If you didn't want to believe in Christianity...

[Justin108]

If you didn't want to believe in Christianity, would you stop believing? Suppose you didn't like Christianity at all. Suppose you didn't like the idea of Jesus dying for your sins, an afterlife, etc. would your belief in Christianity stop?

If not, what is it about Christianity that makes any alternative so absolutely unbelievable?

[OnceConvinced]

But if you compiled a book of 700,000 words, with nearly 230,000 words of it as prophesy, and just by chance got it all right... That is pretty much statistically impossible...

If I were to compile such a book I could easily alter things here and there, retrofit to my hearts content and make it look as though prophecies were fulfilled.

There appears to be retrofitting in the bible. eg, when an event is foreshadowed, eg when Judas is referred to as "the man who would later betray Jesus".

So, are you saying they made up the story of Judas betrayal?

I'm saying it's possible. It's also possible the story was manipulated in some way. One source I have come across suggests that it might have been planned by both Jesus and Judas. Who knows for sure?

What I can say for sure is that whoever wrote these events added in comments about things that had not eventuated yet. If a writer can edit a story in that way, what else can be edited?

Do you accept anything about the Gospels as historical

I'm inclined to believe Jesus really existed. I also believe the places existed and these stories took place during real periods of time. However I cannot say anything for sure. It could be that the stories about Jesus were exaggerated or made up and that they were written to take place within that time in that place. They may have been real people but the stories about them may be fabricated. The stories may have been altered to make them more dramatic or to line up with prophecies.

I can't know any of this for sure, but the possibilities are most definitely there.

Like for instant the birth place of Jesus? Or the death of Jesus? The trial of Jesus? The date of the baptisms? Date of the death? Even things about Jesus that are generally considered historical fit the role of the Messiah.. So what says you?

Some of it may be true. Some of it may be made up or exaggerated. I don't see any way of knowing for sure. But I do know how easy it is to edit stories and change events. I do it all the time with my own books. I have made major edits to my series of novels over the year, doing a lot of retrofitting so that I can incorporate new ideas into my current stories.

Did they lie about some of it? Or completely make up a fictional Jesus?

It may be that these things are true. I do not know for sure. Those who want to say these stories are true, including the magic, then it's up to them to provide evidence that they are true.

I must say it would be wonderful if Jesus really did exist and he really was who he claimed to be. I would be very happy indeed about that.

And do you have evidence of that?

I do not say anything for certain. Until it can be shown those things are not the case, I shall continue to consider them as very real possibilities.

[MadeNew]

But if you compiled a book of 700,000 words, with nearly 230,000 words of it as prophesy, and just by chance got it all right... That is pretty much statistically impossible...

If I were to compile such a book I could easily alter things here and there, retrofit to my hearts content and make it look as though prophecies were fulfilled.

There appears to be retrofitting in the bible. eg, when an event is foreshadowed, eg when Judas is referred to as "the man who would later betray Jesus".

So, are you saying they made up the story of Judas betrayal?

I'm saying it's possible. It's also possible the story was manipulated in some way. One source I have come across suggests that it might have been planned by both Jesus and Judas. Who knows for sure?

What I can say for sure is that whoever wrote these events added in comments about things that had not eventuated yet. If a writer can edit a story in that way, what else can be edited?

Do you accept anything about the Gospels as historical

I'm inclined to believe Jesus really existed. I also believe the places existed and these stories took place during real periods of time. However I cannot say anything for sure. It could be that the stories about Jesus were exaggerated or made up and that they were written to take place within that time in that place. They may have been real people but the stories about them may be fabricated. The stories may have been altered to make them more dramatic or to line up with prophecies.

I can't know any of this for sure, but the possibilities are most definitely there.

Like for instant the birth place of Jesus? Or the death of Jesus? The trial of Jesus? The date of the baptisms? Date of the death? Even things about Jesus that are generally considered historical fit the role of the Messiah.. So what says you?

Some of it may be true. Some of it may be made up or exaggerated. I don't see any way of knowing for sure. But I do know how easy it is to edit stories and change events. I do it all the time with my own books. I have made major edits to my series of novels over the year, doing a lot of retrofitting so that I can incorporate new ideas into my current stories.

Did they lie about some of it? Or completely make up a fictional Jesus?

It may be that these things are true. I do not know for sure. Those who want to say these stories are true, including the magic, then it's up to them to provide evidence that they are true.

I must say it would be wonderful if Jesus really did exist and he really was who he claimed to be. I would be very happy indeed about that.

And do you have evidence of that?

I do not say anything for certain. Until it can be shown those things are not the case, I shall continue to consider them as very real possibilities.

Well i don't put my trust about the reality of God on speculation. I can't afford to rely on speculation on such an important matter. The conviction of an open heart should direct all who believe, it is the evidence of things not seen. You think it is on others to provide you evidence? Wrong, it is on you to seek God for yourself. Jesus said "seek and you will find". The story of Jesus is explained. In fact it is explained perfectly, with the t's crossed and the i's dotted. But you doubt on nothing more then speculation.

[Justin108]

But if you compiled a book of 700,000 words, with nearly 230,000 words of it as prophesy, and just by chance got it all right... That is pretty much statistically impossible...

Until you actually tell me what these hundreds of prophecies are, I cannot comment. So please, stop dancing around the request for prophecies and just list them. You don't even have to list all of them. Name your top 10 most remarkable. Top 5 if 10 is too much

Im not going to dig out specific prophesies.

Then you're wasting my time. You're making a claim but you refuse to support it.

I have seen these rebuttals before, and none of them have ever came back with a false prophesy.

And they don't need to. My rebuttals usually either prove that the prophecies are unremarkable - like predicting it will rain, or not confirmed to be true - like Jesus coming back from the dead.

If you can come back with false prophesies, then do that

You're shifting the burden of proof. You claimed that Jesus fulfilled several prophecies. it's your job to support your claim.

Statistically speaking, if you predicted it would rain tomorrow maybe that would be dumb luck, but if you did that 230,000 times in a row... Gets a bit outrageous doesn't it?

You insist that 230 000 prophecies came true but you cannot even mention 10.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 52 by MadeNew]

!

Lets NOT speculate, lets use our BEST reasoning and the most VERIFIED facts.

I can't afford to rely on speculation on such an important matter.

That's a very good idea. I feel the same exact way.

People speculate all the time about what they can't see. But we should not just BELIEVE what can be imagined. We can IMAGINE almost anything at all.. humans are very imaginative.. And don't we EVER like to speculate !! The internet is chock FULL of speculations.

We should do better than just speculate.
We should rely on facts.

And I think we should really make sure that we got those facts right.
Especially when it comes to something important.

So, I agree with you there.
I think you are on the right track.

I don't know if you are APPLYING that principle very well, though.
I'm not sure that you have reliable facts. And that's the kind of question I would ask just about any theist.. "What are your facts?".. and "How can we verify that they are true"?.. If we can't do that.. and those questions should be asked about ALL important beliefs, if we can't answer those two questions.. well.... I'm afraid we should really doubt the validity of our beliefs.

I STILL find myself believing ( quite earnestly ) things that MIGHT NOT BE TRUE... so, I am learning now to be CAREFUL about what I believe in... and you know... that aint so easy. I think that humans are made in such a way that they believe more than they DISBELIEVE... it's not as easy to disbelieve something as is to accept ... for some reason... maybe evolutionary reasons... but I think there are WAY more believers than non believers.. and MARKETING REALLY WORKS.

So, be wary of the savvy salesman. Remember, that the brightest and the best USED to go directly into RELIGIOUS training ( there really wasn't anything else at the time even PERMITTED ) .. and those guys ( monks and priests ) did almost nothing BUT make up clever religious arguments. And I am talking about thousands of clever people.. the cleverest of the clever, really.. thinking HARD for hundreds and hundreds of years. And NOBODY could ever argue with them... or if they did... they were tortured and killed.

Some people were tortured and killed for not professing the correct belief.. and since it was USUALLY done in public ... people got the message. Believe that or die. Even if you don't really believe, that, pretend that you believe that and teach it to your kids or die. And even then, you might die. Fear the priest, fear your neighbor, fear the king, fear anyone at all.. fear the lord... fear fear fear .. fear hell just FEAR... and believe that God is love.

Yep, very effective marketing over a very long time.

"Things go better with God©".

So, that religious heritage runs DEEP....
I'd want to take a look at that.
Marketing wants to SELL... And preaching is like selling... Selling religious ideas.. the hard sell, too. To children, no less. We CANNOT ever forget that most of us were indoctrinated AS CHILDREN into this stuff, when we are at the MOST vulnerable. To discount that completely without thinking ... is ... to my mind, a very very big mistake.

I want to ONLY use the very best method to know if something very important is real or not. What method do YOU use?

I can't afford to rely on speculation on such an important matter.

The conviction of an open heart should direct all who believe, it is the evidence of things not seen.

As an atheist, I have to ask you how SHOULD that be? ... I don't get it. If I want to know if ANYTHING exists, how is my "open heart" going to direct me? ... I need a method. So, I use what is known as "critical thinking".

http://www.criticalthinking.org/

Are you saying that the evidence you have, the fact that you go by that your God is real, is your CONVICTION that it is real? How does a conviction help you know that what you are convinced about is REAL? Do you see the circularity here?

Convinced about what you are convinced about and that convinces you ... and so on and so on... in a tight circle.. ending up where you started from?

It would be a HUGE mistake to indulge in circular reasoning.. so I urge you to exclude that possibility. Don't just go round and round in circles. Don't start off with your conclusion.. and THEN find reasons to justify it. Don't start off at your end point.. that's going backwards.. reasoning backwards.

You want to go FORWARD towards a conclusion... not backwards, towards your premises. That's one of the biggest logic mistakes that apologists make.

Thinking backwards from the desired conclusion UP to the premises... only to find the conclusion there.

In other words, make sure that you don't start off with presuming that God exists, only to prove to yourself that God does exist. Because you will ALWAYS arrive at your destination, since you started from there in the FIRST PLACE.

Two thousand YEARS scholars have been making twists of logic to make their God beliefs seem reasonable. That's a whole lot of years, and a whole lot of scholars.. ALL having to prove God from the get go... or die. It was do or die in those days... until about a few hundred years ago. Did they have any real CHOICE?.. well, they had the choice to do as they were TOLD.. or die.

So, the ones who wanted to LIVE and not really burn at the stake "believed" really really really hard, and made up some EXTREMELY clever arguments. And then, the kids were indoctrinated.. the kids didn't have any choice either. I know when I was a kid, I didn't have any choice but to be indoctrinated... what about you?.. Any choice in the matter? But I digress.

This is what I see you saying here.... ( and please, feel free to clarify if I got anything wrong as I often do )

1. You have a conviction that God is real.
2. And somehow, that conviction convinces you that God is real.
3. You say that you are guided by your heart... and by that, I suppose you mean what you consider to be your best emotions and best intentions. I don't doubt that for a minute. But do you think that your FEELINGS and INTENTIONS should be your measure for what EXISTS?
4. In other words, aren't you telling us that you are convinced by your conviction alone? Surely, you must have other reasons to think your God is real than your conviction that he is real?

To believe in things not seen sounds to me that you HAVE to speculate. When I can't see something, and I want to believe that something is there.. don't I have to speculate?

But, you did say that you don't use speculation... Could you clear that up?

You think it is on others to provide you evidence?

Actually, when it comes to honest debates, yes, of course.

I'm not a theist.. so I don't claim that there is a god. IF I DID.. it would be incumbent on me to provide evidence for any claim that I would make. Unfortunately, I don't make any claims. I QUESTION and CHALLENGE yours, if you make them.

Do you believe that a God exists?
IF you make that claim, in here, you probably will be asked to provide evidence for it.
That's just the way it works in here.

It might work differently in churches, or in a Holy Huddle.

You are quite free to believe anything that your heart desires. However, if you want to tell us that your god beliefs have any merit, you might want to prove that they do. Many Christians come in here.. into a debate forum and just forget that we have to back up our claims in here, or the claims fall flat.

You can make as many empty claims as you like. But.. if challenged, the forum dictates that you provide evidence.

"5. Support your assertions/arguments with evidence. Do not persist in making a claim without supporting it. All unsupported claims can be challenged for supporting evidence. Opinions require no support, but they should not be considered as valid to any argument, nor will they be considered as legitimate support for any claim. "
http://www.debatingchristianity.com/for ... ic.php?t=6

So, at least in this forum, you do have to provide evidence.
Sorry.

I know you probably don't like that. Not too many Christians seem to.
But in any case that shouldn't be a problem for you. If you don't speculate, you will HAVE evidence. So, it will be pretty easy for you to tell us what it is.

You will also notice that this section of the forum is called Christianity and Apologetics.. Apologetics means giving reasons for beliefs.

"Reasoned arguments or writings in justification of something, typically a theory or religious doctrine"
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... pologetics

And it's even a Biblical injunction that at least, SOME Christians like to follow:

1 Peter 3:15
"but honor the Messiah as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you."
http://biblereasons.com/defending-the-faith/

Wrong, it is on you to seek God for yourself.

We HAVE heard that slogan before, you know.

First off, t's plain that nobody ELSE can find God ... for me.
So, OF COURSE, I have to seek God for myself.

I've sought God and have not found any. HENCE...... I'm an atheist.
I am open to evidence for the existence of any god.

Do you have any that would be of any use to me?

You seem to think that people who have lost their faith were never seeking, and seeking fervently. You seem to think that atheists are not aware of Biblical texts. Some debate members have a very deep knowledge of the Bible. Some members have truly sought for God for a very long time. Some still are seeking, but have not found. Help them out. Provide your very BEST evidence.

Put your beliefs to the test.. if they pass... you have CONVINCED US TOO.
You must have profoundly good reasons to believe what you happen to believe.

SHARE WITH US THOSE REASONS PLEASE.

This is your golden opportunity.. don't miss it.

I am always open for God to make an appearance in my life.
I am also always open for your evidence, if you so choose to give us any.

So far, all I see is bluster.
So... how about those facts?

Jesus said "seek and you will find". The story of Jesus is explained. In fact it is explained perfectly, with the t's crossed and the i's dotted.

Your evaluation, your CLAIM that these Bible stories are "perfect" is another bit of bluster, I'm afraid. Many people ( me, for example ), including many scholars don't think that the Bible is a perfect document. Just CALLING the Bible "perfect" isn't demonstrating to ANYONE that it is.

I can call it IMPERFECT... and my calling it that doesn't make it so, EITHER.
Labeling isn't a demonstration.. it's just word play.

WE WOULD LIKE FACTS, INSTEAD OF LABELS OR SLOGANS

"Things go better with Coke©" is a marketing slogan... but is it TRUE that things go better with Coke?... Not in my experience. Even though we are told that it's true OFTEN ENOUGH.. and as far as I can tell. Coke IS very popular.

Some people might even say that Coke is the perfect refreshment. Opinions do vary. Others prefer Pepsi.. I prefer what is know in the beverage world as "water". And I just can't blindly trust that you are able to make a perfect assessment. Sorry.
I don't want to speculate either, so I will need some FACTS.

Is it a FACT that the Bible is perfect, or is it your opinion?.. Because, as far as I know, facts are not the same as opinions. Critical thinking helps me distinguish the two. What method do YOU use to distinguish the two?

You just made a claim there.. you have claimed that the Bible is perfect.
By forum rules, if challenged, you would have to demonstrate that your claim is true by way of evidence. I do challenge you.

Welcome to debates.

Hope you get my name.

But you doubt on nothing more then speculation.

That sentence doesn't make much sense to me.. could you clarify what you mean by that?

How does someone DOUBT that something is true.. by speculating?
If someone makes a claim THAT I DOUBT... I just doubt that it's true.. and probably ask for evidence if I get the chance. How is THAT speculating?

I don't see what you mean.


I hope to read your replies.

[MadeNew]

[Replying to post 52 by MadeNew]

!

Lets NOT speculate, lets use our BEST reasoning and the most VERIFIED facts.

I can't afford to rely on speculation on such an important matter.

That's a very good idea. I feel the same exact way.

People speculate all the time about what they can't see. But we should not just BELIEVE what can be imagined. We can IMAGINE almost anything at all.. humans are very imaginative.. And don't we EVER like to speculate !! The internet is chock FULL of speculations.

We should do better than just speculate.
We should rely on facts.

And I think we should really make sure that we got those facts right.
Especially when it comes to something important.

So, I agree with you there.
I think you are on the right track.

I don't know if you are APPLYING that principle very well, though.
I'm not sure that you have reliable facts. And that's the kind of question I would ask just about any theist.. "What are your facts?".. and "How can we verify that they are true"?.. If we can't do that.. and those questions should be asked about ALL important beliefs, if we can't answer those two questions.. well.... I'm afraid we should really doubt the validity of our beliefs.

I STILL find myself believing ( quite earnestly ) things that MIGHT NOT BE TRUE... so, I am learning now to be CAREFUL about what I believe in... and you know... that aint so easy. I think that humans are made in such a way that they believe more than they DISBELIEVE... it's not as easy to disbelieve something as is to accept ... for some reason... maybe evolutionary reasons... but I think there are WAY more believers than non believers.. and MARKETING REALLY WORKS.

That is normal. In fact that is part of human consciousness. To have a child like wonder for things of the unexplainable, this is normal to humanity and is something shot down by materialism. That there might be more to life then just this cold hard randomness explanation of matter in motion. In fact, i have read multiple time that when people open there heart up to things of the unexplained, to the possibility of life having purpose and meaning, instead of just matter in motion materialism, that has turned atheist into seekers, and eventually Christians. In fact i have heard from atheists who have all the knowledge of the things debated about with religion, but the thing that turned this man whom I'm talking about to God was the fact that he couldn't wrestle with such a meaningless reality with materialism.

It is perfectly normal to believe that things might not fit into your little box of matter in motion. Consciousness is so much more then materialism. Here is testimony from abn atheists.



Jesus told us to be like children, and rightly so because children have this innocent kind of ability to ponder wonderful kinds of things. I mean Einstein has a really great quote about this kind of wonder..

"We are in the position of a little child, entering a huge library whose walls are covered to the ceiling with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written those books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books, a mysterious order, which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of the human mind, even the greatest and most cultured, toward God."~Einstein

In fact "hermeneutics", which is the philosophy of interpretation, tells us "A divine message must be received with implicit uncertainty regarding its truth. This ambiguity is an irrationality; it is a sort of madness that is inflicted upon the receiver of the message. Only one who possesses a rational method of interpretation (i.e., a hermeneutic) could determine the truth or falsity of the message."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics

It tell us that we should receive this message with uncertainty. Like a child wondering. And from that we can determine if it is true or not. This principle is constantly violated by nonbelievers. Jesus can't be truly the Son of God. What i want you to do is to be open about your disbelief. You guys flat out lie all the time saying stuff like "i want to believe" or "i use to believe until i read the Bible", I am convinced this is just lies.

I agree with Simon Greenleaf
"Of the Divine character of the Bible, I think, no man who deals honestly with his own mind and heart can entertain a reasonable doubt. For myself, I must say, that having for many years made the evidences of Christianity the subject of close study, the result has been a firm and increasing conviction of the authenticity and plenary inspiration of the Bible. It is indeed the Word of God."~Simon Greenleaf

What i want you guys to actually admit is your disbelief. Just be honest and open about it, you don't believe and you receive the message of God from non-belief. Just be honest with yourselves.

So, be wary of the savvy salesman. Remember, that the brightest and the best USED to go directly into RELIGIOUS training ( there really wasn't anything else at the time even PERMITTED ) .. and those guys ( monks and priests ) did almost nothing BUT make up clever religious arguments. And I am talking about thousands of clever people.. the cleverest of the clever, really.. thinking HARD for hundreds and hundreds of years. And NOBODY could ever argue with them... or if they did... they were tortured and killed.

Some people were tortured and killed for not professing the correct belief.. and since it was USUALLY done in public ... people got the message. Believe that or die. Even if you don't really believe, that, pretend that you believe that and teach it to your kids or die. And even then, you might die. Fear the priest, fear your neighbor, fear the king, fear anyone at all.. fear the lord... fear fear fear .. fear hell just FEAR... and believe that God is love.

Yep, very effective marketing over a very long time.

"Things go better with God©".

So, that religious heritage runs DEEP....
I'd want to take a look at that.
Marketing wants to SELL... And preaching is like selling... Selling religious ideas.. the hard sell, too. To children, no less. We CANNOT ever forget that most of us were indoctrinated AS CHILDREN into this stuff, when we are at the MOST vulnerable. To discount that completely without thinking ... is ... to my mind, a very very big mistake.

First of all, the people who were dieing for not renouncing their faith WERE THE CHRISTIANS. I mean they literally stoned to death Paul, they though he was dead and miraculously still alive (Acts 14:19-28). Paul died by spreading the "Good News"! They only people who say our God isn't a loving God are the people who don't believe. And i sure as heck wasn't "indoctrinated". Even if that some how mattered, and wasn't committing a genetic fallacy, it doesn't happen. I am convinced the only people who are "indoctrinated" are nonbelievers who later turn into atheists. This is nonsensical to indoctrinate Children. The church i go to is built on a grown persons choice to get baptized, and that only comes from AFTER studying the Bible and if they truly believe in it. It doesn't matter though, a genetic fallacy like "indoctrination" tells us nothing about whether or not the belief is true, it is just a "fallacy of irrelevance".

And i also want to mention, our faith isn't built on some savvy spokesperson. It is built on the fulfillment of Gods Word. It is built on the power of God. In fact, Paul admitted that believing in the Cross isn't only offensive it is also foolishness. He told people this... That is nothing like trying to trick people. It is built on the understanding of the Cross, of Jesus the Christ.

"When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power."(1 Corinthians 2)

I want to ONLY use the very best method to know if something very important is real or not. What method do YOU use?

This is like a total materialist question, "What method do you use to know what is true".. What "method"? I use my consciousness to explore what is truth.

I can't afford to rely on speculation on such an important matter.

The conviction of an open heart should direct all who believe, it is the evidence of things not seen.

As an atheist, I have to ask you how SHOULD that be? ... I don't get it. If I want to know if ANYTHING exists, how is my "open heart" going to direct me? ... I need a method. So, I use what is known as "critical thinking".

http://www.criticalthinking.org/

Are you saying that the evidence you have, the fact that you go by that your God is real, is your CONVICTION that it is real? How does a conviction help you know that what you are convinced about is REAL? Do you see the circularity here?

Convinced about what you are convinced about and that convinces you ... and so on and so on... in a tight circle.. ending up where you started from?

It would be a HUGE mistake to indulge in circular reasoning.. so I urge you to exclude that possibility. Don't just go round and round in circles. Don't start off with your conclusion.. and THEN find reasons to justify it. Don't start off at your end point.. that's going backwards.. reasoning backwards.

You want to go FORWARD towards a conclusion... not backwards, towards your premises. That's one of the biggest logic mistakes that apologists make.

Thinking backwards from the desired conclusion UP to the premises... only to find the conclusion there.

In other words, make sure that you don't start off with presuming that God exists, only to prove to yourself that God does exist. Because you will ALWAYS arrive at your destination, since you started from there in the FIRST PLACE.

Two thousand YEARS scholars have been making twists of logic to make their God beliefs seem reasonable. That's a whole lot of years, and a whole lot of scholars.. ALL having to prove God from the get go... or die. It was do or die in those days... until about a few hundred years ago. Did they have any real CHOICE?.. well, they had the choice to do as they were TOLD.. or die.

So, the ones who wanted to LIVE and not really burn at the stake "believed" really really really hard, and made up some EXTREMELY clever arguments. And then, the kids were indoctrinated.. the kids didn't have any choice either. I know when I was a kid, I didn't have any choice but to be indoctrinated... what about you?.. Any choice in the matter? But I digress.

This is what I see you saying here.... ( and please, feel free to clarify if I got anything wrong as I often do )

1. You have a conviction that God is real.
2. And somehow, that conviction convinces you that God is real.
3. You say that you are guided by your heart... and by that, I suppose you mean what you consider to be your best emotions and best intentions. I don't doubt that for a minute. But do you think that your FEELINGS and INTENTIONS should be your measure for what EXISTS?
4. In other words, aren't you telling us that you are convinced by your conviction alone? Surely, you must have other reasons to think your God is real than your conviction that he is real?

To believe in things not seen sounds to me that you HAVE to speculate. When I can't see something, and I want to believe that something is there.. don't I have to speculate?

But, you did say that you don't use speculation... Could you clear that up?

You think it is on others to provide you evidence?

Actually, when it comes to honest debates, yes, of course.

I'm not a theist.. so I don't claim that there is a god. IF I DID.. it would be incumbent on me to provide evidence for any claim that I would make. Unfortunately, I don't make any claims. I QUESTION and CHALLENGE yours, if you make them.

Do you believe that a God exists?
IF you make that claim, in here, you probably will be asked to provide evidence for it.
That's just the way it works in here.

It might work differently in churches, or in a Holy Huddle.

You are quite free to believe anything that your heart desires. However, if you want to tell us that your god beliefs have any merit, you might want to prove that they do. Many Christians come in here.. into a debate forum and just forget that we have to back up our claims in here, or the claims fall flat.

You can make as many empty claims as you like. But.. if challenged, the forum dictates that you provide evidence.

"5. Support your assertions/arguments with evidence. Do not persist in making a claim without supporting it. All unsupported claims can be challenged for supporting evidence. Opinions require no support, but they should not be considered as valid to any argument, nor will they be considered as legitimate support for any claim. "
http://www.debatingchristianity.com/for ... ic.php?t=6

So, at least in this forum, you do have to provide evidence.
Sorry.

I know you probably don't like that. Not too many Christians seem to.
But in any case that shouldn't be a problem for you. If you don't speculate, you will HAVE evidence. So, it will be pretty easy for you to tell us what it is.

You will also notice that this section of the forum is called Christianity and Apologetics.. Apologetics means giving reasons for beliefs.

"Reasoned arguments or writings in justification of something, typically a theory or religious doctrine"
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... pologetics

And it's even a Biblical injunction that at least, SOME Christians like to follow:

1 Peter 3:15
"but honor the Messiah as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you."
http://biblereasons.com/defending-the-faith/

Wrong, it is on you to seek God for yourself.

We HAVE heard that slogan before, you know.

First off, t's plain that nobody ELSE can find God ... for me.
So, OF COURSE, I have to seek God for myself.

I've sought God and have not found any. HENCE...... I'm an atheist.
I am open to evidence for the existence of any god.

Do you have any that would be of any use to me?

You seem to think that people who have lost their faith were never seeking, and seeking fervently. You seem to think that atheists are not aware of Biblical texts. Some debate members have a very deep knowledge of the Bible. Some members have truly sought for God for a very long time. Some still are seeking, but have not found. Help them out. Provide your very BEST evidence.

Put your beliefs to the test.. if they pass... you have CONVINCED US TOO.
You must have profoundly good reasons to believe what you happen to believe.

SHARE WITH US THOSE REASONS PLEASE.

This is your golden opportunity.. don't miss it.

I am always open for God to make an appearance in my life.
I am also always open for your evidence, if you so choose to give us any.

So far, all I see is bluster.
So... how about those facts?

Jesus said "seek and you will find". The story of Jesus is explained. In fact it is explained perfectly, with the t's crossed and the i's dotted.

Your evaluation, your CLAIM that these Bible stories are "perfect" is another bit of bluster, I'm afraid. Many people ( me, for example ), including many scholars don't think that the Bible is a perfect document. Just CALLING the Bible "perfect" isn't demonstrating to ANYONE that it is.

I can call it IMPERFECT... and my calling it that doesn't make it so, EITHER.
Labeling isn't a demonstration.. it's just word play.

WE WOULD LIKE FACTS, INSTEAD OF LABELS OR SLOGANS

"Things go better with Coke©" is a marketing slogan... but is it TRUE that things go better with Coke?... Not in my experience. Even though we are told that it's true OFTEN ENOUGH.. and as far as I can tell. Coke IS very popular.

Some people might even say that Coke is the perfect refreshment. Opinions do vary. Others prefer Pepsi.. I prefer what is know in the beverage world as "water". And I just can't blindly trust that you are able to make a perfect assessment. Sorry.
I don't want to speculate either, so I will need some FACTS.

Is it a FACT that the Bible is perfect, or is it your opinion?.. Because, as far as I know, facts are not the same as opinions. Critical thinking helps me distinguish the two. What method do YOU use to distinguish the two?

You just made a claim there.. you have claimed that the Bible is perfect.
By forum rules, if challenged, you would have to demonstrate that your claim is true by way of evidence. I do challenge you.

Welcome to debates.

Hope you get my name.

But you doubt on nothing more then speculation.

That sentence doesn't make much sense to me.. could you clarify what you mean by that?

How does someone DOUBT that something is true.. by speculating?
If someone makes a claim THAT I DOUBT... I just doubt that it's true.. and probably ask for evidence if I get the chance. How is THAT speculating?

I don't see what you mean.


I hope to read your replies.

Unfortunately i had to leave before i read the rest of the quote. If you would like to make a point from your quote that went unread please do. I am leaving for the night.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 55 by MadeNew]

That is normal. In fact that is part of human consciousness. To have a child like wonder for things of the unexplainable, this is normal to humanity and is something shot down by materialism.

You could not be more wrong.

I'm not a materialist.. well.. almost but not quite...
And I've heard these attacks on "naturalism" for years now from the apologists.

THEY ARE JUST FACTUALLY WRONG.

As wrong as wrong can be.

It's just not TRUE that materialism shoots down child like WONDER .

You should read what Richard Dawkins has to say about it.. he talks about the sense of awe and wonder ALL THE TIME. And HE might be a materialist, if anyone is.

“The feeling of awed wonder that science can give us is one of the highest experiences of which the human psyche is capable. It is a deep aesthetic passion to rank with the finest that music and poetry can deliver. It is truly one of the things that make life worth living and it does so, if anything, more effectively if it convinces us that the time we have for living is quite finite.�

― Richard Dawkins, Unweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder

And yes, I'm a fan, because he writes stuff like that ALL THE TIME

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 55 by MadeNew]

That there might be more to life then just this cold hard randomness explanation of matter in motion.

Well, OF COURSE THERE IS... but we have to build that ourselves. It's not somehow.. just "OUT THERE" smiling down on us lil passive children.

We can be grownups and take charge of our our happiness.
If people WANT to be depressed and feel that life is just cold hard randomness or something weird like that.. OK.

It's a free world.

But wow.... depressing.
And some people suffer from a serious mental condition called DEPRESSION.. THEISM or NOT. Supernaturalism or NOT, materialism or NOT.. ANY "ISM" or not.

But that has NOTHING to do with materialism LEADING to utter dark despair.

That has to do with HORRIBLE APOLOGETIC LIES against materialism.

In fact, i have read multiple time that when people open there heart up to things of the unexplained, to the possibility of life having purpose and meaning, instead of just matter in motion materialism, that has turned atheist into seekers, and eventually Christians. In fact i have heard from atheists who have all the knowledge of the things debated about with religion, but the thing that turned this man whom I'm talking about to God was the fact that he couldn't wrestle with such a meaningless reality with materialism.

Sure, maybe lots of people are like that. Who knows?
I hear this all the time.

It sounds anecdotal to me.
I can tell you anecdotes about SO many Christians who were UTTERLY oppressed and depressed until they got FREE from religion.. Think of cults.. think of very large cults... now.. think of RELIGIOUS cults... Have you ever heard of people leaving cults?

Do you think that people who leave their religion do so because their religions make them so very HAPPY? Don't you think if they were overwhelmingly happy with their NON MATERIALIST thinking that they would just want to STAY happy? Do you think that no theists ever feels DESPAIR or gets utterly depressed? Even CLINICALLY depressed?

Maybe some people need PILLS and NOT Jesus... ever think of THAT ONE?

You aren't thinking well at all here.

Too bad that guy had a very wrong understanding of materialism.
It happens.

It happening to you.

I urge you to go learn what materialism REALLY means, and NOT from some apologist hell bent on presenting it in the WORST possible light.

These apologists want to make the SUPERNATURAL look real good, so they try to make MATERIALISM look real bad.. and it seems that they have done their job with you, doesn't it?

Be a materialist and your life has NO MEANING. RIGHT? Just random molecules... let's all kill ourselves now.

Wrong, just plain old white bread toast with peanut butter wrong.

It is perfectly normal to believe that things might not fit into your little box of matter in motion. Consciousness is so much more then materialism. Here is testimony from abn atheists.

Look, the only thing you will accomplish by giving us a link to a video about a guy who used to be an atheist and is now a Christian is demonstrating that he used to be an atheist and now he is a Christian. And by the way, you also have to wonder if this isn't just some Christian propaganda. We know that happens on the internet.

You got a guy testifying stuff... great.
He COULD be an actor for all we know.

I can testify too.
Want me to?

If he based his belief on a misunderstanding of MATERIALISM.. he isn't a very good thinker. He could have GOOGLED THAT.

I quoted you Dawkins, in a previous post, and it took me 8 seconds to find.
"Not exactly rocket science", as they say.

But maybe the guy on the video converted before the internet.. who knows?
In any case.. we don't need to believe in any god to not be DEPRESSED, ok?

BELIEVE IT OR NOT

Atheists can be happy, too.
As amazing as that might be to you.

Look at the smiley:

[MadeNew]

[Replying to post 55 by MadeNew]

That is normal. In fact that is part of human consciousness. To have a child like wonder for things of the unexplainable, this is normal to humanity and is something shot down by materialism.

You could not be more wrong.

I'm not a materialist.. well.. almost but not quite...
And I've heard these attacks on "naturalism" for years now from the apologists.

THEY ARE JUST FACTUALLY WRONG.

As wrong as wrong can be.

It's just not TRUE that materialism shoots down child like WONDER .

You should read what Richard Dawkins has to say about it.. he talks about the sense of awe and wonder ALL THE TIME. And HE might be a materialist, if anyone is.

“The feeling of awed wonder that science can give us is one of the highest experiences of which the human psyche is capable. It is a deep aesthetic passion to rank with the finest that music and poetry can deliver. It is truly one of the things that make life worth living and it does so, if anything, more effectively if it convinces us that the time we have for living is quite finite.�

― Richard Dawkins, Unweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder

And yes, I'm a fan, because he writes stuff like that ALL THE TIME

Ok, this is just a subjective feeling. It is funny how you were just criticizing "the savvy salesman" and then you give me this quote, like I'm suppose to be impressed with this total sales pitch for how great naturalism is by some subjective feeling Dawkins has.

The question is, do you believe there is nothing outside of nature. That all things have to be explained by a naturalistic explanation?

[Monta]

[Replying to post 58 by MadeNew]


“The feeling of awed wonder that science can give us is one of the highest experiences of which the human psyche is capable. It is a deep aesthetic passion to rank with the finest that music and poetry can deliver. It is truly one of the things that make life worth living and it does so, if anything, more effectively if it convinces us that the time we have for living is quite finite.�

---Richard Dawkins, Unweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder//

He is talking from a lack of true life expereince.

[MadeNew]

[Replying to post 55 by MadeNew]

That there might be more to life then just this cold hard randomness explanation of matter in motion.

Well, OF COURSE THERE IS... but we have to build that ourselves. It's not somehow.. just "OUT THERE" smiling down on us lil passive children.

We can be grownups and take charge of our our happiness.
If people WANT to be depressed and feel that life is just cold hard randomness or something weird like that.. OK.

It's a free world.

But wow.... depressing.
And some people suffer from a serious mental condition called DEPRESSION.. THEISM or NOT. Supernaturalism or NOT, materialism or NOT.. ANY "ISM" or not.

But that has NOTHING to do with materialism LEADING to utter dark despair.

That has to do with HORRIBLE APOLOGETIC LIES against materialism.

In fact, i have read multiple time that when people open there heart up to things of the unexplained, to the possibility of life having purpose and meaning, instead of just matter in motion materialism, that has turned atheist into seekers, and eventually Christians. In fact i have heard from atheists who have all the knowledge of the things debated about with religion, but the thing that turned this man whom I'm talking about to God was the fact that he couldn't wrestle with such a meaningless reality with materialism.

Sure, maybe lots of people are like that. Who knows?
I hear this all the time.

It sounds anecdotal to me.
I can tell you anecdotes about SO many Christians who were UTTERLY oppressed and depressed until they got FREE from religion.. Think of cults.. think of very large cults... now.. think of RELIGIOUS cults... Have you ever heard of people leaving cults?

Do you think that people who leave their religion do so because their religions make them so very HAPPY? Don't you think if they were overwhelmingly happy with their NON MATERIALIST thinking that they would just want to STAY happy? Do you think that no theists ever feels DESPAIR or gets utterly depressed? Even CLINICALLY depressed?

Maybe some people need PILLS and NOT Jesus... ever think of THAT ONE?

You aren't thinking well at all here.

Too bad that guy had a very wrong understanding of materialism.
It happens.

It happening to you.

I urge you to go learn what materialism REALLY means, and NOT from some apologist hell bent on presenting it in the WORST possible light.

These apologists want to make the SUPERNATURAL look real good, so they try to make MATERIALISM look real bad.. and it seems that they have done their job with you, doesn't it?

Be a materialist and your life has NO MEANING. RIGHT? Just random molecules... let's all kill ourselves now.

Wrong, just plain old white bread toast with peanut butter wrong.

It is perfectly normal to believe that things might not fit into your little box of matter in motion. Consciousness is so much more then materialism. Here is testimony from abn atheists.

Look, the only thing you will accomplish by giving us a link to a video about a guy who used to be an atheist and is now a Christian is demonstrating that he used to be an atheist and now he is a Christian. And by the way, you also have to wonder if this isn't just some Christian propaganda. We know that happens on the internet.

You got a guy testifying stuff... great.
He COULD be an actor for all we know.

I can testify too.
Want me to?

If he based his belief on a misunderstanding of MATERIALISM.. he isn't a very good thinker. He could have GOOGLED THAT.

I quoted you Dawkins, in a previous post, and it took me 8 seconds to find.
"Not exactly rocket science", as they say.

But maybe the guy on the video converted before the internet.. who knows?
In any case.. we don't need to believe in any god to not be DEPRESSED, ok?

BELIEVE IT OR NOT

Atheists can be happy, too.
As amazing as that might be to you.

Look at the smiley:

I know what materialism is dude. "the doctrine that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications."

It is the belief that the resurrection could have never happened by a directed divine process. It is the belief that God can't exits.. Yet do you have any proof of that? What proof do you have that materialism is true?

That because God isn't explained by some naturalistic way, that therefor he can't exists... It is extremely closed minded, and it violates hermeneutics, and it violates knowledge as far as I'm concerned. We don't get anywhere from restricting our knowledge to such boxes. Every breakthrough in human knowledge and understanding has broke outside of such restrictions... Materialism is just closed minded. It is pretty simple.