about Jesus [/center]
The above was included only to illustrate that a collection of writings dating about 200 years before the birth of Jesus, included writings that claim to have prophesied his coming with pinpoint accuracy. Now any reasoned person would expect a claim of prophecy to be met with skepticism. I will use the words of famed atheist Douglass Krueger to identify the test one must pass to prove a prophecy is accurate:
� Some criteria are needed in order to distinguish cases of lucky guesses from those of true prophecy. Let us define a genuine prophecy as one that satisfies the following five criteria:
1. The prophecy must be clear, and it must contain sufficient detail to make its fulfillment by a wide variety of possible events unlikely.
2. The event that can fulfill the prophecy must be unusual or unique.
3. The prophecy must be known to have been made before the event that is supposed to be its fulfillment.
4. The event foretold must not be of the sort that could be the result of an educated guess.
5. The event that fulfills the prophecy cannot be staged, or the relevant circumstances manipulated, by those aware of the prophecy in such a way as to intentionally cause the prophecy to be fulfilled."
There are over 300 prophecies in the bible about Jesus. There are 60 prophecies that meet the criteria above about the birth, life and death of Jesus found in the writings dated as early as 200 years before his birth, and as late as 50 years before his birth, BC 50. I will only use 5 as evidence, as using all 60 would make this post a book, and not short enough to reply to.
1. Jesus the Messiah will be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2).
The average population of Bethlehem from the time of Micah (population estimates based on prb.org data) divided by the average population of the earth during the same period = 7,150/2,000,000,000 or 2.8×10^-5.
2. Jesus the Messiah will enter Jerusalem as a king riding on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9).
One man divided by the number of known kings, who has entered Jerusalem as a ruler, and has entered riding on a donkey? 1/100 = 1×10^-2
3. Jesus the Messiah will die by having His hands and feet pierced (Psalm 22:16).
One man in how many, since the time of David, has been crucified?
About 10,000 estimated crucifixions(about 6000 alone from the Spartacus revolt) divided by 10,000,000 capital executions worldwide = 10K / 10M or 1×10^-4
4. Jesus the Messiah will be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12), and the betrayal money will be used to purchase a potter’s field.
Of the people who have been betrayed, one in how many has been betrayed for exactly 30 pieces of silver? Estimate: 1 in 100 or 1×10^-2
One man in how many, after receiving a bribe for the betrayal of a friend, and then experienced it being used to buy a potter’s field? Estimate: 1 in 1,000 or (1×10^-3)
Totaling 1 in 100,000,000 (1×10^-2) × (1×10-3) =1×10^-5
5. Jesus the Messiah will be born and die within a the span of 483 years of the date a decree is given to allow Jerusalem to be rebuilt (Daniel 9:24-25).
One man in how many, claiming to be the messiah, born within a specific 483-year time period, completing all events written about him, before age 34
1 in 10,000 or 1×10^-4
Just combining these 5, we arrive at an astounding unlikely probability of 2.8×10^-20 of all these prophesied events occurring in life of one person. This means the probability of these prophesies being true each would require a great deal of luck, but for them all to coincide is near mathematical impossibility. If we combine this with the probability of where these prophesies were recorded, in the Bible, we would find a ridiculous probability of 7×10^-25 chance of all of these events being a coincidence. That’s 7 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Please remember this is only 5, out of 60 prophecies which would meet the qualifications as outlined by Krueger. Bringing in all 300 prophecies would push the probability so far, that most would say it is impossible.
Another way of stating this is that a Christian can assert with 95% confidence that the old testament spoke about Jesus at least 50-200 years before he was born, and described his life in detail down to 0.00000000000000000000000007 level accuracy. There is no other book in history which has even come close to performing this level of prophecy.
III. [center]
Jesus is God in the flesh [/center]
You may have wondered by now, what does this prove. My summary is that the old testament portion of the bible is a historical book that at a minimum included writings about Jesus 50-200 years before he was alive on Earth. So far, this doesn’t seem to prove anything about God, but the key here is that Christians hold that Jesus is God in the flesh. We believe that God took on the form of a human being, and symbolically turned off a portion of his omnipotence, omnipresence so He could fix the broken relationship between God and mankind. The prophetic claims made in the bible are supernaturally accurate, unless you hold that making a prediction with the above level accuracy to be a normal event.
So if the prophecies about Jesus are highly if not supernaturally accurate, then what does that say about the authors of such a text. If they claim this prophecy was done by their own will, these would be the greatest mathematical minds in the world. Instead the writers of these prophesies claim that the information was given to them by a supernatural, omnipotent, omnipresent God. It is this God who told them His plan, and that He was getting ready to do something that would not only change the world forever, but be His greatest display of Godliness. Something so supernatural, that it would seem impossible even to those who believe He exists. God telling humans that He was going to become a man, is the craziest thing ever postulated, but only an all-powerful God would be able to do this.
The evidence for this can only be found in the miracles Jesus did and the fact that he is not dead, but resurrected from the grave. I will set this aside, as the evidence is mostly historical records from non-biblical witnesses, and RonE has desired to exclude eye witness testimony,
---------------------
The following points are not evidence in an empirical sense, but serve to give some insight into why we Christians believe what we believe.
IV. [center]
The laws of our world or universe do not and cannot apply to God [/center]
I pose this question, can God be a true God and be limited by the laws of physics? The definition of omnipotence below would logically bring us to a being who is not and cannot be limited by physical laws, mathematical rules, astronomical principles, etc.
omnipotent: having unlimited power; able to do anything
Miracles are what believers use as proof that the laws of our universe cannot apply to God. When a miracle takes place that defies all logic, explanation or even the laws of nature/physics, the thought that some person or force with power greater than nature must have intervened.
V. [center]
God of the bible is not visible in our dimension but we perceive His existence through His signature[/center]
Apple, Inc. wants everyone to use their products. To do this they make their product available and advertise. So there are clues that an iPhone, iPod or MacBook exist in the form of billboards, tv commercials and the like. It is highly unlikely that the CEO will come to your home, or go door to door to
make you buy its products. You may call this a violation your personal free will, privacy, and whatever laws you think apply. Instead, Apple sends out advertisements informing you that its product exists and lets you choose for yourself.
In the same way we use the pyramids and accompanying hieroglyphs as evidence that ancient Egyptian civilization existed, God has given us clues of His existence. These clues or advertisements are found in: (i)the complexity of nature itself, (ii)signatures of intelligent design, (iii)the impossibility of our universe existing without divine intervention, (iv)an innate sense within all humans that God exists, (v)miracles and (vi)the revealed word of God through the Bible.
Each of these clues serve as an advertisement that God exists. Jesus is the ultimate form of that advertisement as God in the flesh. The next question you may ask is why would God an all-knowing God use clues and advertisements instead of just showing Himself to each human individually. Two words:
Faith and
Freewill. The bible indicates that God values faith/belief above all else. We are also aware that every human has freewill. If humans truly have freewill, then they have the choice whether to believe in God or not. So if God, forced himself on all mankind, that would violate freewill and it we wouldn’t have to use faith or believe. There is more to it than that, but for the sake of time and space, I will end here.
Sources
1.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/omnipotent
2.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls
3.
http://atheistscholar.org/Atheism/WhatisAtheism.aspx
4.
http://www.prb.org/Publications/Article ... Earth.aspx
5.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_books
6.
http://mashable.com/2010/08/05/number-o ... _cNmNMeEqJ
