Is the Resurrurredction really a historical fact, or not?

[polonius]

In Paul’s oldest and first epistle, written in 51-52 AD, he states without qualification that:

“Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord,* will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.g17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together* with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.� 1 Thes 4:15-17

But it didn’t happen. Thus we must conclude that either Paul or the Lord were incorrect.

How much else of what Paul told us is also incorrect?

Recall, it was Paul who reported the Resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 written about 53-57 AD.

Was his story historically correct (did it actually happen) or is it just a story that was used by and embellished by the writers of the New Testament?

Since the basis of Christian belief is the historical fact of the Resurrection, let’s examine the evidence and see if the Resurrection really happened or can an analysis of the story show that it is improbable if not impossible.

Opinions?

[Claire Evans]

You see, faith does not lead to the Christian god, faith is required to believe in any god concept. This makes fakes faith being hard to come by a good thing IMO. I just disagree with the part that it is hard to come by because I know far to many that are capable of having faith and then applying it to one of the many god concepts.

I do not mean having faith that God exists. I mean having faith in God to lead one in one's life knowing full well He exists. A child has faith in his father. He does not doubt his father's existence.

It matters not where you apply your faith, because faith is needed in order to believe in false things. That is the point. How is a mechanism that leads to false beliefs a good thing?

So you can't differentiate between the context of the two faiths? You seem to think that it is only possible to have faith if you start off not being sure He exists in the first place. In my case it was not brainwashing because I was never forced to believe. A lot of people stay with a religion because they are frightened of the repercussions of leaving it so they just convince themselves that their God exists. You are also assuming that all beliefs are false. I do not see the point of worshiping a god one is not sure exists unless they are obliged to.

What criteria would be needed for you to convince you that it was written by Jesus. Not only that, what would make you believe what He wrote is true? You could think he was a magician, a fraud, an anything but the Son of God.

I don't know why you struggle with this. Don't you think a god could write in a way that is beyond what us mere humans can do? Wouldn't you expect some divine wisdom to be present in it?

Instead of using grand scriptures with magic coating to understand Him, He offers us the Holy Spirit that is the Teacher who gives us wisdom and understanding of God. That is far more valuable than any scripture.

Your Holy Ghost is just an excuse you use to justify for the scriptures not being wise nor divine.
So my question was, "don't you think a god could write in a way that is beyond what us mere humans can do?"
Holy Spirit or not, such a divine and wise being would have wisdom/knowledge far beyond that of the humans of the time when these things were written. Yet this is not demonstrated in the Bible.

There were fallible people who wrote the Bible. You could argue, why did God make a perfect world? As I said, since when does knowledge beyond human understanding at the time automatically would be accredited to Jesus? Or inspired by God? That knowledge could be from the occult which many of the Pharisees practiced.

Instead we have stories about a punishing (Adam and Eve, Noah...) genocidal barbaric (keep the virgin girls for yourself) god that does things that are very human in nature.

That's Yahweh you are talking about, not the Father.

Do you not serve the god of Israel? If not, who is Yahweh when compared to this 'Father'. When I was a Christian, I was taught to pray to my 'Father god', the god of Israel. Thus my confusion.

No, I don't. When you truly research who Yahweh is, you see that he is a physical being, a Canaanite God, the son of El, who was approached by Moses by joining the Midianite tribe and was originally the god of the Kenites. So Yahweh adopted Israel.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... kguide.htm

I bet you that you didn't know this. This is the problem with the Christian church. They don't want to rattle the boat by making Christians disillusioned with the Bible because the OT is mostly one big lie. So many atheists parted with the faith not knowing that not all what Christianity teaches is true. Thus the problems they had in the OT just aren't about the Father. So many atheists use the OT as an excuse to abandon the faith, not realizing that it is not about the Father at all.

Can you point to anything in the Bible that we cannot imagine a human coming up with?
An actual divine book written by Jesus is truly needed, otherwise what is special about the current 66? Nothing that I can see.

Why would that be needed?

Why!? Simple, you believe that there is a god concept behind the scriptures. The scriptures themselves betray you. That is why it is needed.

Does the betrayal of the OT dent my faith in the slightest? Absolutely not. I do not base my faith on the scriptures. You do understand my belief that once one knows the Teacher, whatever is written in the scriptures is not that important. If you are looking for perfection in the scriptures to have any sort of faith, you are wasting your time.

I think Revelation is indicative of the writer truly having no clue of what he was writing about. That could be divine inspired.

Why would you jump to such conclusions? If you were not a Christian with a Christian bias, I don't believe you would read Revelations and jump to said book being divinely inspired. I assume you have read Revelations?

There are many prophetic things in Revelation that indicate the supernatural. I'm going to bring your attention to Revelation 13: 17-18

The Mark of the Beast
…17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark—the name of the beast or the number of its name. 18Here is a call for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and that number is six hundred sixty-six.

Now watch this:



Read this article:


http://www.thesleuthjournal.com/nbc-new ... s-3-years/

Does that Revelation passage seem more plausible now?

Revelation 8:9


"...a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed."


Water covers more than 70 percent of the Earth's surface, with the largest body of water, the Pacific Ocean, taking up more than one-third of the planet's surface.

Tepco, the owners of the stricken Fukushima plants is dumping about 650 tons of radioactive water into the Pacific per day.


"According to two University of Washington scientific research papers that were recently released, a 1,000 mile stretch of the Pacific Ocean has warmed up by several degrees, and nobody seems to know why this is happening. This giant “blob� of warm water was first observed in late 2013, and it is playing havoc with our climate. And since this giant “blob� first showed up, fish and other sea creatures have been dying in absolutely massive numbers. So could there be a connection? And what is going to happen if the Pacific Ocean continues to warm up? Could we potentially be facing the greatest holocaust of sea life in the Pacific that anyone has ever observed? If so, what would that mean for the food chain and for our food supply?...

"Meanwhile, while this has been going on, scientists have also been noticing that sea creatures in the Pacific have been dying in record numbers. In fact, last summer I wrote an article entitled “Why are massive numbers of sea creatures dying along the west coast right now?� Since then, things have continued to get even worse. For instance, it was recently reported that the number of sea lions washing up on Southern California beaches is at an all-time record high…

"A record 2,250 sea lions, mostly pups, have washed up starving and stranded on Southern California beaches so far this year, a worsening phenomenon blamed on warming seas in the region that have disrupted the marine mammals’ food supply. "The latest tally, reported on Monday by the National Marine Fisheries Service, is 20 times the level of strandings averaged for the same three-month period over the past decade and twice the number documented in 2013, the previous worst winter season recorded for Southern California sea lions. "And of course fish are being deeply affected as well. Sardines have declined to their lowest level in six decades, and National Geographic says that a whole host of tiny fish species at the bottom of the food chain are dying off rapidly."

http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd696.htm

So there are signs.

[Justin108]

Yet it is the Holy Spirit that is the Teacher, not the Bible.

If this were true, there would be Christians who know about Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit without ever having read or heard anything about either of these.

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 893 by Claire Evans]



Truth claims are easy to make, harder to prove TRUE.

Obviously we need the Bible to tell us who Jesus is and what He did. However, knowing that and truly knowing Him can be completely different things.

And many Christians have NEVER once read the Bible. Over a thousand YEARS of Christianity went by before anyone thought of translating the Bible into the vernacular.

People just had to accept religious AUTHORITY.... or else.

BUT that wasn't your point.

I'm assuming they knew it orally as in oral tradition. Today, well, we have access to the written gospels.

You said that knowing the STORIES about Jesus isn't the same as "truly knowing Him".... what do you mean by "TRULY KNOWING"?

To be more specific, what "truth" are you claiming to know?

John 14:25:

25All this I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.


How could the disciples be taught by the Holy Spirit? By obviously accepting Him in their lives to establish a relationship. That can actually be done today. What's truths have I learnt about Him? He has conquered all evil. I would not know this if I didn't know evil and the power of it. To pray when confronted with evil and for evil spirits to flee because of that is testimony of God's power. You also know by looking back on your life at how you prayed for guidance and how events dovetailed for one's own good. Once you learn to listen to God's voice, then the truth is irrefutable.

Please note that this is not factual so please don't ask me to prove it.

[Claire Evans]

Yet it is the Holy Spirit that is the Teacher, not the Bible.

If this were true, there would be Christians who know about Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit without ever having read or heard anything about either of these.

In the Bible, Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to the disciples. Obviously, they needed to know about Jesus. The Bible is how we get introduced to the faith, not the means to have a relationship with Him.

[Justin108]

In the Bible, Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to the disciples.

We established that what the Bible says is suspect back in post 874. We can't trust what the Bible says. So why do you trust the Bible when it says the Holy Spirit guides disciples?

[Justin108]

There is such a practice called automatic writing. That is when the supernatural guides the hand of the person writing.

Oh there is? Can you prove it?

I really do believe Revelation is something to be believed because it really is starting to resemble what is happening.

Like what?

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 900 by Claire Evans]


Hi, Claire,


I put ten questions at the bottom of the post.
If you want, you can just skip to those.

I never understood the requirement of belief for doing what is right. Healing people if you can is a great RESPONSIBILITY.. to NOT heal when we can is morally WRONG in my opinion. Mathew 8:5-13 almost seems to imply that Jesus would NOT have healed the servant if the owner ( I believe the man was a slave owner? ) would not have believed in the right god. Is that correct?

That centurion would not have approached Jesus for healing if he hadn't got faith. If He didn't believe Jesus could heal, he wouldn't have bothered.

I guess that's right. I don't bother with any faith healer either. I just go to a doctor.
So, are you saying that people who go to faith healers have to have faith in order to bother going to faith healers? And... I suppose you are saying that Jesus was a REAL DEAL faith healer, and not just some charlatan about whom people wrote wild stories of his grand healings?

So, I just want to check if I understand you correctly, Claire...
Are you saying that FAITH is only required so that people will BOTHER going to a faith healer?



Is faith just the MOTIVATION that it takes to GO seek a faith healer?
Because, I could go seek a faith healer... out of curiosity, or for a study.... why is FAITH required?

You say that we need to BELIEVE in God in order to be healed by god. Doctors just do it to help people.

I think things are different today like I have discussed.

THINGS ARE DIFFERENT TODAY.

Oh... what are you saying here... that people AREN'T being "healed" by faith anymore? Could you clarify, please?

"Believe this or you wont get healed"
Do you understand the moral dilemma faith healing entails?

Jesus had to demonstrate that any power He has in from the Lord.

Had to demonstrate?. why did he have to?
Wasn't just FAITH needed?

So... are you saying that back then, FAITH wasn't needed.. but a demonstration was needed.

I'd LOVE to have a demonstration, but... NOW.. since you say that TIMES HAVE CHANGED... I would have to have just FAITH... is that what you mean?


It took DEMONSTRATIONS THEN.... and now it takes FAITH?

The disciples received power from God to heal to demonstrate what faith could do but they had a special purpose and that was to establish the faith.

So, back then, people needed to be DEMONSTRATED that God had magical powers to heal. I see.

But didn't you say that it takes FAITH to be healed by God?

As I said, Jesus heals in other ways today and that is also using modern medicine. I hope this changes the perception you have.

I don't have much of a "perception" of Jesus other than he is a book character. But you are saying that:


JESUS uses modern medicine?

Are you saying that Jesus doesn't heal by FAITH, but is a DOCTOR?

For me, if there was an absence of the Holy Spirit, then the resurrection could not have happened.

Well, we are all entitled to our beliefs, Claire. I can't debate what you believe.
BUT....

I can ask you for evidence.

How have you established that if there was an absence of the Holy Spirit, then the resurrection could not have happened?

Why should we believe these miraculous tales?

Christianity espouses that it is only through the conquering of sin that Jesus rose from the dead.

Could you explain how ESPOUSING something makes it true?

How could the Holy Spirit have any influence on if Jesus had been defeated?

I can assure you that I have NO CLUE, Claire. I'm an atheist. I don't even know what the Holy Spirit is supposed to BE.

The only reasonable answer I can give you for the question is:

YOU TELL ME.

Absolutely. Without knowing the Holy Spirit, it is impossible to know for sure that Jesus did those miracles. Then it could just be made up stories. I cannot take anything I read at face value.

How is this "Holy Spirit" a way to know?

I don't believe in any "resurrection" because I don't see how anyone can prove those Bible stories are really true.

It cannot be. It has to be personally proven to a person to know if it is true.

"PERSONALLY PROVEN"

Could you explain that a bit?

Just to be clear as to your position, I would like to ask you three questions concerning resurrection:

1. Do you believe that Lazarus actually came back from the dead?

Yes, but I can't tell you that it definitely happened. I can't know for sure.

Oh boy... that is confusing to me.

You BELIEVE but you don't know for sure.
To me, that's a complete contradiction.

If you don't know for sure.... HOW do you believe?

3. If so... how do you know these stories are true?

Only through the Holy Spirit do I know Jesus did rise from the dead.

Ok, that seems to be your most important point.

I'd like to understand what that means... I propose that I start a new thread about that.... How do we know something to be true by the "Holy Spirit".

Would you be interested?

The irony is that what also cements my faith is the reaction to Satan to Jesus.

Your belief reinforces your faith.
Yes, that makes sense.

The lack of the Holy Spirit would mean he could do whatever he wanted.

Interesting claim.
I suppose then that you must think that anyone who doesn't do whatever he wants "HAS" the Holy Spirit?

I don't do everything that I like.. and I'm an atheist. Do I "have" the Holy Spirit?

There would be no stopping evil in all aspects of life. There is definitely an war being waged against God. There are so many indications that the powers that be are expecting the Anti-Christ.

Ohhhhh I don't doubt that people believe ALL kinds of strange stuff, Claire.

I'm WAY more interested in HOW they formed those beliefs and not really what they happen to BE.

I find your ideas fascinating.
I hope you find your way into the thread about the Holy Spirit.

Now.. I realize that I ask a whole LOT of questions.. and I find it a bit frustrating because most people don't seem to answer each and every one. I don't blame them... but, maybe it's because they are scattered here and there all over my posts.

So, I just thought of a trial solution to that.... Restating the questions at the very bottom... So here goes.. these are questions that I have asked in this post. It would help me understand your position if you could answer some of them.
But those faith healers aren't Jesus! I'd say there are a lot of gullible people who go to faith healers that turn out to be charlatans.

These are repeats:

1. Are you saying that faith just the MOTIVATION that it takes to GO seek a faith healer?

If those people had faith, why do they believe they need a faith healer? Surely Jesus is the only who intercedes? It appears as if those who seek faith healers have more faith in the faith healer than Jesus. I'd also say there is a lot of gullibility involved. The power of suggestion needs to be taken into account and a "faith healer" just being fraudulent.

2. Are you saying that people AREN'T being "healed" by faith anymore?

There are many claims as such. A stand-in priest claimed to have been healed because he had great pain in his neck and he claimed it went away. I believe Jesus can take away pain if it becomes too much to bear. The actual problem with the priest's neck didn't go away. The pain just went away. There are some things in my life that I couldn't bear anymore and then it was taken away. This is what I believe healing is.

3. Are you saying that back then, in Gospel days, FAITH wasn't needed.. but a demonstration was needed? It took DEMONSTRATIONS THEN.... and now it takes FAITH?

Not always. Let us take the case of the centurion in Luke 7:1-3

After he had finished all his sayings in the hearing of the people, he entered Capernaum. 2 Now a centurion had a servant[a] who was sick and at the point of death, who was highly valued by him. 3 When the centurion heard about Jesus, he sent to him elders of the Jews, asking him to come and heal his servant.

Let us look at the blind man in John 9:

1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.

2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

6 When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,

7 And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.

The blind man didn't say, "No one can heal me. I have been blind all my life, why would you, Jesus, change that?" No, instead, he obeyed Jesus and had faith.

4. You said that JESUS uses modern medicine. Are you saying that Jesus doesn't heal by FAITH, but that modern medicine is actually GOD MAGIC ? Ok.. I can't really make heads or tales of this... so could you just clarify what you meant?

I'm not going to disregard people who claim to have been healed by faith, but I believe Jesus uses people to invent medication, etc. I say anything good comes from Him, so why not in this instance? I believe God can help suffering people by using those who care to help them. We are meant to be His mediums.

5. How have you established that if there was an absence of the Holy Spirit, then the resurrection could not have happened?

Because the devil would have conquered mankind and our souls. What reins in evil? Why does good still exist? If we believe all good comes from the Holy Spirit, then surely it would have died with Jesus in the grave? It is only the Holy Spirit that impedes Satan. Nothing else frightens him.

6. Why should we believe these "miraculous" tales?

That belief of miracles comes naturally after knowing the Holy Spirit. I do not have to examine each claim and say, "This didn't happen or this did."

7. You said that "Christianity espouses that it is only through the conquering of sin that Jesus rose from the dead. " Could you explain how ESPOUSING something makes it true?

No, espousal proves nothing. However, if I say, "This and this is the truth", then I get chastised for preaching.

8. You stated that you believe that Lazarus came back from the dead, but that you can't be sure it really happened. If you don't know for sure.... HOW and WHY do you believe?

Because the rising of the dead is what I believe Jesus can do. He is one with the Father and the Father rose Jesus from the dead. There are other stories in the NT that I don't believe are actually true but are symbolic like the wilderness story.

9. How do we know something to be true by the "Holy Spirit".

By establishing a relationship with Him.

10. I don't do everything that I like.. and I'm an atheist. Do I "have" the Holy Spirit?

Cheers, Claire.

I'm not saying you aren't influenced by good things which are from the Holy Spirit but the Holy Spirit cannot dwell in you because you haven't invited Him in. How can one invite Him in? By abandoning one's will for one's own life. Be prepared to take on the cross which takes suffering. Be prepared to kill the ego and all things that promote oneself. To actually get to that stage, one needs to be humiliated to realize one is nothing without God. Jesus was humiliated.

How many people are prepared to do that?

I will go to your post about the Holy Spirit but remember it cannot be classified as a debate.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 917 by Claire Evans]

.

Critical thinking skills are CRITICAL for thinking well....

Truth claims are easy to make, harder to prove TRUE.

Obviously we need the Bible to tell us who Jesus is and what He did. However, knowing that and truly knowing Him can be completely different things.

And many Christians have NEVER once read the Bible. Over a thousand YEARS of Christianity went by before anyone thought of translating the Bible into the vernacular.

People just had to accept religious AUTHORITY.... or else.

BUT that wasn't your point.

I'm assuming they knew it orally as in oral tradition. Today, well, we have access to the written gospels.

I'm assuming that when I write "many Christians" I don't mean just many Christians in the PAST, Claire. I was giving an example of how religious people believing what they are told to believe.

Many Christians STILL have not read the Bible.

It's really shocking but this is very common even in North America. Of course, it may be true that many fundamentalists do. But still, even if they DO read the Bible and learn a lot of if by heart, it still doesn't mean that anything IN the Bible is true.

So, why believe what the Bible says?

You said that knowing the STORIES about Jesus isn't the same as "truly knowing Him".... what do you mean by "TRULY KNOWING"?

To be more specific, what "truth" are you claiming to know?

John 14:25:

25All this I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.

Great.
Now all you have to do is prove it's true.
Have you EVER wondered if what you believe in is TRUE, Claire?

How could the disciples be taught by the Holy Spirit? By obviously accepting Him in their lives to establish a relationship.

It's not obvious to me, Claire. sorry.
Could you explain how accepting something leads to knowledge?
You COULD be accepting something false.

That can actually be done today. What's truths have I learnt about Him? He has conquered all evil.

He HAS conquered all evil?

What does that mean?.. There is no evil left in the world?... But forget that... I suppose you know what you mean. I want to know how you KNOW that statement is true, and not just some nice sounding phrase out of the Bible.

It's not a truth if you can't prove that it is. What you are REALLY saying, as far as I can tell is that the truth here is your BELIEF that, for example, "he has conquered evil".

It may be TRUE that you believe what you profess all the time, but are your beliefs TRUE?

It's most probably true that you have a bunch of religious beliefs. You don't seem to be able to demonstrate that your religious beliefs are true, OR that you have a sound method to KNOW if they are true. You simply accept it as true.

Acceptance isn't proof.

You don't seem to understand the difference between a FACT and a BELIEF, but they aren't the same things. Unfortunately, thinking about thinking isn't so easy at first. And you are confused about your thinking. That's why studying a bit of epistemology is so very VITAL when it comes to knowing if our beliefs are true or not.

You CLAIM to know something about HS.
You might BELIEVE you know something about HS.

But you just seem to be repeating what you understand the Bible says.
That's not understanding, Claire, that's memory.

You have been well trained. You can quote the Bible at will, and that's an impressive bit of memory work. HOWEVER, there is more to thinking than just memory.

I'm looking for your REASONING, Claire, and not your ability to quote the Bible.

I would not know this if I didn't know evil and the power of it.

I know what the word "evil" means, and I don't "KNOW" anything about any HS or any god. So, if that's your method, it doesn't work for everyone.

To pray when confronted with evil and for evil spirits to flee because of that is testimony of God's power.

To TESTIFY is to simply profess your belief. You do that a LOT.
But what you don't do is to explain how you know any of these beliefs are TRUE.

So many people seem to believe things that they don't know how to prove is true.
And that means.. they might believe in falsehoods.

And they don't seem to care. They "double down" instead of worrying about THAT.
They use insistence instead of investigation.

And in these debates, they do it for ALL of us to see.

You also know by looking back on your life at how you prayed for guidance and how events dovetailed for one's own good. Once you learn to listen to God's voice, then the truth is irrefutable.

I look back on my life and how I prayed for guidance and believed in God and so forth, and now I've come to the conclusion that I was "hearing" ME and my imagination. Very powerful stuff, the imagination.

It can and does lead us all to ERROR.
We have to go beyond just using our imagination... that's where critical thinking comes into the picture. When a person is ready to improve their thinking.. a few lessons is critical thinking is the way to go.

Try it... you should profit from the experience.

http://www.skillsyouneed.com/learn/crit ... nking.html

I'm asking you how you KNOW that you are "listening to God's voice" instead of your imagination which we all know you have. How do you know your God beliefs are true?

Saying that something is "irrefutable" isn't prove that it IS irrefutable.
You are just proclaiming again.

Please note that this is not factual so please don't ask me to prove it.

NOT FACTUAL?

If it's not factual, it can't be TRUE, Claire.

If you wont prove your claims, you are not abiding by the rules of the forum or of an honest debate.

You make a LOT of claims, Claire.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 921 by Claire Evans]

but the Holy Spirit cannot dwell in you because you haven't invited Him in.

I'm pretty sure I've told you in the past, CE, that I asked for just that. Well, to be more precise, I prayed to God to do with me as he would, to use me as his agent (maybe not using the word agent, but I hope I get the general gist across).

Your claims here are immediately proven false by the fact that I am here talking to you as an ex Christian.

How can one invite Him in?

Oh so you have a method, something that works? Go on...

By abandoning one's will for one's own life.

As noted above, I did just that. Nothing happened. This can also be interpreted as being willing to commit suicide. I attempted that once, nothing supernatural happened (unlike stories I hear from Christians, including one from a poster here on the site who says something supernatural happened to him when he attempted suicide).

Be prepared to take on the cross which takes suffering.

A literal cross, or just be prepared to suffer? Humans do that every day. If I go for long walks or hikes, I'm prepared for the pain that will result.

. Be prepared to kill the ego and all things that promote oneself.

Again, reread the first line from me in this comment.

To actually get to that stage, one needs to be humiliated to realize one is nothing without God. Jesus was humiliated.

I've been humiliated in the past, quite a few times. No Holy Spirit though. I remember as a young child, being mocked by others in my home town for believing.

How many people are prepared to do that?

Me. Tried it, no result.
Your method here doesn't work.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 921 by Claire Evans]

If those people had faith, why do they believe they need a faith healer?

How should I know?

We would have to ask them. There are THOUSANDS of them.
However, I could imagine that they have FAITH in God and also FAITH in the faith healer.

They use FAITH... and get bilked out of their time, energy and money.
Faith healing is one of the ways that faith makes people GULLIBLE.

We know that for a FACT.

Surely Jesus is the only who intercedes?

Yep, most faith healers know the drill.. THEY don't heal anyone... JESUS heals.
They exploit what Christians believe.. that's how the scam WORKS.

But there isn't anything SURE about Jesus.
The only thing SURE is that a lot of people sure do seem to believe.

It appears as if those who seek faith healers have more faith in the faith healer than Jesus. I'd also say there is a lot of gullibility involved. The power of suggestion needs to be taken into account and a "faith healer" just being fraudulent.

Yep.
We agree for once.

We know for a FACT that faith healing is a scam.

People DO use faith to know things are true. AND a whole lot of them get BILKED out of their cash. And some of them forgo ACTUAL medical treatment because of the faith that they have. Faith can be and has been proven to be DANGEROUS to people and to entire societies.

That's ALSO a fact.

2. Are you saying that people AREN'T being "healed" by faith anymore?

There are many claims as such. A stand-in priest claimed to have been healed because he had great pain in his neck and he claimed it went away. I believe Jesus can take away pain if it becomes too much to bear. The actual problem with the priest's neck didn't go away. The pain just went away. There are some things in my life that I couldn't bear anymore and then it was taken away. This is what I believe healing is.

I had a pain in my chest. It was "taken away" by surgery. I would have died without science. That's what I believe real healing is.

The rest is... some pains just go away. I don't need to be healed for that.
EVER.

Some serious conditions JUST GO AWAY.. and no prayer is needed for that. Even CANCERS go into spontaneous remission, God belief or NOT. Pray all you like... we have no proof that it's going to change anything. But if prayer makes you HAPPY.. we DO know that happiness helps.

So, BE HAPPY... if prayer makes you happy, DO IT.
But... to believe that what you pray to is REAL..... that's a stretch.

I think of the THOUSANDS of kids writing letters to Santa. I think that's a good thing. It makes them HAPPY.

But is Santa real?

Nah....

Prayer is like a letter to Santa... makes people REAL happy.
I say "good for them"... but is God real?

Nah...

I don't know how people can manage believing in something that they don't know is TRUE. BUT they sure do... it's a mental juggling act that some call "resolving cognitive dissonance".

Some use critical thinking to get out of the unpleasant feelings of being wrong, and some just dig themselves deeper and FORGET that they haven't resolved anything. Donal Trump seems to be the poster child for self-delusion. He might ACTUALLY believe his own lies.

3. Are you saying that back then, in Gospel days, FAITH wasn't needed.. but a demonstration was needed? It took DEMONSTRATIONS THEN.... and now it takes FAITH?

Not always. Let us take the case of the centurion in Luke 7:1-3

After he had finished all his sayings in the hearing of the people, he entered Capernaum. 2 Now a centurion had a servant[a] who was sick and at the point of death, who was highly valued by him. 3 When the centurion heard about Jesus, he sent to him elders of the Jews, asking him to come and heal his servant.

So, Jesus thought they needed a demonstration of the "power" of faith. And then, Jesus did some god magic. Not today? No demonstration needed? Just a book, I suppose, is needed today. It seems to me that today, people are WAY more gullible than they were back then.

You say that Jesus needed to PROVE that he wasn't just blowing hot air.. but today.. he doesn't need to prove it. What he NEEDS is a huge propaganda machine.. and he has that. And apparently, nothing needs ever be PROVED again.

We all have to take it on FAITH now... or burn in hell.

4. You said that JESUS uses modern medicine. Are you saying that Jesus doesn't heal by FAITH, but that modern medicine is actually GOD MAGIC ? Ok.. I can't really make heads or tales of this... so could you just clarify what you meant?

I'm not going to disregard people who claim to have been healed by faith, but I believe Jesus uses people to invent medication, etc.

I am not DISREGARDING anyone at all. I might want to DISREGARD their unverified claims, though. If I ask for evidence, and they give me the run around.. I ignore the claims. You make a lot of claims, Claire.. a whole LOT of claims.

I ask for evidence.. if you don't give me any.. I ignore the claims.

You can believe anything that you like. HOWEVER, your belief isn't proof. It's JUST A BELIEF. You will have to do more than simply telling us over and over what you believe. I'm beginning to think you don't understand the question.

Here it is again:

HOW do you know what you believe is true?

So far, it's as if that question is MEANINGLESS to you... or transparent. We GET that you are a Bible believer.. a CHRISTIAN.... we know that already. We don't need to be told EACH AND EVERY THING that you believe in order to get it. You don't HAVE to transcribe the entire Bible in the forum. WE GET IT.

Try to focus instead on our ACTUAL QUESTIONS.

How do you know what any of your beliefs are TRUE?
Is one such question.

If you can't answer that then we have to IGNORE your beliefs as unjustified. There are MILLIONS of unjustified beliefs. We don't have to believe them ALL. Your beliefs are precious to YOU... but not to everyone, Claire. To outsiders of your faith, your beliefs are JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE'S. Your beliefs are not special at all to US. But we understand that your beliefs are special TO YOU... and that's why I find it AMAZING that you really don't seem to even UNDERSTAND the question :

How do you know your beliefs are TRUE?

I say anything good comes from Him, so why not in this instance?

You can SAY anything that you like.. but saying something isn't giving EVIDENCE for it.

Asking "why not?" is one of the WORST possible answers.

Imagine a court case... a murder trial.. something IMPORTANT as your belief in God.. and the prosecution demands "WHY did you murder that child?"... and you would answer... "Why NOT?"

Do you IMAGINE "why not" is a good justification?

Why not... be a Muslim or a Hindu or a Jew or any other of the 30,000 denominations of Christianity you reject as FALSE Christians? Why do you take JUST THE BELIEF that you happen to have as TRUE, and all the others FALSE?

I really do think you can't understand the question. If you quote the Bible as an answer, it's proof that you don't. We don't NEED a quote from the Bible that you believe is true. We are asking you REPEATEDLY to prove your beliefs TRUE.

I believe God can help suffering people by using those who care to help them. We are meant to be His mediums.

SURE YOU DO... you believe that and it probably makes you HAPPY. And if that's the case, I am really HAPPY that your belief makes you happy.

Now... next time, I hope you bother to explain how what you believe is TRUE.

5. How have you established that if there was an absence of the Holy Spirit, then the resurrection could not have happened?

Because the devil would have conquered mankind and our souls. What reins in evil? Why does good still exist? If we believe all good comes from the Holy Spirit, then surely it would have died with Jesus in the grave? It is only the Holy Spirit that impedes Satan. Nothing else frightens him.

WOW... you have very interesting beliefs. They must be very special to you.

So, you justify your beliefs by even MORE unjustified beliefs. You are just digging yourself deeper and deeper into the very same epistemic hole.

It's too bad that you can't prove any of your beliefs are actually true.
Doesn't that concern you at all?

6. Why should we believe these "miraculous" tales?

That belief of miracles comes naturally after knowing the Holy Spirit. I do not have to examine each claim and say, "This didn't happen or this did."

You don't bother examining claims? You just accept them if you think they fit with what you already believe?...

Claire, I'm sorry, but you sometimes demonstrate very bad thinking.

PLEASE consider taking a look at critical thinking.
You seem to need those skills desperately.
You are using what is known as "confirmation bias" and that's not good thinking at all:

It's on the list here of fallacious reasoning. This page is well worth the reading:

http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/

And you might be interested to know a little about critical thinking in general.. since it's the epistemic method that I am promoting:

http://www.skillsyouneed.com/learn/crit ... nking.html

And you seem to be EASILY persuaded to believe something, and the English word for that is :

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... h/gullible

7. You said that "Christianity espouses that it is only through the conquering of sin that Jesus rose from the dead. " Could you explain how ESPOUSING something makes it true?

No, espousal proves nothing. However, if I say, "This and this is the truth", then I get chastised for preaching.

Because it IS preaching and NOT debating. In this debate forum, you have to do MORE than simply saying "This and this is the truth". You have to DEMONSTRATE to the skeptic that what you believe in is true.

This is a debate forum.... we are expected to DEMONSTRATE that our claims are true in here, if challenged.

I am CHALLENGING YOU.

How do you know that your beliefs are true? If you believe that the HS guarantees the truth of your religious beliefs, for example, how do you know that the HS is a true belief? IF you believe that the proof of the HS ( and I have to guess now ) is the Bible, then please explain to us how you know the Bible is true?

The Bible is full of stories.. how do you know they are TRUE stories?

You are being CHALLENGED to justify your beliefs. It's time to stop PROFESSING your beliefs, and begin to think about your REASONS ...We now have TONS of evidence that you really believe this stuff. OK.. let's go BEYOND that stage, shall we?

8. You stated that you believe that Lazarus came back from the dead, but that you can't be sure it really happened. If you don't know for sure.... HOW and WHY do you believe?

Because the rising of the dead is what I believe Jesus can do.

You believe something because you believe something ELSE?

Then now, you have to prove BOTH are true. Don't you realize that you have made your task TWICE AS HARD?

You have to prove that the story in Lazarus is true AND you have to prove that Jesus can actually rise people from the dead. You have 2 unjustified beliefs instead of ONE to prove. How are you going to justify Jesus being able to rise people from the dead?

Are you going to base that on ANOTHER unjustified belief?

How deep is this epistemic HOLE ?
When are you going to ACTUALLY get to the bottom of this? How do you know that your beliefs are true.. do you HAVE an answer to that? Or do you NOT bother if your beliefs are true? So many people really DON'T, you know.
All too many people are THRILLED to have beliefs, and NEVER bother to think about if those beliefs are true. Some people prefer holding on to a belief rather than having TRUE BELIEFS. You have beliefs, Claire, that much is pretty evident. But what is NOT evident that your beliefs are true at all.

And you don't seem to understand the problem.

Every time that you tell us WHAT you believe instead of telling us how you know what you believe is true is yet MORE evidence that you don't understand the question.

How can I help you understand the question?

He is one with the Father and the Father rose Jesus from the dead. There are other stories in the NT that I don't believe are actually true but are symbolic like the wilderness story.

Again, you offer us WHAT you believe but not at all WHY.
Do you begin to see the problem with your kind of answer?

Telling us WHAT you believe isn't explain HOW you know your belief is true.

9. How do we know something to be true by the "Holy Spirit".

By establishing a relationship with Him.

Have you ever had a relationship with someone who was DUPING you?
I suppose that it could happen. Did it ever happen to YOU?

Maybe everyone you have met has always been perfectly truthful. How lucky if that's true. Most of us have been lied to.... and we NEVER knew it until it was too late. A lot of people get DUPED, Claire. Are you sure you aren't being duped by well meaning or not so well meaning folk?

Some of us had false beliefs, only to find out LATER that we were wrong about them. Claire, have you ever even once been WRONG about some belief? Some of us suffer from delusions, and BELIEVE that what we are thinking is true, even though, it's just not. That's sad. How do you know this so called relationship isn't just a relationship with an idea in your head, and NOT something that is actually real?

How do you know that EVEN IF the HS is really real, that it's not LYING to you or is not DELUSIONAL, or evil, or dangerous for you, or anything ELSE?

When I was a kid.. I didn't have many friends, so I invented an IMAGINARY FRIEND.. and "played" with him. I had a relationship.. but that "David" was NEVER REAL. Have you heard of imaginary friends?

How can you know that HS isn't one of THOSE?

You seem to tell us that you TRUST this "voice" in your head.
A lot of people trust voices in their heads. Not all of them should be BELIEVED, and some of them are in real trouble. If you go to a doctor and tell him that you hear voices in your head... do you imagine the doctor will be HAPPY for you?

Or will he want to give you tests?

I don't want to be rude... but I really cannot tell if you need tests or not. I won't be able to do that. But you MIGHT. How could I know?

Certainly NOT by what you write in here.
Do you see the problem?

I'm not saying that you are crazy... it's just that what you write SOUNDS crazy to me. Voices in your head.... doesn't sound GOOD to me. You believe that they are REAL... and can't seem to prove that they are.. isn't that a bit of a PROBLEM for you?

I know it would be for me.. I'd go see a doctor if I had persistent voices in my head telling me what to do and think.

10. I don't do everything that I like.. and I'm an atheist. Do I "have" the Holy Spirit?

I'm not saying you aren't influenced by good things which are from the Holy Spirit but the Holy Spirit cannot dwell in you because you haven't invited Him in.

So, now you claim that anything good I do is proof of the HS?

And ... that you claim the HS can't come in if I don't invite him?
Well, I invite him all the time. MY DOOR is always open at all times, 24/7

It always has been. It is right now.
HS doesn't seem to care about my open invitation... so INVITATION isn't good enough, Claire.

Have you ever had a conversation with an atheist before, Claire?
Are you listening?

Why SHOULD I let him in... what's my MOTIVATION?

How can one invite Him in? By abandoning one's will for one's own life.

That sounds HORRIBLE.

My MOTIVATION is that I have to be ready to abandon my LIFE? Well if you put it that way.. I don't WANT him in anymore. I am MORE motivated to KEEP my life, thank you. HS can stand outside the door.. until he goes AWAY.

Invitation REVOKED. I only allow NICE people to come into my house.
You make the HS sound EVIL.

Be prepared to take on the cross which takes suffering. Be prepared to kill the ego and all things that promote oneself. To actually get to that stage, one needs to be humiliated to realize one is nothing without God. Jesus was humiliated.

How many people are prepared to do that?

Masochists for Jesus? Who knows? You seem to imply that there are LOTS of you willing to be humiliated for Jesus. I think that's sad, by the way. Very, very sad.

In any case, I am not buying THAT today.
I don't really feel the NEED to be humiliated, thank you.

I also suffer ENOUGH thank you very much. YOU suffer and be humiliated all you like for Jesus.. I'll take a pass. I'd like to be as happy as possible during the short time I have left to live. I don't want to suffer or feel humiliation MORE than I already do.

If you were selling something that RELIEVED pain and suffering.. but nah.. we already HAVE medical science.

You are free to suffer all you like. If it makes you happy, do it.
Suffering doesn't make ME happy. But then, I didn't like Fifty Shades of Grey, either.

I will go to your post about the Holy Spirit but remember it cannot be classified as a debate.

I'm ONLY interested in a debate in a debate forum, thank you.
If you want to preach, I suggest the Holy Huddle... or a church.

I'm not at all interested in preaching.