CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
"trinity ...1. [cap.] Theol. The union of three persons or hypostases (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons or hypostases as to individuality. 2. Any symbol of the Trinity in art. 3. Any union of three in one; a triad; as the Hindu trinity, or Trimurti." - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam Co., 1961. (emphasis added by me.)
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Athanasian Creed:
"And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
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"Trinity, the Most Holy
"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.
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The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.
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Challenges from scripture itself:
(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.
(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."
(Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly described with the word one or its equivalent - alone, only, etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to Jesus is the Christ or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:
YHWH is the Son, or YHWH is the Firstborn, or, YHWH is the Messiah (or Christ), or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that Jesus is YHWH (the only God according to scripture).
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Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in three distinct persons):
(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God, the Son," (equal to those which declare "God, the Father" " Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)
and,
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(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
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(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, How could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were?
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(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential knowledge of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God
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(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God. - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.
Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God!
CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
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onewithhim
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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #121Your question was to "the Jehovah's Witness." I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses. You asked: "Is God spirit or also flesh?" I answered that question.
Last edited by onewithhim on Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #123[Replying to post 121 by onewithhim]
You answered it, but without support of scripture and did not answer why man is made of flesh and spirit, if God is not both flesh and spirit (see Gen 1:26-27)
You answered it, but without support of scripture and did not answer why man is made of flesh and spirit, if God is not both flesh and spirit (see Gen 1:26-27)
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Checkpoint
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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #124Man is not "made of flesh and spirit".B Bob wrote: [Replying to post 121 by onewithhim]
You answered it, but without support of scripture and did not answer why man is made of flesh and spirit, if God is not both flesh and spirit (see Gen 1:26-27)
Man is made of dust. Genesis 3:19.
Man is a soul that is animated by the breath or spirit of life from God, and lives in a body of flesh. Genesis 2:7.
Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #125[Replying to post 124 by Checkpoint]
Yes, man was formed out of the dust of the ground, but that dust is flesh see Gen 6:3. The breath of life God breathed into man is the same breath of life God breathed into all creatures of the dust of the ground - see Gen 7:22
The breath of life is a type and shadow of Holy Spirit that is baptized into al that truly believe in Jesus Christ).
Yes, man was formed out of the dust of the ground, but that dust is flesh see Gen 6:3. The breath of life God breathed into man is the same breath of life God breathed into all creatures of the dust of the ground - see Gen 7:22
The breath of life is a type and shadow of Holy Spirit that is baptized into al that truly believe in Jesus Christ).
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Checkpoint
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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #126So?B Bob wrote: [Replying to post 124 by Checkpoint]
Yes, man was formed out of the dust of the ground, but that dust is flesh see Gen 6:3. The breath of life God breathed into man is the same breath of life God breathed into all creatures of the dust of the ground - see Gen 7:22
The breath of life is a type and shadow of Holy Spirit that is baptized into al that truly believe in Jesus Christ).
You have yet to provide any biblical evidence that God is also man or also flesh.
Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #127[Replying to post 126 by Checkpoint]
Jesus is God in the flesh. Have you ever read John 1: 1-14. Is not Jehovah of the Old Testament God? Jesus is the Jehovah of the Old Testament. See Jude 1:4. Jude is the brother of Jesus and he understood Jesus was Jehovah that delivered His people out of Egypt see Jude 1:5.
How much clearer can it be than 1 John 5:20. Jesus is the One True God (Jesus is the Holy Spirit (see Peter 1:11) and Jesus was born of a woman and Jesus was before all things (Col 1:17).
I have given several scripture in this post proving Jesus is the Lord God of both the Nerw Testament and Jesus is the one man was made in the image and likeness of in the beginning (fyi: Jesus is the beginning - see Col 1:18) and He is the end (Rev 1:8, 11, 21:6, 22:13). Jesus is Jehovah Isa 41:4, 44:6, 48:12). Jesus is, Ke who was He whpo is, and He who is evermore (Rev 1:4, 8, Rev 4:8, etc).
I have posted back and forth with several people on here and none have provided scripture to refute all that the Bible says concerning who God is; Jesus Christ, believe it and be saved
Jesus is God in the flesh. Have you ever read John 1: 1-14. Is not Jehovah of the Old Testament God? Jesus is the Jehovah of the Old Testament. See Jude 1:4. Jude is the brother of Jesus and he understood Jesus was Jehovah that delivered His people out of Egypt see Jude 1:5.
How much clearer can it be than 1 John 5:20. Jesus is the One True God (Jesus is the Holy Spirit (see Peter 1:11) and Jesus was born of a woman and Jesus was before all things (Col 1:17).
I have given several scripture in this post proving Jesus is the Lord God of both the Nerw Testament and Jesus is the one man was made in the image and likeness of in the beginning (fyi: Jesus is the beginning - see Col 1:18) and He is the end (Rev 1:8, 11, 21:6, 22:13). Jesus is Jehovah Isa 41:4, 44:6, 48:12). Jesus is, Ke who was He whpo is, and He who is evermore (Rev 1:4, 8, Rev 4:8, etc).
I have posted back and forth with several people on here and none have provided scripture to refute all that the Bible says concerning who God is; Jesus Christ, believe it and be saved
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Checkpoint
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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #128[Replying to post 127 by B Bob]
Your claim right here is "the Bible says concerning who God is; Jesus Christ, believe it and be saved".
What the Bible says about who God is, is best said by the one who really knows, Jesus Christ himself.
You have, but the Bible does not say what you say.I have posted back and forth with several people on here and none have provided scripture to refute all that the Bible says concerning who God is; Jesus Christ, believe it and be saved
Your claim right here is "the Bible says concerning who God is; Jesus Christ, believe it and be saved".
What the Bible says about who God is, is best said by the one who really knows, Jesus Christ himself.
John 17:3:
This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
John 20:
16 Jesus said to her, Mary. She turned and said to him in Aramaic, Rabboni! (which means Teacher).
17 Jesus said to her, Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.
Last edited by Checkpoint on Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #129[Replying to post 128 by Checkpoint]
Did you read the scriptures?
The Bible says "And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20).
Did you read the scriptures?
The Bible says "And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20).
Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #130[Replying to post 128 by Checkpoint]
ll scripture is authored by God. The letters in read or not more important than the letters in black. Jesus said to the seventy, he that heareth you, heareth me.
Hear 1 John 5:20; Jesus Christ is the One True God, in all the glory of God!
ll scripture is authored by God. The letters in read or not more important than the letters in black. Jesus said to the seventy, he that heareth you, heareth me.
Hear 1 John 5:20; Jesus Christ is the One True God, in all the glory of God!
