Is the Resurrurredction really a historical fact, or not?

[polonius]

In Paul’s oldest and first epistle, written in 51-52 AD, he states without qualification that:

“Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord,* will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.g17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together* with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.� 1 Thes 4:15-17

But it didn’t happen. Thus we must conclude that either Paul or the Lord were incorrect.

How much else of what Paul told us is also incorrect?

Recall, it was Paul who reported the Resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 written about 53-57 AD.

Was his story historically correct (did it actually happen) or is it just a story that was used by and embellished by the writers of the New Testament?

Since the basis of Christian belief is the historical fact of the Resurrection, let’s examine the evidence and see if the Resurrection really happened or can an analysis of the story show that it is improbable if not impossible.

Opinions?

[Claire Evans]

Only by faith could anyone be healed by miracles.

But in any case, someone in a coma doesn't have a "faith". He might have HAD faith, but being unconscious isn't thinking. And as far as I know, we have to be able to THINK in order to have faith.

Therefore she believed and had faith.

The resurrection cemented the faith of those who witnessed it and always those who just witnessed it.

"Only by faith could anyone be healed by miracle."

Did I say only the faith of the one being healed?

If no one had faith, Lazarus would not have been resurrected. The point Jesus was making with His miracles was to show what can be done if one has faith, not to impress anyone.

Can you give me an instance in the Bible where Jesus didn't heal someone with faith?

Please explain...
Again, you keep harping on faith as if it is a good/needed thing, but you continue to fail to address the fact that faith is required in order to believe in false things/religions.

Faith leads to false beliefs, this we know. Therefore, perhaps you should stop pretending that faith is some virtuous thing to have or put in practice.

Sure your holy book harps on the importance of faith. No surprise though right, since we know faith is needed in order to have false beliefs? Guess what is also needed in order to be a Muslim? Yup... faith. I could also use faith to believe in Zeus, Thor or a flat earth.

IMO, you keep pointing to a weakness in not just your religion, but every religion and then you try to glorify said weakness when it is in your religion as if it is some virtue.

Have I not mentioned that there is a faith that God exists even though one doesn't know for sure and faith in God knowing He exists and trusting Him?

So, yes, the former applies to your argument but not the latter.

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 869 by Claire Evans]

There is no other way to know Jesus but through faith.

Then explain the apostles, and the other people who knew Jesus. The people who walked and talked with Jesus, just like you walk and talk with your family/friends/loved ones. Do you say about your family that you only know through faith?

I'm talking about truly understanding Jesus. It is only after Jesus had ascended into heaven that the disciples finally realized what Jesus had come for. They didn't really understand Him when Jesus was on earth.

Please explain to us how you acquired this knowledge?
Thank you.

Please don't ask me to prove this. This is not part of the debate. This is you asking about my experience.

It has taken many years. One of the ways to know the Holy Spirit really exists is to know the existence of the devil. I was introduced to evil spirits at age 12. Praying to banish them demonstrated the power of the Holy Spirit. To me, only knowing the horror of evil can one appreciate God. I have always known God exists. I didn't know the devil always. One has to invite the Holy Spirit in one's life to make His presence known. However, many stop seeking because they didn't like the answer they received from Him. They think it is because He doesn't exist. Yet when one assumes that it is not a refusal, you begin to see a pattern in one's life which can only be appreciated in retrospect. There are no such thing as coincidences in my opinion. It is a deeply personal thing. I am by no means unique.

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 868 by Claire Evans]

It is through suffering that we can become better people.

Are you saying that in order to become better people we should desire MORE suffering ?

No, we should just not ask, "Why me?" when times are hard.

I fine this to be false.
If things are hard, especially due to direct actions by said person, asking 'why me' can be very enlightening.

Imagine a person that loses their driving license after numerous infractions. Said person needs to ask 'why me' in order for them to understand that it was due to their poor driving. If only they would have asked such a question before things got too far out of control.

Don't you agree?
I'm not saying you should always ask 'why me' either.

I meant asking "why me?" in a sense that one is bitter. There have been people who have suffered who have said, "I don't ask, "Why me?". I ask, "Why not me?"

Of course we are going to wonder why certain things happen. However, no one should have self pity.

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 848 by Claire Evans]

The silence is suspicious because, according to the gospels, Jesus was to rise from the dead, which the Jews took much care of avoiding that claim. As we know, there were claims that Jesus rose from the dead, yet no Jewish source refutes it. It could have been recorded that the body was shown to refute the resurrection.

If I make a claim and nobody refutes it.. do you think that my claim is automatically true?



Why would anyone believe a claim JUST BECAUSE it wasn't bothered with?

Silence means NOTHING.... Not for not against.
You can be suspicious all you like.

No, of course not. However, in this case, why wasn't it refuted when, according to the Bible, the Pharisees and Pilate were desperately afraid that Jesus' body would be stolen and a resurrection claim be made?

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 880 by Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 868 by Claire Evans]

It is through suffering that we can become better people.

Are you saying that in order to become better people we should desire MORE suffering ?

No, we should just not ask, "Why me?" when times are hard.

But what about the amputees, Claire?

When asked about it, you answered this:

"God is not a genie. I have clinical depression but I don't expect God to get me off my medication. I am blessed to have them. Likewise, an amputee can have a full life with prosthesis. It is through suffering that we can become better people. Why stop at praying for limbs growing back? If this happened left, right and centre, people who don't have faith would be attracted to Christianity for the wrong reasons. The motive would be to get something out of God rather than a wish to serve God."




Do you believe that Jesus heals anyone?

We are talking about real healing here.. physical ailments. A lot of Christians claim that "Jesus heals".

IF SO.. the question was "Why doesn't Jesus ever EVER EVER heal amputees? .. because according to some Christians, he doesn't seem to have a problem with CANCER victims... are all amputees UNWORTHY?

That was the question.

Do you have an actual answer to it?

Well, why doesn't Jesus make an eyeball grow back if it is missing? When He was earth, they may have happened but I don't know of any claims that that happens now. I just think the thought of a new leg sprouting odd.

What I can imagine is that someone's pain can go away through faith if it is too much to bear.

First Corinthians 10:13

"No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.�

If one has things that cannot be cured, God will give the strength for them to endure it.

[Claire Evans]

Likewise, an amputee can have a full life with prosthesis.

No they can't. It's only recently that full limb prosthetics that actually work (somewhat) have become available. What about the thousands of years before hand?
Also, your comment about a 'full life with prosthesis' ignores other things that we non-amputees take for granted, such as touch. A man who's lost both arms will no longer be able to feel the softness of his wife's hair for example.

You underestimate the the ability of some people to overcome adversity. A lot of people say they are spiritually richer for suffering these kinds of things. There are those in wheelchairs who do wonderful, productive things in their lives.

There is a case where a Nigerian girl whose arms and legs stopped growing and now lives in a plastic bucket. This is what she says:

“I thank God in everything I do,� she said. “I want to start a business. A grocery store and anything people buy, that is what I want.�

This is the courage that God can give to anyone. This is a miracle in itself.

http://nypost.com/2016/07/20/girl-who-l ... ic-bucket/

[Claire Evans]

Clair Evens posted:

I think Revelation is indicative of the writer truly having no clue of what he was writing about.

QUESTION: Do you think it is wise to pay any attention to a writer that truly doesn't know what he is writing about?

That could be divine inspired.

QUESTION: Do you really think that writers who truly do not know what they are writing about are divinely inspired?

There is such a practice called automatic writing. That is when the supernatural guides the hand of the person writing. They are just the medium. I really do believe Revelation is something to be believed because it really is starting to resemble what is happening.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 908 by Claire Evans]

However, in this case, why wasn't it refuted when, according to the Bible, the Pharisees and Pilate were desperately afraid that Jesus' body would be stolen and a resurrection claim be made?

Did anyone from back then really care about the earliest Christians and their claims?
Remember, it is ONLY from the Bible that we hear about Pilate and the Pharisees being so concerned about this group of people and their wandering preacher leader.
In any event, how could Pilate and the others have refuted the disciple's claims? They didn't have the body. The body of Jesus had already been given to Joseph of Arimathea. So if Pilate wanted to say "Jesus didn't rise from the dead, his disciples made the whole thing up", how could he prove it, with no body to show for it?
Remember, the disciples were the LAST people to have possession of the body. And it was the disciples who reported seeing Jesus post-death. And it was the disciples who reported seeing Jesus fly away/disappear.
Your comment sounds to me like a shifting of the burden of proof. Instead of the disciples proving their claims true, you treat the claims as being true because Pilate didn't refute them, didn't prove them false.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 906 by Claire Evans]

.

Mambo No. 5

There is no other way to know Jesus but through faith.

Please explain to us how you acquired this knowledge?
Thank you.

Please don't ask me to prove this. This is not part of the debate. This is you asking about my experience.

If you can't prove it, then any god claim you make is perfectly useless.
Religious people LOVE to tell us about their religious beliefs. However, they are NOT always so keen on explaining why we should believe their beliefs are TRUE.

You said that :

I'm talking about truly understanding Jesus.

And :

There is no other way to know Jesus but through faith.

IF you claim to KNOW something, please, tell us how you know it.
Otherwise, we wont believe that you really know it. And the claim falls FLAT.

I refer you to the forum debate rules. Specifically number 5.

"5. Support your assertions/arguments with evidence. Do not persist in making a claim without supporting it. All unsupported claims can be challenged for supporting evidence. Opinions require no support, but they should not be considered as valid to any argument, nor will they be considered as legitimate support for any claim. "
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6

It has taken many years. One of the ways to know the Holy Spirit really exists is to know the existence of the devil.

Your testimony doesn't help you in here This is a debate forum, not church. Now, not only do you have to prove that the HS exists, but also, the devil. We are cautioned to support our claims with EVIDENCE in here... you will have to do better than tell us your story.

If you have no proof of EITHER... we can't believe you.
And that's pretty much the end for your CLAIMS.

I was introduced to evil spirits at age 12. Praying to banish them demonstrated the power of the Holy Spirit.

That sounds like proof of your belief, but not that your beliefs are TRUE.

To me, only knowing the horror of evil can one appreciate God. I have always known God exists.

You expect us to believe that you have always "know God exists", however, you give us NO reason to think that what you believed in was TRUE in any way. You don't even seem to understand the epistemological problem.

I didn't know the devil always. One has to invite the Holy Spirit in one's life to make His presence known.

That's another unsupported claim. You give us no reason to think that it's true, either. It seems as if you "Just believe" without having any rational reason.

There are no such thing as coincidences in my opinion.

I wonder how you could EVER hope to prove that.
There is no such thing?

Sounds like denial to me.

It is a deeply personal thing. I am by no means unique.

Every one of us is "unique", and I can grant you that your personal religious experience is. You make claims, and you can't prove them true to US... can you prove it to yourself?

Do you ever QUESTION the truth of your beliefs?

[Claire Evans]

Obviously we need the Bible to tell us who Jesus is and what He did

And in order for us to believe what the Bible tells us about who he is and what he did, the Bible cannot be suspect. If you suspect some parts of the Bible to be untrue, how can you be sure the whole story about Jesus and the Holy Spirit aren't untrue as well?

Because the Holy Spirit is not dependent on the Bible. The details don't have to be flawless from start to finish. You are speaking from the stance that someone doesn't know the Holy Spirit and is being skeptical because suspect things are there and they don't know what else to believe. That is actually understandable. Yet it is the Holy Spirit that is the Teacher, not the Bible. Else they are just words. I say know the Holy Spirit first then study the Bible.