Is Matthew 21:22 blatantly wrong?

[Justin108]

Matthew 21:22 - "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

[JehovahsWitness]

Well my point is not to discuss what those restrictions would be but to acknowledge the possibility that there ARE restrictions.

Unless you have a good reason to exclude limb-regeneration from your list of prayers-god-will-grant, simply saying "there are limits" is not enough. .

It is for me since my aim was simply to establish that limits are implicit in Matthew 21:22. In your own words...

We can assume that "whatever" in the context of Matthew 21, assuming God's character as moral, would exclude evil prayers.

You have, with your words above, implied the only point that I am here to make. "Whatever" does not necessarily mean "no exceptions". I don't care to pursue the objective discussion of what those limits might be. I might with somebody else, in another thread, in another mood but not here, not with you and not today.

Enjoy the rest of your thread.


JW

[KingandPriest]

[Replying to post 1 by Justin108]

First I want to introduce context to this debate. In grade school we all should have learned how to use context clues to help us understand the meaning of a word or a sentence.

Matthew 21:22 is part of a story which brings context and clarity. Lets look at the full story, and the proper context so we don't jump making accusations of when a prayer should be approved, or when it should be denied.

Matthew 21 gives us the writers perspective and memory of sequence of events. Mark also records this story and gives us additional details that Matthew either didn't remember or had a different perspective. (Every eye witness always has a different perspective to an event) Here is the story from both perspectives

Matthew 21:18-22

18 Now in the morning, as He returned to the city, He was hungry.
19 And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, “Let no fruit grow on you ever again.� Immediately the fig tree withered away.
20 And when the disciples saw it, they marveled, saying, “How did the fig tree wither away so soon?�
21 So Jesus answered and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ it will be done.
22 And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.�

Mark 11:12-14 and 20-25

12 Now the next day, when they had come out from Bethany, He was hungry.
13 And seeing from afar a fig tree having leaves, He went to see if perhaps He would find something on it. When He came to it, He found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs.
14 In response Jesus said to it, “Let no one eat fruit from you ever again.� And His disciples heard it.

20 Now in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.
21 And Peter, remembering, said to Him, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree which You cursed has withered away.�
22 So Jesus answered and said to them, “Have faith in God.
23 For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says.
24 Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them.
25 “And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses.
26 But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses.."

So what do we see here. It is not a simple 1:1 correlation that what ever you ask for, you will get. No magic or a genie which grants wishes.

Matthew 21:21 adds stipulations on which prayer is qualified. "if you have faith and do not doubt."
Mark 11:25 also adds a qualifier "And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him"

Doubt and un-forgiveness are two of the main things that "block" or hinder a persons prayers from being approved. Yes there are people who have prayed for children on their death bed. In some cases they read Matthew 21:22 and believed God for a miracle. During this same time, there may be un-forgiveness in their heart about an issue in their past with another family member or friend. The bible makes clear references that doubt or a lack of forgiveness will hinder ones prayer from being approved.

A clean heart (lack of doubt, un-forgiveness, unrighteous) has been and remains the requirement for a prayer to be answered.

If you cherry pick a scripture without context this type of error will occur and has occurred in countless homes and churches throughout history. One of the best tools available today to help us reduce this type of error is a Chronological bible. http://www.barnesandnoble.com/p/chronol ... kid=3x3401
This bible takes the events from everywhere in the bible and groups them in chronological order so it is easier to put scripture in proper context, and gain understanding.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 52 by KingandPriest]

Yes there are people who have prayed for children on their death bed. In some cases they read Matthew 21:22 and believed God for a miracle. During this same time, there may be un-forgiveness in their heart about an issue in their past with another family member or friend. The bible makes clear references that doubt or a lack of forgiveness will hinder ones prayer from being approved.

If you honestly believe this of the god you believe in, then well...how can I say it? Your god is is a douchebag.
Human doctors will attempt to heal the child and most importantly, will not demand of the parents to not have doubt or to forgive everyone. They will just go about their job.
However, apparently your god won't heal children on deathbeds, unless the parents have no doubt and forgive everyone.

[KingandPriest]

[Replying to post 52 by KingandPriest]

Yes there are people who have prayed for children on their death bed. In some cases they read Matthew 21:22 and believed God for a miracle. During this same time, there may be un-forgiveness in their heart about an issue in their past with another family member or friend. The bible makes clear references that doubt or a lack of forgiveness will hinder ones prayer from being approved.

If you honestly believe this of the god you believe in, then well...how can I say it? Your god is is a douchebag.
Human doctors will attempt to heal the child and most importantly, will not demand of the parents to not have doubt or to forgive everyone. They will just go about their job.
However, apparently your god won't heal children on deathbeds, unless the parents have no doubt and forgive everyone.

Thank you for inserting you opinion and personal feelings. To the actual question posted: Was Matthew 21:22 blatantly wrong?, I believe I have proven that it is not false at all.

[Justin108]

It is for me since my aim was simply to establish that limits are implicit in Matthew 21:22

We have concluded that there are limits to Matthew 21:22. We have not concluded that limb regeneration is one such limit.

If this were a murder trial and you were on the defense, your argument would look like this:

Defense: "Your honor, there are instances where killing a man is not murder, such as cases of self-defense"
Prosecution: "Is there any evidence that your client, the one guilty of killing a man, did so in self defense?"
Defense: "No. My only argument is that there are instances where killing a man is not murder. I rest my case"

[Justin108]

[Replying to post 52 by KingandPriest]
Are you saying that every single person who has ever prayed for their limbs to grow back is guilty of either insufficient belief, or lack of forgiveness? There isn't a single believing, forgiving person in recorded history who has prayed for his limbs to grow back?

[marco]

Matthew 21:22 - "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

The previous statement in Matthew: "Verily I say unto you, if ye have faith and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if you say unto the mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done."

It is such a pity that one of the listeners didn't ask for a verification of this last suggestion. Given that Christ offers this, we cannot take what he says literally. In his characteristically vulpine way, he is designating the depth of faith one must have to be a true believer. The outcome of that faith is of no consequence. When Catholics eat the communion wafer they believe that it is the actual body of Christ, and for them it is. So faith produces a metamorphosis. In the same way if someone asks for X then they get X even though to all appearances they are still missing this X factor.

This type of reasoning is what faith is all about. Again and again we see demonstrations here, of how to make black into white, scripturally.

[KingandPriest]

[Replying to post 56 by Justin108]

Are you saying that every single person who has ever prayed for their limbs to grow back is guilty of either insufficient belief, or lack of forgiveness? There isn't a single believing, forgiving person in recorded history who has prayed for his limbs to grow back?

First off, there is no way of knowing that every single person who has ever prayed for their limbs to grow back did not have this occur. Not every miracle has been recorded. Additionally, we know historical records have been destroyed all over the world. It is possible that this has happened before.

Secondly, what I am saying is that no human person is able to identify when all criteria is met. How do I know if a person has doubt or not? Only God knows. How do I know if a person is still holding unforgiveness in their heart. I cannot. Only God knows a persons heart and their thoughts.

[marco]

First off, there is no way of knowing that every single person who has ever prayed for their limbs to grow back did not have this occur. Not every miracle has been recorded. Additionally, we know historical records have been destroyed all over the world. It is possible that this has happened before.

Secondly, what I am saying is that no human person is able to identify when all criteria is met. How do I know if a person has doubt or not? Only God knows. How do I know if a person is still holding unforgiveness in their heart. I cannot. Only God knows a persons heart and their thoughts.

You are absolutely correct.

What is not correct, however, is the making of a statement: "You will get what you pray" for when what you say applies, thus making the statement into: "You are fairly certain NOT to get what you pray for."

A salesman making such a claim would be called fraudulent.

[Justin108]

First off, there is no way of knowing that every single person who has ever prayed for their limbs to grow back did not have this occur.

It certainly didn't occur in the last thousand years or so or there would have been some kind of record for it. Unless it happened on some kind of remote Island. So if we assume it happened, we must also assume that either
a) It happened a long time ago before news coverage existed
b) It happened in a remote location, far from civilization
c) The person who it happened to hid it from the rest of the world
d) That records of it happening were destroyed

This is also assuming that it happened once. If it did happen several times, it becomes increasingly less likely that one of the above excuses is the reason we've never heard of it.

Secondly, what I am saying is that no human person is able to identify when all criteria is met.

It's statistically highly unlikely that there is not a single recorded instance of the criteria being met