Why is faith a virtue ?

[McCulloch]

Why is faith a virtue?

Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."
Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

According to the Christians, God created humans. According to science, humans have really big brains, relative to the expected brain size based on other species and body size. With these really big brains, we can assess information, evaluate options, pose difficult questions and collaborate on answers thereby combining the power of our brains.

But according to some Christians, on this site and elsewhere, God does not want humans to use our brains with regard to him. He wants humans to choose to believe in him without sufficient evidence to rationally conclude that he exists. In science, this kind of faith, acceptance of assertions as fact without supporting evidence, is not considered a virtue. Yet, in the area of religion it is good to have faith (so long as your faith is the correct faith).

Why ?

[youngborean]

I really didn't intend my statements to be accusatory or the like. I really don't think it's too elusive either. It only requires an open heart and mind towards spirituality. However, it would realistically be elusive to someone who already has their mind made up. The righteousness issue is similar and is relavant those that believe in a conception of righteousness in something.

[Confused]

I really didn't intend my statements to be accusatory or the like. I really don't think it's too elusive either. It only requires an open heart and mind towards spirituality. However, it would realistically be elusive to someone who already has their mind made up. The righteousness issue is similar and is relavant those that believe in a conception of righteousness in something.

I didn't intend to imply they were accusatory. And I do believe you when you say they would be elusive to someone who already has their mind made up. But if you imply that I fall into this group, then you havn't read enough of my posts on other threads yet. I don't. I fall into the category that would love to be able to take that faith you have and beleive in god and everything else. I would love to find that peace you all seem to have. But so far it elludes me. I can only say that there isn't enough information to make an informed decision one way or the other and for me, believing in the wrong thing is worse than believing in nothing at all.

[McCulloch]

Thank you, youngborean for that attempt. I will accept, for the time being, that faith is a gift from God, something that we cannot get except by some sort of divine intervention. What does that mean? God wants to have a relationship with us, so he bypasses our natural skepticism and our ability to evaluate evidence. And somehow, this reduction of our intellect is a virtuous thing. Forgive me, but I still don't get it.

I guess I will bite. Faith is a virtue because it is an attribute of God. It is simply a sign in people that God has opened a relationship with that person. That special relationship is virtuous because it causes that particular person to behave in a new way. In my study of the NT, I would argue that Faith is never something someone conjures up with their own will (in relation to intellectual pursuits), but rather it is something elemental that is imparted to humans by God. So I think the contrast to Intellect in that faith is invented may be true, but it is not represented clearly that way in scripture. The best scriptural reference I can offer to someone is to looking into the scriptural representation of faith should start in Ephesians.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The experience of the power of God is the only way to receive faith.

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

If you don't have the experience, clearly you will have no faith. The faith received in confession of the power of God reminds us of a great salvation through the righteous works of Jesus, that is clearly why it is virtuous.

[QED]

That beleif of faith allowed some people to continue with the sufferings of day to day life. That same faith continues today. It allows people to accept what they can't explain and live with their day to day suffering because they know something great is awaiting them in the after life. I realize the government themselves are the ones who crucified christ, but it seems to me, christ did them a favor with this faith thing. He never preached to stand up for rights of humanity or equality. Just accept your meager existence until your time is up and your faith will take to to evelasting harmony.

Suspicious ain't it! I've always found it hard to see religion as much more than an effective form of "crowd control". Give 'em what they want and they'll go peacefully. How many cynical mutterings of "well done lad -- you'll get your reward in heaven" have there been down through the ages I wonder?

Faith is the glue that holds the system together. No wonder we are told that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." A Freudian slip if ever there was in my view. Man's word is so powerful I regularly see people here celebrating the fact that the bible is true because it tells them as much in print.

What I'm painting here could obviously be construed as a picture of some grand deceit. No doubt this will not go down too well with the religiously minded but a simple question springs to my mind: just how can we tell that it is not so?

Oh, I was forgetting of course; we can't tell! it's only by having faith that we get our rewards.

[Confused]

That beleif of faith allowed some people to continue with the sufferings of day to day life. That same faith continues today. It allows people to accept what they can't explain and live with their day to day suffering because they know something great is awaiting them in the after life. I realize the government themselves are the ones who crucified christ, but it seems to me, christ did them a favor with this faith thing. He never preached to stand up for rights of humanity or equality. Just accept your meager existence until your time is up and your faith will take to to evelasting harmony.

Suspicious ain't it! I've always found it hard to see religion as much more than an effective form of "crowd control". Give 'em what they want and they'll go peacefully. How many cynical mutterings of "well done lad -- you'll get your reward in heaven" have there been down through the ages I wonder?

Faith is the glue that holds the system together. No wonder we are told that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." A Freudian slip if ever there was in my view. Man's word is so powerful I regularly see people here celebrating the fact that the bible is true because it tells them as much in print.

What I'm painting here could obviously be construed as a picture of some grand deceit. No doubt this will not go down too well with the religiously minded but a simple question springs to my mind: just how can we tell that it is not so?

Oh, I was forgetting of course; we can't tell! it's only by having faith that we get our rewards.

There have been many times that I have sat back and thought, how convenient that Christ taught how to be grateful for what you have, to live with the daily sufferings and remember that your reward will be gained with eternal life while the wicked are punished. Now, I am not usually one to lead towards the conspiracy theory and generally I look at these people like they are aliens, but funny how Christ didn't advocate a revolt against those who were making life miserable. He advocated accepting the misery because at death, the rewards are worth it. Now, I know, the Romans crucified Christ which pretty much negates the conspiracy that the monarch sent him amongst the people to ensure compliance, and I am not suggesting they did, especially since that is totally off the point of this thread, but it is one of those things that makes you go hmmmmm.

[Goat]

There have been many times that I have sat back and thought, how convenient that Christ taught how to be grateful for what you have, to live with the daily sufferings and remember that your reward will be gained with eternal life while the wicked are punished. Now, I am not usually one to lead towards the conspiracy theory and generally I look at these people like they are aliens, but funny how Christ didn't advocate a revolt against those who were making life miserable. He advocated accepting the misery because at death, the rewards are worth it. Now, I know, the Romans crucified Christ which pretty much negates the conspiracy that the monarch sent him amongst the people to ensure compliance, and I am not suggesting they did, especially since that is totally off the point of this thread, but it is one of those things that makes you go hmmmmm.

One point I will make is that there were many many other writings about Jesus. The ones that made it into the Canon just so happened to be picked a group of people chosen to look at it by an Emporer of Rome.

Doesn't that make more sense now?

[Confused]

There have been many times that I have sat back and thought, how convenient that Christ taught how to be grateful for what you have, to live with the daily sufferings and remember that your reward will be gained with eternal life while the wicked are punished. Now, I am not usually one to lead towards the conspiracy theory and generally I look at these people like they are aliens, but funny how Christ didn't advocate a revolt against those who were making life miserable. He advocated accepting the misery because at death, the rewards are worth it. Now, I know, the Romans crucified Christ which pretty much negates the conspiracy that the monarch sent him amongst the people to ensure compliance, and I am not suggesting they did, especially since that is totally off the point of this thread, but it is one of those things that makes you go hmmmmm.

One point I will make is that there were many many other writings about Jesus. The ones that made it into the Canon just so happened to be picked a group of people chosen to look at it by an Emporer of Rome.

Doesn't that make more sense now?

That dependes, is it suppose to lend more sense to the "conspiracy theory", or only the ones that encouraged tolerating unjust rule were decided to be true writings about christ.l

[samuelbb7]

But according to some Christians, on this site and elsewhere, God does not want humans to use our brains with regard to him. He wants humans to choose to believe in him without sufficient evidence to rationally conclude that he exists. In science, this kind of faith, acceptance of assertions as fact without supporting evidence, is not considered a virtue. Yet, in the area of religion it is good to have faith (so long as your faith is the correct faith).

I am glad you stated some Christians. I do believe that GOD wants us to use our brain.

At the same time I also believe that faith is a gift of GOD for the evidence that convinces me is insufficient to convince others. I have no other reason for this except that GOD reaches out to all but some refuse.

Yet I also agree that many people believe many things not just Christians on the basis of their faith. People who believe in Aliens from outer space have faith as well as Pagans who believe in Thor and Zeus. Or people who believe in ghosts. As a race we are not generally logic driven for the majority of people.

Speaking of logic how abut Zen Buddism the sound of one hand clapping?

[Confused]

But according to some Christians, on this site and elsewhere, God does not want humans to use our brains with regard to him. He wants humans to choose to believe in him without sufficient evidence to rationally conclude that he exists. In science, this kind of faith, acceptance of assertions as fact without supporting evidence, is not considered a virtue. Yet, in the area of religion it is good to have faith (so long as your faith is the correct faith).

I am glad you stated some Christians. I do believe that GOD wants us to use our brain.

At the same time I also believe that faith is a gift of GOD for the evidence that convinces me is insufficient to convince others. I have no other reason for this except that GOD reaches out to all but some refuse.

Yet I also agree that many people believe many things not just Christians on the basis of their faith. People who believe in Aliens from outer space have faith as well as Pagans who believe in Thor and Zeus. Or people who believe in ghosts. As a race we are not generally logic driven for the majority of people.

Speaking of logic how abut Zen Buddism the sound of one hand clapping?

Let me thank you for your post. It is one the few posts given to those of us who aren't quite sure if their is or isn't a God yet that isn't condescending.. You admit that your faith is sufficient for you and you alone. You don't put it in the context of "duh, if I can see it why cant you? Your either an idiot or you refuse to see it". For this, I grant you 50 tokens.

[samuelbb7]

Dear Confused.

Thank you. I am just trying to be honest. I pray GOD will bless you.

By the way. Tokens what are they a measure of or what are they for?

Sam