If you didn't want to believe in Christianity...

[Justin108]

If you didn't want to believe in Christianity, would you stop believing? Suppose you didn't like Christianity at all. Suppose you didn't like the idea of Jesus dying for your sins, an afterlife, etc. would your belief in Christianity stop?

If not, what is it about Christianity that makes any alternative so absolutely unbelievable?

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 84 by OnceConvinced]

OC, you don't believe in Christianity, therefor you are not a Christian...

I am not a Christian ANY MORE. There is a big difference.

You can imagine what you like, but you are dead wrong. I was a genuine believer for over 30 years. Not once did God ever tell me I was not a true Christian. Not once did any other Christians tell me I was a pretender. In fact I was valued in the churches I was at. Even put into positions of responsibility and leadership. So if I was never a true Christian, then nobody can ever be assured that they are a true Christian. You certainly can't... a babe when it comes to Christianity

This is what I put on my website to address people like you. I recommend you read it. You might see why I take offence at the things you say:

http://reckersworld.jimdo.com/religion/ ... -dare-you/

Your story tells us that you stopped believing in Christianity, this is evidence you never truly believed it.

Nope, that's completely illogical. I very much did truly believe it. I know how genuine I was. You don't. I find it typical of people like yourself who will take scriptures out of context like the one you did to try to say that anyone who leaves Christianity can't have been a true one, yet ignores the multitude of scriptures that say you can become an ex-Christian.

Your story provided the evidence of this, your words deny this.

You clearly didn't read my story properly.

And 1 John 2 is talking about anyone who leaves the faith,

Nope you have taken it out of context. verse 26 clarifies that he is talking about some specific people who were trying to lead people astray. He called them anti-christs. I am most definitely not anti-christ anyway. But go on ignore the many other scriptures that show it is possible to have been a real Christian and left. I gave you one scripture that shows this. You ignored it. And take a look at Judas. Do you really think Jesus would have taken him on as a disciple if he wasn't a true believer?

You have provided evidence you are not a Christian

Nope, you have conjured that up from your own imagination. You are in no position to judge. You can't possibly know just how genuine I was. How sincere I was. I KNOW I was a true believer. You are simply contradicting something I know as a matter of fact.

You yourself seem very much like a false Christian to me based on the lack of the fruits of the holy spirit. Your lack of kindness, gentleness, self-control show me without a doubt you are not a true Christian. So anything you say I can't possibly take seriously.

, and you never belonged to the Faith. Your story is testimony to such thing, and your denial is just words.

Until you can start to try and apply a little empathy you will never understand how someone can go from Christian to ex-Christian.

Clearly your faith is threatened by the fact that it is possible to become an ex-Christian. Even Paul himself knew that he could fall:

I Corinthians 9:27
I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

And if I was never a true Christian then all these scriptures are downright lies:

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so that whosoever shall believe in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Luke 11:13
If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

And that is pretty much the end of the debate.

Yes, this is indeed the end of the debate. Who are you to tell me I was never a true Christian when you don't even know me or knew my heart when I was one. How long have you been on this earth? Not even 32 years. You are but a babe for Christ. You have never been as dedicated as I was. Not by a long shot.

When you have been a dedicated Christian for a continuous 30 years, then you can come and tell me I was never a true Christian. Until then all you are doing is blowing hot air and I can't possibly take you seriously.

[OnceConvinced]

We know that Jesus spoke in parables.

Which Jesus explained in most cases. I don't believe I personally had issues understanding any of the parables. Maybe when I was a small child, but that was a long time ago.

Besides that, spiritual things are clothed with natural in order to be seen and made sense of (spiritual in itself is foreign to us in the world of time and space).

Yes, Christians believe they have a supernatural encoder within them called the holy spirit. I used to believe that too. I used to discuss the spiritual things in great detail with other Christians.

OT can not be taken literaly. Jews do not.

It's often a matter of opinion as to what is literal and what is not.

Yes i read books opposing Christianity. Read Dawkings when I was in spiritual widerness for 20ys. I believe the Lord continues to reveal Himself many different ways. It's up to us not to be quick in judgment and decide what is from Him what is not, i.e. a Muslim having OBE and meeting Jesus.
Better to try and understand.

Agreed. Some other members whose names I won't mention could do with taking a similar approach.

[MadeNew]

Im not going to continue to debate wether of not you were a Christian. All i am doing is showing the facts, of what a Christian is, and who would be qualified as a Christian.. It is clear that people who leave the Faith never belonged to the Faith, that is in the epistles of John. It is also clear that people who claim to be Christian, aren't always Christian.

"22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"~Jesus Christ

I am not going to subject someones own claimed beliefs to scrutiny any more, all I'm going to say is that i have shown reasons to believe what i believe, and it isn't based on just my word, it is based on evidence from Christianity. If we had to take someones word for it, i guess that is ok, but not good for debating on such things.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 93 by MadeNew]

Im not going to continue to debate wether of not you were a Christian. All i am doing is showing the facts, of what a Christian is, and who would be qualified as a Christian.. It is clear that people who leave the Faith never belonged to the Faith, that is in the epistles of John. It is also clear that people who claim to be Christian, aren't always Christian.

[center]How does not changing one's religious beliefs make them true?[/center]

[MadeNew]

Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge."

[OnceConvinced]

Im not going to continue to debate wether of not you were a Christian. All i am doing is showing the facts, of what a Christian is, and who would be qualified as a Christian.

Which you haven't done. All you've done is given your opinion and then taken one verse out of context while ignoring all the rest.

. It is clear that people who leave the Faith never belonged to the Faith,

That is your opinion and many verses in the bible go against that claim. I have already provided a solid verse that makes it quite clear you can have the holy spirit and then go to not having it.

that is in the epistles of John. It is also clear that people who claim to be Christian, aren't always Christian.

And you knowing nothing about the heart of those people and virtually no knowledge of their back ground are in no position to judge. Especially not with the tiny amount of time you have been a Christian. You have a lot of audacity telling someone who has been a Christian for 30-40 years, a genuine believer that he was never a true Christian when what...? you've been one for only a few years? A lot of audacity.

Take a look at what you said again:

"It is also clear that people who claim to be Christian, aren't always Christian."

Why are you so certain that you are a true Christian? You really don't seem like a true Christian to me. Far from it. You could be kidding yourself like you seem to be suggesting I was.

I did what was expected of me when I repented and asked Jesus for forgiveness (as a child of 7 yeras old, full of belief and genuine). I was cleansed and made whole. I was made a new man and given the holy spirit.... unless of course the bible was lying about that. Perhaps the bible was lying about that, MadeNew? Perhaps the bible can't be trusted and even God can't be trusted. We can go for 30-40 years convinced we're saved and yet not really be saved at all. If that can happen to me, maybe it can happen to you too?

I am not going to subject someones own claimed beliefs to scrutiny any more,

But you will continue to label them a false Christian anyway and claim to be absolutely right about it? Excuse me if I don't see much sincerity in your words.

all I'm going to say is that i have shown reasons to believe what i believe, and it isn't based on just my word,

Why do you ignore all the other scriptures?

it is based on evidence from Christianity.

one verse which you is assuming relates to all Christians when it was talking about specific people within a particular church who were anti-Christ and leading people astray.

If we had to take someones word for it, i guess that is ok, but not good for debating on such things.

How about looking at the other many many verses that talk about how it is possible to lose the holy spirit, your salvation and fall back into the world?

I can list some more:

In Psalm 51 King David pleads with God not to take His Holy Spirit from him.

Rev 3:5 states that God will not remove your name from the book of life if you overcome, which then implies that it CAN be removed if you fail to overcome.

Acts 1:25 (Judas WAS an apostle!)

Ezekiel 33:18: When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby

I Corinthians 10:12: Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. (An admonition showing the possibility of apostacy.)

Hebrews 4:11: Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief

Hebrews 12:15: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

[MadeNew]

Im not going to continue to debate wether of not you were a Christian. All i am doing is showing the facts, of what a Christian is, and who would be qualified as a Christian.

Which you haven't done. All you've done is given your opinion and then taken one verse out of context while ignoring all the rest.

. It is clear that people who leave the Faith never belonged to the Faith,

That is your opinion and many verses in the bible go against that claim. I have already provided a solid verse that makes it quite clear you can have the holy spirit and then go to not having it.

that is in the epistles of John. It is also clear that people who claim to be Christian, aren't always Christian.

And you knowing nothing about the heart of those people and virtually no knowledge of their back ground are in no position to judge. Especially not with the tiny amount of time you have been a Christian. You have a lot of audacity telling someone who has been a Christian for 30-40 years, a genuine believer that he was never a true Christian when what...? you've been one for only a few years? A lot of audacity.

Take a look at what you said again:

"It is also clear that people who claim to be Christian, aren't always Christian."

Why are you so certain that you are a true Christian? You really don't seem like a true Christian to me. Far from it. You could be kidding yourself like you seem to be suggesting I was.

I did what was expected of me when I repented and asked Jesus for forgiveness (as a child of 7 yeras old, full of belief and genuine). I was cleansed and made whole. I was made a new man and given the holy spirit.... unless of course the bible was lying about that. Perhaps the bible was lying about that, MadeNew? Perhaps the bible can't be trusted and even God can't be trusted. We can go for 30-40 years convinced we're saved and yet not really be saved at all. If that can happen to me, maybe it can happen to you too?

I am not going to subject someones own claimed beliefs to scrutiny any more,

But you will continue to label them a false Christian anyway and claim to be absolutely right about it? Excuse me if I don't see much sincerity in your words.

all I'm going to say is that i have shown reasons to believe what i believe, and it isn't based on just my word,

Why do you ignore all the other scriptures?

it is based on evidence from Christianity.

one verse which you is assuming relates to all Christians when it was talking about specific people within a particular church who were anti-Christ and leading people astray.

If we had to take someones word for it, i guess that is ok, but not good for debating on such things.

How about looking at the other many many verses that talk about how it is possible to lose the holy spirit, your salvation and fall back into the world?

I can list some more:

In Psalm 51 King David pleads with God not to take His Holy Spirit from him.

Rev 3:5 states that God will not remove your name from the book of life if you overcome, which then implies that it CAN be removed if you fail to overcome.

Acts 1:25 (Judas WAS an apostle!)

Ezekiel 33:18: When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby

I Corinthians 10:12: Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. (An admonition showing the possibility of apostacy.)

Hebrews 4:11: Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief

Hebrews 12:15: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

Ok im not interested in debating something that i am just going to have to take your word for it. I don't know you, i don't know your past, and i have no reason to believe you other then just at face value. What i believe in is Christianity, i believe in the scripture. Even the parable of the sower tells us of the people of seed on the rocky ground, hearing the word with joy but then falling away because of the world. Do i believe they are "true Christians"? Maybe God will be that judge, but by rejecting Christ that shows evidence of embedding the spirit of the antiChrist, just like the epistles of John says.. And i don't believe this was only for a specific people, this can be applied to anyone, just like all the scripture.

And ya, maybe you were a perfect Christian... Im not aloud to even debate against that, so i won't...

Im a sinner, i have never been a perfect Christian, and i will probably never be one... "Just As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one""

Thank God for the grace of Christ! Not everyone believes that, but i sure do.

[MadeNew]

22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist(1 John 2:22)

Ya, I guess thats pretty specific, about a certain group of people, "whoever" really narrows it down...

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 97 by MadeNew]

Ok im not interested in debating something that i am just going to have to take your word for it. I don't know you, i don't know your past, and i have no reason to believe you other then just at face value. What i believe in is Christianity, i believe in the scripture.

[center]You seem to require a good reason to believe what people say. Does your belief in Christianity guarantee that Christianity is true?[/center]

[Justin108]

Ok im not interested in debating something that i am just going to have to take your word for it. I don't know you, i don't know your past, and i have no reason to believe you other then just at face value. What i believe in is Christianity, i believe in the scripture.

You would rather believe the supernatural claims of ancient people than a man's natural claims of his own belief?

OnceConvinced: I used to believe something. I don't anymore though
MadeNew: I refuse to believe that!

Numbers 22:28: Then the donkey started talking
MadeNew: Sounds reasonable